adrix89
Cipher
Don't tabletop have some games with wounds and stuff instead of HP?
It basically boils back down to HP, just that you have various penalties applied to how many wounds you have. WoD, for example, you basically have 7 HP, with progressively bigger penalties the more damage you take.Don't tabletop have some games with wounds and stuff instead of HP?
Would have mentioned that, but I thought there was some sort of hit point system, just hidden from the player. Feel free to correct me, I might be remembering wrong.Did nobody here play NEO Scavenger?
Yes.Don't tabletop have some games with wounds and stuff instead of HP?
Reminds me of the original Shadowrun using the old d6 system. In one of the novels of the game, the author made a crack at the system, stating that one of the characters has so much dermal implants stuck on that even an Exocet missile would bounce off.So what the Toughness system does is put the emphasis on high damage weapons, those are good, the rest is shit. And boosting your Toughness can make you totally impervious to certain weapons and types of attacks. It's a limited design.
You call it "shit" and yet you have not advanced an alternate system. Interesting. Methinks the lady doth protest too much.Two points:
- Toughness/DT is NOT health system, for all intents and purposes it's an armor system. Toughness as a part of character system - as in stat that can develop as opposed to something conferred by gear, effects or race/template is retarded.
- Any sort of wound system is a HP system. Anything that can be fully described by subtraction/addition to a single variable until dead is a HP system and, by extension, shit.
Armor or Health can be mechanically abstracted in many different ways, and most mechanics can be legitimately used for both. Armor and Health and basically just different layers of "protection against death/failure" and have no intrinsic relation to any particular type of mechanics.Toughness/DT is NOT health system, for all intents and purposes it's an armor system.
I was with you until that point, which is pure bullshit.The big problem with purely numeric simulation is that it basically creates bland, boring combat systems (especially in action RPGs), where you are just essentially comparing two numbers, and the larger number wins.
Bethesda games are not a great example of anything except how to make millions from incredibly dumb, underdeveloped shit.Bethesda games are a great example of this, as their "action" combat simply involves two parties whacking away at each other until the one with higher numbers wins.
Just have them represent luck instead of ability to soak damage. Hits that otherwise would prove fatal end up as close misses or glance off armour for as long as that characeter has enough hp.
Hit Points:The number of points of damage a creature can sustain before death (or optionally, coma), reflecting the creature’s physical endurance, fighting experience, skill, or luck
It is quite unreasonable to assume that as a character gains levels of ability in his or her class that a corresponding gain in actual ability to sustain physical damage takes place. It is preposterous to state such an assumption, for if we are to assume that a man is killed by a sword thrust which does 4 hit points of damage, we must similarly assume that a hero could, on the average, withstand five such thrusts before being slain! Why then the increase in hit points? Because these reflect both the actual physical ability of the character to withstand damage—as indicated by constitution bonuses—and a commensurate increase in such areas as skill in combat and similar life-or-death situations, the “sixth sense” which warns the individual of some otherwise unforeseen events, sheer luck, and the fantastic provisions of magical protections and/or divine protection.
You call it "shit" and yet you have not advanced an alternate system.
LRN2RD, scrub.Sure, HPs are a shitty abstraction.
Some food for your thoughts:
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/hp-less-rpg-combat.22602/
https://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/ind...bers-break-immersion.27788/page-2#post-637005
https://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/ind...g-is-fucking-stupid.66831/page-3#post-1876585
https://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/damage-cap.76748/
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...tative-descriptions.41232/page-4#post-1151482
Knock yourselves out.
As usual, there two purposes to health system - gamist and simulationist.Armor or Health can be mechanically abstracted in many different ways, and most mechanics can be legitimately used for both. Armor and Health and basically just different layers of "protection against death/failure" and have no intrinsic relation to any particular type of mechanics.Toughness/DT is NOT health system, for all intents and purposes it's an armor system.
