Patch 1.05 notes

[VentilatorOfDoom]

Offline MMO - sorry guys but this obsession with nerfing balancing classes in a fucking single player game is woefully retarded. Seems there were still some people having fun that needed to be ended.

There's a reason mods like SCS are extremely popular. I'd rather the devs balance their game than abandon it.

SCS is mainly an AI mod, not an attempt to bring, say, the wizard class back in line with the others. Surely you can understand the difference.

 

[Eyestabber]

Offline MMO - sorry guys but this obsession with nerfing balancing classes in a fucking single player game is woefully retarded. Seems there were still some people having fun that needed to be ended.

Listen, and understand. Sawyer is out there. It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until everything has been Balanced™.

Ironically, POE isn't any more 'balanced' than any other RPG of this type.

I'd say it's LESS balanced than BG and NWN 2. Every single class on those games had AT LEAST ONE GIMMICKY build going on for them. PoE's Wizard is just...sad. Sure, he has a couple of good spells (which will soon get nerfed to the ground), but overall the druid just "out-wizard" the Wizard in every possible way. OH, and he also brings STRONG heals to the table AND decent buffs, thus "out-priesting" the priest. Paladin is another sad story: every order is useless, except Wayfarer which is OP as shit with the healspam from kills.

 

[Gord]

Dunno, I found the Wizard quite good. Sure, as a damage-dealer he somewhat sucks, but his CC spells are pretty good. Better than those of the other casters.
Still not exactly perfectly balanced...

 

[Eyestabber]

Dunno, I found the Wizard quite good. Sure, as a damage-dealer he somewhat sucks, but his CC spells are pretty good. Better than those of the other casters.
Still not exactly perfectly balanced...

They ARE good. But then you look at the Cipher's ability to do pretty much the same thing with NO per-rest limitations and realize that the wizard got the short end of the "balance stick".

 

[prodigydancer]

Dunno, I found the Wizard quite good. Sure, as a damage-dealer he somewhat sucks

Actually Wizard was and still is the best DPS in the game. Single-target it cannot compete with Rogue, but most of the game is about clearing hordes of trash and Wizard got just the right tools.

But then you look at the Cipher's ability to do pretty much the same thing with NO per-rest limitations and realize that the wizard got the short end of the "balance stick".

You forgot to mention that, with the exception of Mental Binding, all Cipher abilities are either lackluster or require tricky positioning. Of course now it doesn't matter because you can't use them anyway.

Pre-1.05 Cipher was a pro tactical class. Playing it right was about getting enemies where you wanted them to be and then hitting them hard. But people were too dumb for that and just spammed MB. And now it's just a crappy, boring, mostly useless RDPS like Ranger.

 

[Irenaeus]

Of course now it doesn't matter because you can't use them anyway.

You can use them, you just can't spam them anymore.

 

[Athelas]

You forgot to mention that, with the exception of Mental Binding, all Cipher abilities are either lackluster or require tricky positioning. Of course now it doesn't matter because you can't use them anyway.

I didn't even take Mental Binding on Grieving Mother. I just slap on Ectopsychic Echo on a high-deflection character and send that character running through a group of enemies, the beam annihilating everything in its path. At higher levels I just spam Amplified Wave and keep enemies perpetually knocked down. Ciphers are an absurdly overpowered class.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

Two strong abilities make the entire class absurdly overpowered? Ironically, take away mental binding and amplified wave and echo and there's absolutely no reason anymore to even have a cipher.

 

[Gord]

Actually Wizard was and still is the best DPS in the game. Single-target it cannot compete with Rogue, but most of the game is about clearing hordes of trash and Wizard got just the right tools.

I found the Druid a better damage dealer (with his spells).

They ARE good. But then you look at the Cipher's ability to do pretty much the same thing with NO per-rest limitations and realize that the wizard got the short end of the "balance stick".

Hm, I do think it's a bit strange how the wizard is the only class with a memorization-like restriction through his grimoire, esp. in comparison to the priest and druid class.
I guess the idea was that the wizard offers higher flexibility through more spells, but when most of them are so weak in comparison to the really good ones, that's at most academic.
The Cypher is obviously intended to be limited (similar to the monk) by having to "charge up" their spells first, but that probably didn't work out as intended, either. I haven't used a Cypher, however, so I can't say much about that class.

