Obsidian got fucked by Bethesda

[Volourn]

"PS: Don't mistake what I'm saying as dissing my former employees and colleagues"

STFU Liar.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Any idiot - and I mean ANY idiot - would understand that when people praise the writing and the story, they praise the writing and the story in a video game.

So a game has to have a linear narrative to have a story? Plot outline is what makes a good story? Might want to rethink that one.

Way to miss the point.

 

[Forest Dweller]

So they cut a scene where Marburg blows up a bus full of tourists but leave the scene where Marburg blows up the museum full of tourists.

Well at least they cut out the crying.

Second, "Mitsoda writing was so bad they threw it out". I find it hard to believe, to be honest. We have a guy who's good at writing, who's been fast promoted to lead writer on TORN, was a lead writer on Bloodlines, and creative lead on AP until SEGA took over. I mentioned these positions to indicate what other people in the industry thought of him and his work. Bloodlines in particular was praised on the Codex, but now the guy is a shitty writer because some city designer says so? Seriously?

Didn't you say that Mitsoda told you personally that Sega said they wanted his design cut because it was too serious and they wanted something funnier? Early on they were making comparisons to Syrianna, and then that changed.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I made no such claims.

 

[Forest Dweller]

Well you seemed to imply it in one thread, don't have the link right now.

So you're saying that Mitsoda hasn't told you personally anything about that situation?

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

I think VD would keep personal discussions between himself and Mitsoda just that: Personal.

 

[DragoFireheart]

Remember that Aliens RPG had recently been cancelled. They probably needed the money pretty badly.

Alright, so Bethesda is acting like assholes. I would expect them to be greedy.

But, if I were a OE employee, guess who I would be pissed at? Feargus Urquhart for being such a dipshit.

 

[LeStryfe79]

http://kotaku.com/5894315/could-kickstarter-damage-studios-relationships-with-publishers

 

[Forest Dweller]

One can only hope. They've enjoyed their hegemony long enough.

 

[skuphundaku]

http://kotaku.com/5894315/could-kickstarter-damage-studios-relationships-with-publishers

I fucking hope so! It just goes to show the true faces of all major publishers and how they are nothing else than present day plantation owners. I hope they panic and start messing with the developers that crowd-fund their projects because the blow-back is going to be glorious. If something like that happens, it wouldn't be a big shock if no self-respecting developer would want to have anything to do with the publishers anymore.

 

[LeStryfe79]

All publishers need to die a horrible death. This is a fact.

 

[DragoFireheart]

All publishers need to die a horrible death. This is a fact.

I will cry from overwhelming happiness the day this happens. EA and Activison dying along with all other shitty Publishers? One can dream.

Oh, and I just donated $50.00 towards wasteland 2. Even if it isn't great, I still approve of the kickstarter site.

Edit: 65.00 total. 15 for shipping/handling.

 

[Roguey]

Second, "Mitsoda writing was so bad they threw it out". I find it hard to believe, to be honest. We have a guy who's good at writing, who's been fast promoted to lead writer on TORN, was a lead writer on Bloodlines, and creative lead on AP until SEGA took over. I mentioned these positions to indicate what other people in the industry thought of him and his work. Bloodlines in particular was praised on the Codex, but now the guy is a shitty writer because some city designer says so? Seriously?

He never called him a shitty writer; he listed examples of writing from his draft and they were all terrible. Furthermore, he's also mentioned that the wacky character designs were always that way; none of them were redesigned. So it sounds like Mitsoda was being kinda insubordinate and trying to turn the wacky spy thriller he was tasked to write into serious business, hoping that maybe they'd see his genius and come around.

Also there's there's this: http://www.elpixelilustre.com/2011/08/entrevista-con-chris-avellone.html/2

-Was it easy working with SEGA during AP’s development? Were they very involved, influencing the project, or did they just “foot the bill”? Did that experience had anything to do with the cancelation of the Aliens RPG?
They were involved more heavily toward the 2nd half, and towards the end of production, they were calling the shots and the final, indisputable word on the game’s direction and especially the mechanics (targeting, especially, jumps to mind). They didn’t care so much about the story, however, which is pretty standard with most publishers we’ve worked with. Note that none of this absolves us of any of the choices we as a studio made up to that point, so if anyone had an issue with the game, we shared equal, if not more, responsibility for all the critiques folks had.

Highlight mine. Why would he willingly concede they changed the game mechanics but lie about their not caring about the story?

Because Mitsoda talked about a sequel all the time? The nerve!

A sequel that hinged on the fact that none of the main characters in the previous game could be killed. Awesome RPG design there, just like his QTE dialogue thing.