And it's generally agreed to be a worse game because of that.For example, Divinity Original Sin 2 has HP mechanics for armor
If you don't express armour and health as separate mechanics, you lose ability to differentiate between armour and health using mechanics. So you no longer can, for example have, say, an orcish barbarian and fully armoured knight that behave differently and require different tactics.Armor and Health do not need to be mechanically realized in a particular way to be armor or health, your fixed view only expresses your habits and preferences.
Linking to a bunch of threads is not advancing an alternate system. It is shotgunning in the dark and hoping for a hit.LRN2RD, scrub.
Don't you think it's a too hardcore feature which could force players to ragequit when a party member can loose his arm, leg or even be cut in two ?:You can have wounds to certain body parts like in Rimworld or Unreal World. That doesn't get rid of hp entirely (each body part has its own hp) but it makes a hell of a lot more sense than games where you can still fight at 100% effectiveness when you're 99% dead.
Yes.Don't tabletop have some games with wounds and stuff instead of HP?
One of the most known type is a Damage Threshold system.
In Savage Worlds, for example, characters have a Toughness rating (influenced by Vigor skill and armor). Damage is rolled against it. If damage is below the Toughness, it does nothing, if it is close to it, it Stuns the enemy, and if higher it deals a Wound (double stun = a wound). Each wound gives a cumulative -1 to all rolls, 3 wounds = Dying + Injury (you roll on an Injury table to see where the wound is localized and what effect it has -- it can be pretty brutal, possible permanent stat reduction). Red shirt enemies often can only have 1 wound and then they're out.
:russiastronk:Did nobody here play NEO Scavenger?
Of course, the downside in this case is that character will survive arbitrary number of heavy wounds.2. The first generalization is to consider any well-founded linear order instead of just natural numbers. Then we can have just general categories like death < critical wound < heavy wound < light wound < a-okay.
3. Once we look at arbitrary linear orders, it makes sense to consider other operators. If we use min instead of subtraction, we get the system Spectacle describes.
That would be quite close to the second (state machine) concept I have proposed, although I have seen it as a more general directed graph with arcs associated with sets of effects that would move the state machine from one state to another.8. Alternatively, we could go back to point 2 and instead generalize from a linear order to a partial order or even Boolean algebra. Among other things, this would allow for a more elaborate wound system such that if a user already has "broken arm" and "concussion", they automatically also have the least upper bound of the two, which would be, say, "comatose".
Now, that probably won't be too useful for your typical damage system and there are probably better ways of realizing AI. Might be interesting for some particularly bizarre enemies, though.9. If you want to get really creative, you'll move to cyclic structures, e.g. the algebra of natural numbers modulo n. This is more like a dial that you can cycle through several positions. For instance, attacks would no longer do damage but rather cycle the status of enemies. So an animal might switch between fearful and blind rage. If you combine that with a system where certain statuses like rage spread through a mob, a fight can turn into a puzzle of how to get all the enemies into a fearful state so that they flee/surrender.
The main sin of cRPGs is that, due to their PnP RPG heritage where all calculations had to be explicit, simple and human compatible, dashboard is treated as equivalent to the engine. This is folly as this severely limits the complexity of the mechanics. The game shouldn't be obliged to provide exact information of its working to the player, and in most genres it just doesn't. As long as player can make sense of what's happening, for example because it is based on RL to a sufficient degree for player to use their built-in heuristics known as "experience" and "intuition", all is well.Quite generally, the world is your oyster once you're willing to think a bit outside the box. But the more outside the box you think, the harder it will be for the player to understand how the system works. I think for cRPGs that can be offset by good UI design and explicit information about the possible results of any given decision, but few cRPGs are so heavy on mechanics that all the extra effort would have a sufficiently large pay-off compared to just an HP system.
See above.I welcome any innovation e.g. wounds systems in games such as Copper Dreams/Neo Scavenger. However, there is nothing inherently wrong with HP.