 

[prodigydancer]

I just slap on Ectopsychic Echo on a high-deflection character and send that character running through a group of enemies

On PotD with engagement on? I'm not sure if it's possible even with a hand-crafted mid-level tank but Eder will 100% get his ass kicked in any serious fight. And at high level (8+) there are so many ways to cheese a fight that Cipher doesn't really stand out.

The Cypher is obviously intended to be limited (similar to the monk) by having to "charge up" their spells first

Monk is a p. boring class but at least there's some logic behind the Wounds system - the harder the fight, the more likely you are to get hurt. With Cipher it's, ironically, the other way round - fighting high level (i.e. high Def) enemies you're either focus starved or have to rely on consumables. In the meanwhile, Wizard casts Eldritch Aim and roflstomps everything.

 

[Irenaeus]

Firebug spell is the best spell I've seen in the game.

 

[Athelas]

I just slap on Ectopsychic Echo on a high-deflection character and send that character running through a group of enemies

On PotD with engagement on? I'm not sure if it's possible even with a hand-crafted mid-level tank but Eder will 100% get his ass kicked in any serious fight.

Well, I don't understand why people think Eder is a particularly good tank (that is, actually good, not good because of the lack of difficulty). Even Pallegina probably makes for a better one.

 

[Irenaeus]

I just slap on Ectopsychic Echo on a high-deflection character and send that character running through a group of enemies

On PotD with engagement on? I'm not sure if it's possible even with a hand-crafted mid-level tank but Eder will 100% get his ass kicked in any serious fight.

Well, I don't understand why people think Eder is a particularly good tank (that is, actually good, not good because of the lack of difficulty). Even Pallegina probably makes for a better one.

I tanked the whole Act 3 & 4 with Sawyergina and the two animals from my rangers.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

Well, I don't understand why people think Eder is a particularly good tank (that is, actually good, not good because of the lack of difficulty). Even Pallegina probably makes for a better one.

He has better stats. He is a fighter so he gets the most health. Due to fighter specific abilities he can achieve higher defense. He can get skills like Unbroken and Unbending. You get him before the auto-leveling spoils his build.

 

[Athelas]

Well, I don't understand why people think Eder is a particularly good tank (that is, actually good, not good because of the lack of difficulty). Even Pallegina probably makes for a better one.

He has better stats. He is a fighter so he gets the most health. Due to fighter specific abilities he can achieve higher defense. He can get skills like Unbroken and Unbending. You get him before the auto-leveling spoils his build.

Paladins have better defenses than fighters and they have equal health. Moreover, paladins are weaker offensively than fighters, which means making them a tank means sacrificing less offensive power. Pallegina has a racial ability that grants her increases defense against certain attacks (ranged attacks among them, I believe) and her PER and RES (stats that increase deflection) are almost the same as Eder's.

I'm guessing the bug that inflated Eder's defenses to absurd heights is what made people think he made for a great tank (well that, and the game's lack of overall difficulty).

 

[Irenaeus]

I think the game on Normal was difficult enough for a first playthrough. I'll probably have an easier time in my second playthrough tho

 

[Eyestabber]

Two strong abilities make the entire class absurdly overpowered? Ironically, take away mental binding and amplified wave and echo and there's absolutely no reason anymore to even have a cipher.

Ringleader says "hello".

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

Well, I don't understand why people think Eder is a particularly good tank (that is, actually good, not good because of the lack of difficulty). Even Pallegina probably makes for a better one.

He has better stats. He is a fighter so he gets the most health. Due to fighter specific abilities he can achieve higher defense. He can get skills like Unbroken and Unbending. You get him before the auto-leveling spoils his build.

Paladins have better defenses than fighters and they have equal health. Moreover, paladins are weaker offensively than fighters, which means making them a tank means sacrificing less offensive power. Pallegina has a racial ability that grants her increases defense against certain attacks (ranged attacks among them, I believe) and her PER and RES (stats that increase deflection) are almost the same as Eder's.

http://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Fighter
http://pillarsofeternity.gamepedia.com/Paladin

The fighter has the defender modal (not only deflection but also +2 enemies enganged) and wary defender (+10 to everything). Faith and Conviction is only +5 defense, another +2 when upgraded. The paladin can pick righteous soul to increase defense against certain effects (poison,charmed etc), she can pick that at level 9, i.e. at a time when the fighter is already invulnerable and has no need for additional defense against poison etc. Where's the constant recovery? Where's something that replicates Unbending? Unbroken? Exactly, it's not there. Otherwise show me which abilities to pick with a paladin, I've linked the sites above for reference, to end up with a higher deflection. I didn't even mention the need to spend a feat on Hold the Line and still end up with less enemies engaged. Can a paladin tank this game? Certainly. Can you be a better tank than a fighter? No way.

