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Atlus Persona 5

Kem0sabe

Arcane
Joined
Mar 7, 2011
Messages
13,094
Location
Azores Islands
Dungeon sp stops being a problem once you have a huge supply of coffee / curry from sexy teacher waifu, and buy the 50k sp trinkets from creepy doctor waifu, at least so far in the 4th dungeon. (pyramid was so easy, I did it in a single run, up to calling card).

The social elements are harder to manage than the dungeon crawling, but with so many characters to connect to, I feel that a completionist run is very hard first time around, without following a guide religiously.

So, with stats transitioning to new game plus, that cuts a lot of filler, and is ideal for a second more relaxed run, a few months from now... Because this is such a time consuming game that I can't see myself playing it again so soon.
 

Hobo Elf

Arcane
Joined
Feb 17, 2009
Messages
14,039
Location
Platypus Planet
Fatlus, pls. Why did you have to go and make Susano-o an ultimate persona again? Also, best girl has finally been located and confirmed. It's none other than Haru. Don't believe me? Try using her in your party when you get the chance and have leveled her up a bit. Her gun skills annihilate boss fights. Speaking of party members, Yusuke and Makoto were pretty good in the mid point of the game, but they get pretty mediocre toward the end. They both lack Focus and Charge, which makes Ryuji and Ann superior choices, though the game isn't so hard that you have to optimize so much I guess. I felt like I wasted my time doing Makoto's confidant however. Got a shit ultimate Persona from it and it was easily the most boring confidant plot line in the game. I'm trying to do Ann's now before my time is up and so far her's is much more focused i.e actually focused on Ann as a character instead of just pissing in the wind, which is what Makoto's confidance felt like to me.
 
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Cromwell

Arcane
Joined
Feb 16, 2013
Messages
5,443
So something I noticed: Once you get enough players where you have to select your "starting line up" of people you want to take inside dungeons there seems to be a big difference between P4 and P5. In P5 let's say you go in with Morgana and then switch her/him/it out with Ann. Even though you haven't used Ann yet in battle it seems to adopt the same SP that Morgana had before the switch. In P4, when you switched whoever you brought in had unique SP. So if you switched Ann for Morgana you'd be bringing in someone with full SP.

Does anyone else remember this being the case? I thought this was kinda weird.

You must have got that wrong. They all have their own sp and you can use them as backup. I did exactly that, the only sp they lose is if you use their skills for examle auto heal, I dont know if you can influence whose heal it uses but that costs sp.

There's also several times in other dungeons where something happens that you have to do something in the real world and it means pushing the game forward a day unexpectedly. I mean, if you don't see this coming, which you can't, the calendar is not going to help prevent it.

Only in the second I am in the fifth and 1/3/4/5 can be done in two days, one for the dungeon and one for the card.
 

yes plz

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jul 14, 2008
Messages
2,159
Pathfinder: Wrath
I hate how often you're locked out of your evenings for no reason other than Morgana says you're too tired.

"You can't go out, you're too tired. Shouldn't you go to sleep?"

Fuck you, cat, I wanna go raise my charm by sitting in a public bath with some old men.
 
Joined
Apr 5, 2013
Messages
2,434
It's weird to find a gaem that met such high expectation as Persona 5... for me last time was... Quake 3 in late '99 / early 2000.

Seriously, only things that annoys me are too many loading screens between locations and too fucking long tutorial for filthy casuals who have never played any SMT before.
 

Red Rogue

Learned
Joined
Dec 6, 2015
Messages
148
Location
The Squat Rack
Anyone else get suckered into that bullshit fortune teller confidant? The bonuses aren't even that great and I'm out 100 grand with no benefit until I go into mementos. I wish I would't spent that money on SP/HP Regen stuff at Takemis.
 

Hobo Elf

Arcane
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Feb 17, 2009
Messages
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Location
Platypus Planet
Thank god no. Worst confidant ever. Shit personae all across the board and useless confidant abilities.
763fe1e5-992d-4f6e-9f89-1b53ebedb750
 
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Kem0sabe

Arcane
Joined
Mar 7, 2011
Messages
13,094
Location
Azores Islands
I'm in October, after all the shit hits the fan, and I can't go into mementos, need to hit a target there for waifu, but it keeps saying I need Intel...

None of the mementos have the question mark to gather real world Intel, all have the difficulty grade, still can't get inside.
 