In the archived thread Infinitron's reading he says the tourists were a compromise. The "few" tourists who might die in the explosion aren't the issue, the issue is Marburg creating a culture of fear versus saving Madison's life. Of course the epilogue ends up doing the exact opposite of what he was trying to achieve by having Madison become an activist and the prevented bomb explosion creating a new Patriot act.

You don't realize this is the whole point and they are making a statement?
...
Alternate nutshell: guy who can't spot dramatic irony is trying to make a point about whether someone is a good writer or not. Though AP was still terrible, the story was just mediocre and boring not biowarian herp derp. The terribleness came from being forced to play it.

Yes it sure is awesome when games have consequences that are the exact opposite of what you'd predict. That isn't contrived at all and they should do it all the time.

 

[Metro]

** Also he's the lead designer on Dungeon Siege 3 which, though I have not played it yet, I am confident saying that you should go pick up a copy.

M:

 

[stiltzkin]

What else is new? Obsidian's been screwed over since its inception, in fact they havent made a really great game since they were black isle. Its sad, but they're out of practice. I mean they had their chance with alpha protocol and quite frankly that game ijust isnt fun. Good writing though

 

[Vault Dweller]

He never called him a shitty writer; he listed examples of writing from his draft and they were all terrible.

If you say so.

Furthermore, he's also mentioned that the wacky character designs were always that way; none of them were redesigned. So it sounds like Mitsoda was being kinda insubordinate and trying to turn the wacky spy thriller he was tasked to write into serious business, hoping that maybe they'd see his genius and come around.

Again, I find it unlikely as that's not how companies work. I'm pretty sure he had to report and show his work and direction to the co-owners. They wouldn't just tell him "the job is yours; now go write something awesome" and then discover 6 months later than he'd gone rogue.

Highlight mine. Why would he willingly concede they changed the game mechanics but lie about their not caring about the story?

If I have to guess - as that's all I can do - when he says the story he means a sequence of events, not the characters and overall "kill bill" direction.

Here is what we know:

- Mitsoda is a good and experienced writer, well known at Obsidian and respected enough to get a creative lead position, which is his third.
- He's been at Obsidian for 3 years. Even if he only worked on AP for a year, it's safe to assume that for a year Obsidian's co-owners were at least satisfied if not happy with his work.
- At some point Sega gets involved and a lot of things get changed fast and Mitsoda leaves, not happy with his work being thrown out:

"I have nothing to do with Alpha Protocol as it is being developed currently. I was working on the creative direction, story, and dialogue for previous iterations of the game, but ... my dialogue and plot – again, for good or ill – are not being used for the game. Any characters I’m attributed with creating bear only a superficial resemblance to the ones in my original story."
...
You theory is that he's gone rogue and became a terrible writer in the process. It's not a very believable theory.

My theory is that Sega didn't like the direction, stepped in, and forced Obsidian to change it. Maybe it was a good idea, and maybe it wasn't, but it certainly looks like Avellone & Co (people who matter and have the experience to judge) had no issues with Mitsoda's work until Sega stepped in.

Because Mitsoda talked about a sequel all the time? The nerve!

A sequel that hinged on the fact that none of the main characters in the previous game could be killed. Awesome RPG design there...

There is nothing wrong with this design. Nothing at all. Unless, of course, you're prepared to argue that Bloodlines was a bad RPG.

 

[Roguey]

My theory is that Sega didn't like the direction, stepped in, and forced Obsidian to change it. Maybe it was a good idea, and maybe it wasn't, but it certainly looks like Avellone & Co (people who matter and have the experience to judge) had no issues with Mitsoda's work until Sega stepped in.

If Avellone really had no problem with serious dialogue and situations with the likes of

(Uli Booi, cut character)
or

then he must have damaged his brain somewhere.

A sequel that hinged on the fact that none of the main characters in the previous game could be killed. Awesome RPG design there...

There is nothing wrong with this design. Nothing at all. Unless, of course, you're prepared to argue that Bloodlines was a bad RPG.

I didn't like Bloodlines but I'm biased against story-driven RPGs and don't wish to debate their qualities, so I'll leave it at that.

 

[Vault Dweller]

If Avellone really had no problem with serious dialogue and situations with the likes of ... then he must have damaged his brain somewhere.

