Pillars of Eternity Beta Discussion [GAME RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[mutonizer]

His suggestion there isn't bad because the Lore skill atm is fucking horrible.

Come on man, how can it not be bad.
I don't mind having some kind bonus xp gain when you fully discover/lore reveal a mob category (though some alternative bonus might be better, accuracy, DT bypass, resist boost, etc), I mean, why not right? But pretending to be answering a demand for combat xp this way is obviously flawed before it's even implemented. Humanoids and other special characters don't have lore entries so any non "monster type" encounter will still fall in the same issue he's pretending to want to solve, and combat focused groups without lore skill won't get xp (or slower), which doesn't make any sense.

Look, it's simple, the game mechanics as they are currently uses experience points as a representation of how "experienced" a given character is at combat, with a very little bit about how experienced he is at adventuring (with just a couple odd skills thrown in there because..reasons).
- 90% (arbitrary number for effect) of the game mechanics is about nothing but combat.
- All spells are about combat and there is apparently no plan to have any utility spells/talents/abilities whatsoever later on.
- Likewise, itemization is almost entirely based around combat, with just a couple trinkets here and there for dialog based encounters (rope & grapple, etc).
- The current stealth mechanics are designed especially to prevent any alternative form of progression.
- The only non combat mechanic (reputation?) is completely disconnected from character development via experience points.
- the entire resting system is only centered around combat as well and there doesn't seem to be any (or very little) time based story progression which could make it an interesting mechanic outside of combat.
How, with this in place, can anyone justify in any way shape or form not having simple, non overwhelming, combat xp system in place. The entire game is ready for it, it's designed for it...


Now, I don't really care about combat xp per se, as long as the game is designed to offer a credible alternative. If they had plans for an interesting character development process that did not only involve combat related stuff, then it'd be fine: Award xp on quest resolution only (combat or social based), and let players develop their PCs either way (again, combat or social). But that's not what we got here, so yea, it's a problem and it's for sure not gonna be solved by taking two useless mechanics and merging them together.

 

[Copper]

I would have thought the more obvious solution to the meta-relevance of combat would be to tie it into the reputation system as well. Kill all the beetles? Get a unique title for the deed, a reputation for valour / bloodlust / exterminating wildlife, and some butthurt hippies. Alternatively, avoid all the combat, get a reputation for stealth / cowardice, a traveller at your stronghold telling you some randomer was gutted by beetles, or a bad rep with the 'cleanse the wilds for the common man' types.

It shouldn't be that hard to systemise this since the system already tracks kills.

 

[Lhynn]

Combat XP? You mean kiddie babbie mode? Where you have to be given sweeties everytime you do something in game so you feel good about yourself?

So disappointed that Josh isn't sticking to his guns on this. If your combat experience is shit, then fix your combat. Don't polish that turd with combat xp.

So disappointed. Might as well put in romances too because all the babbies are whining.

Shup up you asshole. Xp is not a candy.

 

[Sensuki]

His suggestion there isn't bad because the Lore skill atm is fucking horrible.

How, with this in place, can anyone justify in any way shape or form not having simple, non overwhelming, combat xp system in place. The entire game is ready for it, it's designed for it...

I don't give a shit about how XP is rewarded.

 

[mutonizer]

But you just said "[..]His suggestion there isn't bad because the Lore skill atm is fucking horrible."...
How can you consider it good to fix something you care about (lore skill) using something you don't care about (xp)? Doesn't that mean you won't care about what you cared about? Or that you'd start caring about something you didn't care about, because you care about the thing it originates from even though you didn't care about the thing it would now handle in the first place?



...Or something


Anyway, joking aside, don't care either, it's not gonna save core issues I have with the game anyway. Just discussing the solution proposed, which is silly, period.

 

[Sensuki]

No it's not, although how do you make the Lore skill any better? Because giving XP for uncovering values does make it better, maybe not perfect - but it's a start.

 

[mutonizer]

Why better? It has two design purposes:
- Reveal mob details in the bestiary depending on how many you kill.
- Provide abstract representation of something (probably knowledge?) in dialog options.
Both purposes are fulfilled currently and working as intended, pretty much like other skills really, each with one gimmicky use, and one dialog use.