Nryn

Cipher
Patron
Joined
Jun 15, 2013
Messages
255
Divinity: Original Sin 2
My reaction on finishing the 6th palace: great plotting and mindfucks resulting from clever use of the setting.
My reaction on almost finishing the 7th palace: absolutely abysmal and contradictory writing that undermines several characters and their game-long arcs.

I don't think I'm near the end, so I still hope the writing recovers from its 7th palace stumble.
 

GarlandExCon

Arcane
Joined
May 19, 2014
Messages
6,983
You must have got that wrong. They all have their own sp and you can use them as backup. I did exactly that, the only sp they lose is if you use their skills for examle auto heal, I dont know if you can influence whose heal it uses but that costs sp.



Only in the second I am in the fifth and 1/3/4/5 can be done in two days, one for the dungeon and one for the card.

I don't know but I swear that's what happened. I thought it was weird. Maybe it was a glitch or something. I'm going to try next time and see.

I hate how often you're locked out of your evenings for no reason other than Morgana says you're too tired.

"You can't go out, you're too tired. Shouldn't you go to sleep?"

Fuck you, cat, I wanna go raise my charm by sitting in a public bath with some old men.

Fucking agreed. Great article on this: http://kotaku.com/stop-making-me-go-to-bed-persona-5-im-a-big-boy-1794234751

Stop Making Me Go To Bed, Persona 5, I'm A Big Boy

kku6l8wo74rr0mgksi0x.jpg



Here’s a bad thing about a very good video game: there are too many nights inPersona 5 where I want to go out on the town and improve myself and hang out with my sexy teen friends, but I’m not allowed, because a talking cat thinks I need some sleep.


Here’s how it works: there are a lot of times in this game when, having gone through a dungeon or hit a major story point, you end up back in your room while the night is still young. On normal days, the “Evening” phase of Persona 5 is a good time to hit the streets of Shinjuku or Shibuya, eat a giant burger, play some Shogi, go fishing or watch a movie.

On post-dungeon days, though, you’re barred from going out. Any attempt to leave Cafe LeBlanc, or even read a book inside it, will be met with absolute resistance in the form of Morgana, your talking cat sidekick, who will utter the words that will haunt most of the rest of your time with this game:

You must be tired after today.

Let’s go to sleep.

When these are uttered, you are barred from doing absolutely anything but going to bed. No study. No tool-making. No training. No games. Just straight to bed with you, boy, no arguments, and no supper either. In a game that’s all about choices and options regarding how you spend your time, every time Morgana throws on the shackles it’s a massive frustration.

Not just because you’re supposed to be playing a young adult who, at any other time in the game, is allowed to lock up the shop, have girls over, wander red light districts, visit bars and, you know, infiltrate people’s hearts and save the world.


Persona Isn't A Game About Sexy Teens, It's A Game About Time
I just finished a marathon few months where, having been previously unfamiliar with the series, I…Read more

But mostly because, like I’ve talked about before, Persona is a game about time. Namely, making the most of it. There’s a creeping pressure from the moment Persona 5 first begins that you only have a certain number of days before it’s all over, and no matter how slowly you walk around and linger over dialogue options, nothing can stop that calendar progressing.



So every single time you’re given the time to do something, you’re compelled to make the most of it. You agonise over spending time with Makoto (ok maybe not this one that’s an easy decision), or playing some baseball, or taking a bath, because all of it means something, and all of it is important and contributes towards your finite progress in this fleeting video game.

To be dropped in your room at a time when you can normally do something, then told you can’t do anything but hit a button and watch that calendar tick over one more day is agony, made worse if you remember Persona 4 and how it let you trade late nights for exhaustion. And it’s not an isolated occurrence! It happens a lot, all the way through the game, and each time Morgana says it you get angrier at his insistent little head and the lack of a dialogue option that says “um you’re a cat you’re not my mum go away.”


nmbejrpqy7jfxifreoe4.jpg

Cute.


Look, Atlus, we appreciate the gesture. You’re without parents in this game, and your legal guardian always takes off home before the end of a day, so it’s nice having someone around looking out for you.

But this cat looks too much. We’re big boys in a big city doing big things. Sometimes we just want to stay up late and play video games.
 