The bloated stats bug has long been patched and certainly played no role in my PotD playthru.

Two strong abilities make the entire class absurdly overpowered? Ironically, take away mental binding and amplified wave and echo and there's absolutely no reason anymore to even have a cipher.

Ringleader says "hello".

Why yes, I've picked that too. What else to pick anyway since most abilities are lacklustre at best. You know how often I actually used ring leader? Exactly zero times. Turns out it's far quicker to just kill the enemies. Although, I did use whisper of treason/puppet master a couple of times to charm back a dominated party member. Anyway, there's no reason to bring a class for an ability I will use 2 or 3 times in the entire game, or not at all.

 

[Athelas]

The fighter has the defender modal (not only deflection but also +2 enemies enganged) and wary defender (+10 to everything). Faith and Conviction is only +5 defense, another +2 when upgraded.

Faith and Conviction + Cautious Attack amounts to +15 deflection and +10 ref/for/wil, and they only have to take a talent for it, whereas a Fighter has to take an ability (Defender) and a talent (Wary Defender) to be on par. Faith and Conviction can also be boosted with Deep Faith and by the disposition bonuses, outclassing a fighter's defense.

The paladin can pick righteous soul to increase defense against certain effects (poison,charmed etc),

It's +15 defense against a bunch of status ailments and it can stack with all the other talents (Bull's Will, Snake's Reflexes, Bear's Fortitude, Mental Fortress, Body Control, Unstoppable, etc.). Paladins are the clear winners in large part because of this ability.

Where's the constant recovery? Where's something that replicates Unbending? Unbroken? Exactly, it's not there.

You need these stamina-recovering abilities presumably because you're getting hit. A high defense character is all about not getting hit (or at least only getting grazed occasionally).

show me

 

[Tigranes]

Offline MMO - sorry guys but this obsession with nerfing balancing classes in a fucking single player game is woefully retarded. Seems there were still some people having fun that needed to be ended.

Listen, and understand. Sawyer is out there. It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until everything has been Balanced™.

Ironically, POE isn't any more 'balanced' than any other RPG of this type.

I'd say it's LESS balanced than BG and NWN 2. Every single class on those games had AT LEAST ONE GIMMICKY build going on for them. PoE's Wizard is just...sad. Sure, he has a couple of good spells (which will soon get nerfed to the ground), but overall the druid just "out-wizard" the Wizard in every possible way. OH, and he also brings STRONG heals to the table AND decent buffs, thus "out-priesting" the priest. Paladin is another sad story: every order is useless, except Wayfarer which is OP as shit with the healspam from kills.

Rubbish. The wizard is excellent - even before 1.05, which makes melee wizards better. As I say, POE isn't particularly 'balanced' any more than other RPGs, but to claim that it has more 'useless classes' than, say, IE games, just means you haven't worked them out. Whether pre-1.05 or post-, the wizard has some excellent spells (FOF and Adragan remains super-powerful, and Essential Phantom is amazing). People thought Druid was the best back in the first few days, but that's before they realised how wizards can be just as powerful. Nobody tells people 'don't bother with a wizard' if they've tri

Paladin and Priest definitely get the short end of the stick, but both are also able to solo the game on POTD. IE Priests were rarely necessary in parties once you knew what you were doing, either, even when healing was more restricted - and of course there is the Bard. I would like to see both classes improved, but it's a pretty decent effort if monk, rogue, cipher, wizard, druid, barbarian, fighter, chanter all have 'holy shit this guy mows things down' strategies/builds out there.

 

[VentilatorOfDoom]

Faith and Conviction + Cautious Attack amounts to +15 deflection and +10 ref/for/wil, and they only have to take a talent for it, whereas a Fighter has to take an ability (Defender) and a talent (Wary Defender) to be on par. Faith and Conviction can also be boosted with Deep Faith and by the disposition bonuses, outclassing a fighter's defense.