Now, I think these design purposes and the concept of such "Lore skill" abstraction are stupid, but so are every single skill in the game currently and they're not gonna change that. And I really don't see how "XP" would solve anything.

 

[Sensuki]

Here's the problem: You can look that shit up on the wiki, and not have to bother investing in the Lore skill at all, unless for non-combat purposes.

This nullifies it's combat benefit.

edit: and if you have combat HUD disabled then you can't view the values on the fly when mousing over, which also nullifies its purpose.

 

[tuluse]

Why better? It has two design purposes:
- Reveal mob details in the bestiary depending on how many you kill.
- Provide abstract representation of something (probably knowledge?) in dialog options.
Both purposes are fulfilled currently and working as intended, pretty much like other skills really, each with one gimmicky use, and one dialog use.

Now, I think these design purposes and the concept of such "Lore skill" abstraction are stupid, but so are every single skill in the game currently and they're not gonna change that. And I really don't see how "XP" would solve anything.

The other skills also confer a passive combat bonus. Athletics makes you more resistant to poison for example. So it has gimmicky no resting, dialog/adventure options, and combat bonus.

 

[mutonizer]

The other skills also confer a passive combat bonus. Athletics makes you more resistant to poison for example. So it has gimmicky no resting, dialog/adventure options, and combat bonus.

Where did you pull that one from? Got a link?

Anyway, I see no issue in adding combat related factors for skills, but for lore for example, I'd rather it grant some bonus against a mob type (accuracy, resistance, etc). It'd fit more into the concept I think.

 

[undecaf]

Here's the problem: You can look that shit up on the wiki, and not have to bother investing in the Lore skill at all, unless for non-combat purposes.

Do these things need to be Wiki-proof too? Does someone really do that in the middle of the game (alt tab to check some wiki shit in order to save a few skillpoints, or... print the pages)?

 

[Sensuki]

What if you just remember the values off by heart, why would you invest in the skill on multiple playthroughs? I have a really really good long term memory.

To me it just seems like a shitty combat benefit compared to Survival, Stealth and Mechanics.

I don't see Endurance or Lore's bonuses to be that great. Wouldn't you prefer them to be better ?

 

[FeelTheRads]

Probably games should disconnect you from the internet (except from the DRM server, of course) and disable all the keys not used in the game and only allow reloading to savescum the shitty combat with the shitty stealth system.

Now THAT'S how games are supposed to be played.

 

[imweasel]

Combat XP? You mean kiddie babbie mode? Where you have to be given sweeties everytime you do something in game so you feel good about yourself?

The "big boys" only need their snickers after turning in a quest.

Spoiler

Here's the problem: You can look that shit up on the wiki, and not have to bother investing in the Lore skill at all, unless for non-combat purposes.

This nullifies it's combat benefit.

Yep, the bestiary is too metagamey.

 

[Shannow]

Firstly: I agree with what mutonizer wrote recently.
Secondly: People going back to kill mobs they just spared may be stupid, but it's not a "problem". It's just Sawyer wanting to control how people play, again.

1) Lore:
Mutonizer already said it, give the player slight advantages when fighting creatures they know a lot about (attack, deflection, saving throws, whatever). A little like Blackguards did.

2) I also don't really care about the source of xp, though I slightly favour combat XP to be existant. An ok compromize would be: Slight combat xp (overall only a fraction of quest xp, perhaps 1/3) that gets less the more creatures of a certain kind you kill. EG. the first rats you kill give 5 xp, every 5 rats killed mean -1 xp per rat. Only the first 25 rats give xp. (In addition to whatever (negative) "titles" and reputation you might earn from over the top killing.) Special versions of the creatures could still provide "full" xp. EG. the Rat Diplomat nets 10 xp, no matter how many rats you killed before.

 

[tuluse]

The other skills also confer a passive combat bonus. Athletics makes you more resistant to poison for example. So it has gimmicky no resting, dialog/adventure options, and combat bonus.

Where did you pull that one from? Got a link?

Anyway, I see no issue in adding combat related factors for skills, but for lore for example, I'd rather it grant some bonus against a mob type (accuracy, resistance, etc). It'd fit more into the concept I think.