Cromwell

Arcane
Joined
Feb 16, 2013
Messages
5,443
I would agree that mona can be annoying but wasnt it the same in the other personas 3 onwards, just that you had your own thought bubble saying you should go to bed?

I'm in October, after all the shit hits the fan, and I can't go into mementos, need to hit a target there for waifu, but it keeps saying I need Intel...

None of the mementos have the question mark to gather real world Intel, all have the difficulty grade, still can't get inside.

Futaba? Shouldnt there be a new part of mementos after you finished the 5th and the deadline is over? I swear I murder someone if I have to do another Palace before I can properly make her mine. I hated the 5th one and only managed to do it in minimum time by using up everything i had.
 

Kem0sabe

Arcane
Joined
Mar 7, 2011
Messages
13,094
Location
Azores Islands
I'm already suspecting who the main villain is, or at least who the mysterious shadow man is. The way he appears in the ending of the big bang burger palace, his body stance reminded me of...

The boy detective
 
Joined
Dec 19, 2012
Messages
1,645
Anyone else get suckered into that bullshit fortune teller confidant? The bonuses aren't even that great and I'm out 100 grand with no benefit until I go into mementos. I wish I would't spent that money on SP/HP Regen stuff at Takemis.

Yeah, it's unfortunate. Maybe Fortune personas are decent? I haven't checked.

I was debating making the fortune teller or Makoto my waifu. Probably sticking with Makoto since I bothered to grind out all of the intelligence and charm necessary for it. Some of the cutscenes around Palace 3-4 make me think Makoto is probably the 'canon' choic. as well.

I'm surprised at how much I like the party members in this game overall. I tend to hate 2-3 of them in each Persona game, but they're all great so far. It says a lot that Ann is somehow my least favorite, as far as personality is concerned.
 

Red Rogue

Learned
Joined
Dec 6, 2015
Messages
148
Location
The Squat Rack
Anyone else get suckered into that bullshit fortune teller confidant? The bonuses aren't even that great and I'm out 100 grand with no benefit until I go into mementos. I wish I would't spent that money on SP/HP Regen stuff at Takemis.

Yeah, it's unfortunate. Maybe Fortune personas are decent? I haven't checked.

I was debating making the fortune teller or Makoto my waifu. Probably sticking with Makoto since I bothered to grind out all of the intelligence and charm necessary for it. Some of the cutscenes around Palace 3-4 make me think Makoto is probably the 'canon' choic. as well.

I'm surprised at how much I like the party members in this game overall. I tend to hate 2-3 of them in each Persona game, but they're all great so far. It says a lot that Ann is somehow my least favorite, as far as personality is concerned.

I can only hope the fortune personas are decent at this point. Still, I want my 100 grand back. I think the rest of the game I'm gonna focus on maxing party member confidants for combat bonuses. Maybe Kawakami too, seeing as she can free up some time.

as far as Waifus go: It's a tossup between Makoto and Ann for me. At first I thought it would be a no brainer Ann choice, but then Makoto came along and her confidant hangouts are fucking my shit up, she's very likable.

I have to agree with you overall. I'm really meshing with the party members. Even Yusuke has grown on me a bit. Though, Morgana is annoying as hell when he gets all hot and bothered over Ann. As horribly pathetic as this sounds, I'm ashamed to admit that I'm starting to feel like I'm bonding and growing attached to fake fucking pixels on a screen.
 

yes plz

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Jul 14, 2008
Messages
2,159
Pathfinder: Wrath
In terms of just quantity of scenes, Ann, Makoto, and Kawakami seem to have the most, being the only ones that have both Hawaii trip and school cultural festival scenes.
 

Hobo Elf

Arcane
Joined
Feb 17, 2009
Messages
14,039
Location
Platypus Planet
Everyone should definitely cap out Sun and Moon. Sun is the best Confidant since it gives you access to easy money negotiation skills, a chance to make a persona join without doing the conversation checks and let you recruit persona that are higher lvl than you. The plotline for the Sun confidant was my favorite one as well. Moon is obviously good because of extra XP.
 

Hyperion

Arcane
Joined
Jul 2, 2016
Messages
2,120
Haven't come across all the confidants yet (just reached the Treasure in 2nd Palace). Noticed some don't require you to have a matching Persona at the time, like Morgana's. I'm fairly certain Sun would, but does Moon as well?
 