Beside the point. As for Brayko:

Avellone: The idea came from our CEO, Feargus Urquhart, and our tech director, Chris Jones. Both of them wanted to do an espionage shooter-style role-playing game, and the team took those parameters, and then carried the vision into the creation of the Alpha Protocol you're seeing trailers for now. We ended up adding some more visually compelling elements to the initial direction (Alpha Protocol takes place in the real world, but we've embellished the world and its inhabitants to give it more of a Kill Bill style as opposed to "super gritty and realistic").
...
Chris Avellone: (back when Mitsoda was still there) For the bosses and the significant characters, we have a Kill Bill theme to most of them, with distinctive visual tags and personality quirks… from SIE, a German cougar ex-special forces mercenary (not a literal cougar, but an attractive older woman) with lipstick marks spray-painted on her shin pads, to Konstantin Brayko, a Russian mobster who looks like he just walked out of a Duran Duran video… and that's just scratching the surface. Alpha Protocol has a creative cast, and the player should have a lot of fun interacting with the characters.

A sequel that hinged on the fact that none of the main characters in the previous game could be killed. Awesome RPG design there...

There is nothing wrong with this design. Nothing at all. Unless, of course, you're prepared to argue that Bloodlines was a bad RPG.

I didn't like Bloodlines but I'm biased against story-driven RPGs and don't wish to debate their qualities, so I'll leave it at that.

If you don't want to debate it, don't imply that it's bad design.

 

[villain of the story]

I'm desperately hoping another collective publishing initiative made up of developers to come out of all this ruckus. Anyone remember Gathering of Developers?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gathering_of_Developers

Too bad that one was such shortlived.

 

[Roguey]

My theory is that Sega didn't like the direction, stepped in, and forced Obsidian to change it. Maybe it was a good idea, and maybe it wasn't, but it certainly looks like Avellone & Co (people who matter and have the experience to judge) had no issues with Mitsoda's work until Sega stepped in.

Rather than continue to guess and speculate I decided to straight up ask.

I was wrong about the insubordination thing and I apologize for making that accusation. But there's no room for ambiguity there and I was right about Avellone taking it upon himself to abort Brian and Annie's downs baby of a script. Much respect to him for that and for taking the time to respond.

 

[Vault Dweller]

First, you asked him what's been known from day one. If you check some old pre-split interviews, you'll find the Kill Bill comments. Second, it proves that Mitsoda did what he was told - a game with exaggerated characters. Third, what Avellone said doesn't prove anything (it's possible that he had to step in and throw bad writing/design out, but that's not what he says there). We know that they changed things and we know that Avellone did it as the lead designer. What we don't know is why. My guess is Sega's involvement, since we do know that they did step in and Mitsoda left shortly after.

If you want to use Avellone as the ultimate arbiter, ask him directly why the storyline was changed and Mitsoda's work thrown out.

 

[Roguey]

My guess is Sega's involvement, since we do know that they did step in and Mitsoda left shortly after.

Jesus Christ you'll try to weasel out of anything. I've provided two quotes now where Avellone said Sega didn't touch the story and you keep arguing about semantics because you're in this massive denial.

If I have to guess - as that's all I can do - when he says the story he means a sequence of events, not the characters and overall "kill bill" direction.

^ a thing you said before you decided to move the goalposts.

Edit: He emailed me again and I asked the question you wanted. I guess we'll see if he responds.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I'm not trying to weasel out of anything and I'm not moving the goalposts. I'm not defending Brian and if he fucked up, well, he fucked up. I'm just curious to know what happened and your answers don't really satisfy me because they explain very little.

Yes, you did provide the quote where Avellone says Sega didn't care about the story, which, if taken at face value seems to imply that it was Obsidian that changed the story, but doesn't explain why. It just seems odd that they decided to redo the story (which is a luxury for a developer on a schedule) out of the blue (i.e. after being satisfied/happy with it for many months). Furthermore, Mitsoda left after Sega stepped in. Coincidence? Also, why did Sega stepped in and what exactly did Sega change?

Looking forward to Chris' response.

 

[Roguey]

I'm not trying to weasel out of anything and I'm not moving the goalposts. I'm not defending Brian and if he fucked up, well, he fucked up. I'm just curious to know what happened and your answers don't really satisfy me because they explain very little.

Yes, you did provide the quote where Avellone says Sega didn't care about the story, which, if taken at face value seems to imply that it was Obsidian that changed the story, but doesn't explain why. It just seems odd that they decided to redo the story (which is a luxury for a developer on a schedule) out of the blue (i.e. after being satisfied/happy with it for many months). Furthermore, Mitsoda left after Sega stepped in. Coincidence? Also, why did Sega stepped in and what exactly did Sega change?

Looking forward to Chris' response.

Ah, the catharsis of winning an internet argument.

 

[Infinitron]

Yes, Obsidian Entertainment and MCA have minimum standards they feel they need to meet in terms of reactivity.

Shocking, isn't it? In this day and age...