Noted, so a paladin can achieve the same deflection or even higher (+2 plus disposition bonuses). Still, you'll have less enemies engaged, right? Which is kinda part of that tanking business?
To come back where it started: Pallegina has neither disposition bonuses, nor does the +2 of Deep Faith result in higher deflection than Eder's given her worse stats.

That picture is nice, did you defeat them solo with this paladin?

 

[Athelas]

Noted, so a paladin can achieve the same deflection or even higher (+2 plus disposition bonuses). Still, you'll have less enemies engaged, right? Which is kinda part of that tanking business?

The A.I. seems to make the enemies just cluster around the character at the front, regardless of their engagement slots.

To come back where it started: Pallegina has neither disposition bonuses, nor does the +2 of Deep Faith result in higher deflection than Eder's given her worse stats.

Her PER and RES are similar to Eder's and taking into account talents and abilities she will be a better tank.

That picture is nice, did you defeat them solo with this paladin?

Nope, just testing if you can make a character immune to mind control.

 

[Eyestabber]

Offline MMO - sorry guys but this obsession with nerfing balancing classes in a fucking single player game is woefully retarded. Seems there were still some people having fun that needed to be ended.

Listen, and understand. Sawyer is out there. It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until everything has been Balanced™.

Ironically, POE isn't any more 'balanced' than any other RPG of this type.

I'd say it's LESS balanced than BG and NWN 2. Every single class on those games had AT LEAST ONE GIMMICKY build going on for them. PoE's Wizard is just...sad. Sure, he has a couple of good spells (which will soon get nerfed to the ground), but overall the druid just "out-wizard" the Wizard in every possible way. OH, and he also brings STRONG heals to the table AND decent buffs, thus "out-priesting" the priest. Paladin is another sad story: every order is useless, except Wayfarer which is OP as shit with the healspam from kills.

Rubbish. The wizard is excellent - even before 1.05, which makes melee wizards better. As I say, POE isn't particularly 'balanced' any more than other RPGs, but to claim that it has more 'useless classes' than, say, IE games, just means you haven't worked them out. Whether pre-1.05 or post-, the wizard has some excellent spells (FOF and Adragan remains super-powerful, and Essential Phantom is amazing). People thought Druid was the best back in the first few days, but that's before they realised how wizards can be just as powerful. Nobody tells people 'don't bother with a wizard' if they've tri

Paladin and Priest definitely get the short end of the stick, but both are also able to solo the game on POTD. IE Priests were rarely necessary in parties once you knew what you were doing, either, even when healing was more restricted - and of course there is the Bard. I would like to see both classes improved, but it's a pretty decent effort if monk, rogue, cipher, wizard, druid, barbarian, fighter, chanter all have 'holy shit this guy mows things down' strategies/builds out there.

Have you TRIED playing the game without a Wizard? Try it. You will never miss the "excellent" class ever again. I think people are too emotionally invested on the Wizard class to realize how irrelevant it actually is. I agree with the Priest assessment, however. Scrolls of defense, valor and whatnot provide BETTER versions of pretty much every single one of their buffs, the Druid has better heals and the ONE THING that would justify the priest class, RESSURECTION, can be done via cheap scrolls that are MUCH better than their Priest counterpart. OH and the nail on the coffin: priests are squishy.

 

[Irenaeus]

I played the game with and without Wizard and had fun much the same.

 

[Tigranes]

Have you TRIED playing the game without a Wizard? Try it. You will never miss the "excellent" class ever again. I think people are too emotionally invested on the Wizard class to realize how irrelevant it actually is. I agree with the Priest assessment, however. Scrolls of defense, valor and whatnot provide BETTER versions of pretty much every single one of their buffs, the Druid has better heals and the ONE THING that would justify the priest class, RESSURECTION, can be done via cheap scrolls that are MUCH better than their Priest counterpart. OH and the nail on the coffin: priests are squishy.

I have TCS solo'd a wizard, played wizard in a party, played wizard not in a party. No single class is 'missed' if the party you have is a good one. However, take the wizard, or the ranger, who were both slated early on when people had a quick look and thought they sucked - I, and others, have made them killing machines. That's what matters. No single class should be indispensable, every class should be viable of becoming powerful. As I say, the only class that really sucks is the Priest (since Paladin at least has a 'kit' option that is excellent, and given all the useless kits in BG2..)