Makabb

Arcane
Shitposter Bethestard
Joined
Sep 19, 2014
Messages
11,753
Everyone should definitely cap out Sun and Moon. Sun is the best Confidant since it gives you access to easy money negotiation skills, a chance to make a persona join without doing the conversation checks and let you recruit persona that are higher lvl than you. The plotline for the Sun confidant was my favorite one as well. Moon is obviously good because of extra XP.

who has sun and moon ?
 

hemtae

Savant
Patron
Joined
Aug 29, 2014
Messages
149
Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
Haven't come across all the confidants yet (just reached the Treasure in 2nd Palace). Noticed some don't require you to have a matching Persona at the time, like Morgana's. I'm fairly certain Sun would, but does Moon as well?

Sun and Moon don't need matching Personas to advance even though they advance like any other confidant. (Morgana's is plot along with a few others)
 

Lord Romulus

Arcane
Joined
Oct 12, 2014
Messages
765
I'm pretty behind on the game, only just finished the first dungeon. What difficulty are you guys playing on? I started with hard, got annoyed with how certain encounters like Berith could one shot party members and that I couldn't kill them with a single all-out attack, or Archangels doing 100+ damage to my entire party with varja blast. Finally decided to switch to normal when I got to Kamoshida himself. Maybe the game gets easier when you have more options for personas and equipment.
 

Hyperion

Arcane
Joined
Jul 2, 2016
Messages
2,120
Figured Normal would be sufficient for the first playthrough while learning enemy weaknesses and the like. Second Palace was indeed quite a bit easier than the first. Probably could have done it in 1 go even without the forced exit. Against the right enemy combination Normal can still rip your shit up if you misjudge your Baton Passes and 1 mores.
 
Joined
Sep 7, 2013
Messages
6,182
PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire Serpent in the Staglands Bubbles In Memoria A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
I'm pretty behind on the game, only just finished the first dungeon. What difficulty are you guys playing on? I started with hard, got annoyed with how certain encounters like Berith could one shot party members and that I couldn't kill them with a single all-out attack, or Archangels doing 100+ damage to my entire party with varja blast. Finally decided to switch to normal when I got to Kamoshida himself. Maybe the game gets easier when you have more options for personas and equipment.

Started Normal and thought it was too easy. Played Hard and got the Berith treatment, but just rolled my eyes and went with it.
 

Nryn

Cipher
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Joined
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Messages
255
Divinity: Original Sin 2
The credits are rolling after 85 hours, not counting time spent on retries. Broadly speaking, P5 is cut from the same cloth as P4 (haven't played 3 yet), but it makes 3 significant improvements to the formula that made me like the game far more P4 (Spoiler-free):

1. Dungeon design is an order of magnitude better: I loved the fact that each of the multi-hour dungeons had some new twist in the form of dungeon-specific puzzles to go with the handcrafted layouts. The only dungeon that I had issues with was the 7th one that tended to reuse its gimmick over and over without escalating the level of challenge, in a bid to pad out the level. Despite this, the overall quality of the dungeons is the biggest achievement and improvement of P5, and doing the throwaway P4-esque Mementos dungeons only highlights this further. For future sequels P5's dungeons should be the jumping-off point, with improvements coming in the form of more complex layouts, tougher puzzles and so on.

2. The story setup and overall story are more compelling: This is entirely subjective, but P5 does a far better job at setting up the stakes, and making it personal. In the first 5 minutes of the game, the story outright reveals that there is a traitor in our midst, which made me intrigued about finding out how a would-be traitor even infiltrated the PC's group. Apart from this initial hook, both stories follow the same "villain of the month" structure, but with one significant difference -- P5 uses its central "Phantom Thieves" theme in more interesting ways than P4 did with its simplistic whodunit murder mystery; generally speaking, P5 raises questions about the ethicality of the Phantom Thieves' brand of vigilante justice, and showcases how the group itself changes over time with the public opinion. Apart from comparing the story setups of both games, P5 also has far higher storytelling peaks than P4; the story sequence following the 6th palace was the single best narrative moment across both games. Conversely, a story sequence near the end of the 7th palace was the worst both games had to offer. In hindsight, and without giving away spoilers, P5's central narrative theme is more prevalent and better integrated into the plot than P4's is.