I confused athletics with survival, but I believe athletics also gives an in combat bonus. Can't recall it right now.

 

[Sensuki]

It governs how long you can last before you become fatigued.

 

[tuluse]

It governs how long you can last before you become fatigued.

I have a semi random question, can you become fatigued mid battle? I think I've only seen happen afterward, but I'm not sure.

 

[mutonizer]

Survival is for potion duration I believe. Not sure what else though? Might be to find more supplies but since you're hard capped on them anyway, not really sure how that goes I haven't encountered it in beta.
Mechanics for secret reveal (only in stealth mode, stealth skill level doesn't matter though) and lock picking (though lock pick items can replace it, but at an extreme cost)
Stealth...no use whatsoever.
Athletics indeed seem to govern the fatigue system so that's really one you'd want reasonably high on everyone I think because otherwise you'll find yourself in tip top resource shape, but with nasty debuffs from "being tired".
Lore help with bestiary entries (though calculation is really odd) only if you kill mobs, not if you spot them. I agree there's no real point, but I'm not a "professional and experienced game designer", so don't ask me

And all skills are hard factors in dialog (as in, you either have the level required and you succeed, or you don't and fail), just like Attributes.

 

[Sensuki]

It governs how long you can last before you become fatigued.

I have a semi random question, can you become fatigued mid battle? I think I've only seen happen afterward, but I'm not sure.

Not sure man, hasn't happened to me yet.

edit: I can check the source code

 

[undecaf]

What if you just remember the values off by heart, why would you invest in the skill on multiple playthroughs? I have a really really good long term memory.

To me it just seems like a shitty combat benefit compared to Survival, Stealth and Mechanics.

I don't see Endurance or Lore's bonuses to be that great. Wouldn't you prefer them to be better ?

Given your commitment to the game, you probably would memorize the bestiary too.
And I sure woud prefer them better, but I think its a bit farout to present wikipedia as a problem in this context.

The slight combat bonuses from better knowledge have already been posed, but does "lore" need to be heavier in combat to begin with, rather than be one of those things that provide [more] heavily outside of it?

 

[Semper]

Secondly: People going back to kill mobs they just spared may be stupid, but it's not a "problem". It's just Sawyer wanting to control how people play, again.

bullshit. you can still go back and kill them. it's just that you won't get double xp out of that behaviour.

 

[Sensuki]

tuluse Doesn't look like it, there are no getFatigueLevel() checks in combat

 

[mastroego]

To me the XP issue is A LOT LESS relevant than the other meaningless (and senseless) deviations, but really the heart of the matter should be trivial.
You do stuff -> you get better at doing stuff.

• BG2 does it (almost anything you do will give you XPs)
• Skyrim does it (almost anything you do will increase the relevant skill)

You want to encourage Stealth play?
Nice, reward successful stealth tactics (as opposed to removing every other reward!). That would actually be an improvement over BG2.
It shouldn't be a great religion war, just logic and common sense translated into a reasonable game mechanic.

 

[mutonizer]

It governs how long you can last before you become fatigued.

I have a semi random question, can you become fatigued mid battle? I think I've only seen happen afterward, but I'm not sure.

From what I could see in the source, it updates a per character counter all the time (and I mean constantly, every frame/second/whatever). If you're out of combat during the update, it's the base rate but if you're in combat, it's a combat rate. Combat rate is derived from base rate and Athletics. There is also I believe a "travel" ratio, I'm guessing for when you change map. And apparently some events can apply fatigue levels to all party members (I'm guessing during dialogs, events, etc).
that means the longer you're taking in "combat mode" (not even actually doing anything), the faster everyone will become fatigued.

Doesn't look like it, there are no getFatigueLevel() checks in combat

It's in CharacterStats, as part of the main CharacterStats.Update(), which is constantly looping I believe.


Edit:
As a note, the mechanic is interesting in that it punishes people not using resources to make combat mode end faster. Kitting and "clever" tactics that are safer but take longer to kill things will be punished because of this mechanic via the fatigue system, since they'll be in combat WAY longer than others...
..though in the end, everyone will end up being forced to rest (around the same point I'm guessing), some because of lack of resources left, others because of fatigue.

Talk about control freak