3. The NPC confidant S-links have some narrative/setting significance this time around: One of my biggest disappointments with P4 was that its NPC S-links featured stories that had nothing to do with the central narrative or Persona's setting. Specifically, S-links such as the nurse, the old lady, the stepmother, the tutoring kid, etc. were dreadfully uninteresting bits of storytelling that could have been lifted from unrelated slice-of-life stories. They had no relevance to the plot, and they did nothing to aid the world-building of Persona's unique setting. In comparison, P5's NPC confidants are at least tangentially related to the central plot (Politician and Reporter), or feature stories that at least use the game's central ideas of warped desires and require forays into the mementos to complete. These S-links still fare poorly when compared to games known for stellar side quests, but at least I wasn't questioning whether max rank fusion benefits from these S-links were even worth my time, as I was with some of the stinkers from P4's S-links.

Having finished two Persona games for the first time in the space of 6 months, issues with the formula are growing too apparent to ignore:

1. The student life-sim is in desperate need of an overhaul: The most satisfying aspect of the current system is that the available time is finite, and so planning is needed to see most of the S-links. But there are far too many drawbacks in the current implementation:
  • Looking at perfect min-maxing schedule guides for P4 and P5, a player would have only around 1-2 weeks left after completing all the social links, which I find absurdly restrictive. A new player is bound to spend his or her time boosting stats, only to encounter confidant interactions that would have boosted that same stat anyway, leading to a lot of inefficient time use. Moreover, the guides are designed around giving perfect responses to confidants every time -- something that is unreasonable to expect of a new player. These guides also forgo many optional interactions with confidants and other optional activities.
  • It is near impossible to plan out one's schedule more than a few days in advance without prior knowledge. Story sequences frequently restrict one's available free time for multiple days in a row, and the player has no way of knowing when exactly these sequences trigger and for how long. This was especially punishing in P4 due to many confidants disappearing on rainy days in addition to being inaccessible during mandated story sequences.
  • There is far too much downtime as one waits for the next story sequence to start, leading to terrible pacing. The writing tries its best to cover the tedious downtime, but there is only so much it can do before a player notices. In P5, if I didn't do a Palace until the last possible moment, I'd be inundated with group chat messages saying that they stand by my decision but we ought to get a move on. On the other hand, if I completed a Palace well before time, I'd be spammed with group messages being concerned whether the target would have a change of heart. In either case, the writing is just filler, trying to call attention away from the glacial pacing that holds the story hostage.
One solution is to have a lot more free time available for the player so that those moments where the game arbitrarily yanks control away feels far less frustrating. On the other hand, giving too much free time would make the time management aspect meaningless, while still retaining and compounding all the problems with the pacing. Bully's approach to its life sim is relevant as a counterexample here, wherein the main quest progresses the calendar, and not the other way around as it is in Persona, leading to far better pacing. The drawback to the Bully approach is that there is unlimited time available for side activities by not progressing the main plot.

Either way, Persona's structure needs to solve two issues, the solutions to which are seemingly at odds with one another. It needs to find a way to make the life sim aspects feel far more predictable, which could in turn hurt pacing further. On the other hand, it needs to drastically improve its pacing by cutting down the predictable grind of its life sim.

2. Most of the dialogue choices in the main plot are superfluous: I think only 3 or 4 dialogue choices even matter in determining the ending of the game. Of the recent games I've played it's the worst at presenting meaningful dialogue choices. Most options just say the same thing, but phrased differently, without even a change in tone (Typical example from the game: Option A: Let's not continue today. Option B: Let's continue tomorrow). Even the much-maligned Bioware and Bethesda games of recent times look to be better at presenting dialogue choices, and that is particularly damning.

3. The S-Links occur in a vacuum, separate from the main plot: Apart from a couple of simple interactions at the end of P5, S-links don't have any intersection with the main plot at all. The characters in the main plot are written under the assumption that the player has not advanced any of their respective S-links. The end result is that there is little narrative consequence to spending time with these characters, and it's jarring to have characters react as neutral as possible to you during the main story sections, but shortly thereafter, they are far more intimate during their respective S-link interactions.

Wrapping up, P5 fixes some of P4's glaring issues with the dungeon design and S-link relevance, and I enjoyed P5 a lot more than P4 as a result. I hope the next Persona continues this trend by fixing P5's biggest issues, which unfortunately are far more deeply ingrained series-wide issues, some of which don't have an easy solution.
 
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