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Oblivion question for MSFD
- Thread starter Pr()ZaC
- Start date
dongle
Scholar
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- Jan 23, 2006
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- 838
I should know better than to reply to this blatant troll, but what the heck. . . .Excrément said:
OK, I said above that it didn't really make a difference to my argument whether or not I can ignore the dumb features. Yet you snip that out and point out I can just ignore the compass. Brilliant argument there pal. Bethesda can put a troop of dancing naked transvestite clowns in one city, and I can just not go there. Doesn't change the fact that I think it's a stupid idea.
Anyway, lets review:
* You state you don't believe the game is dumbed-down at all, and it'll be all loverly. Pretty much all you're saying.
* I gave three concrete examples of dumbing-down, ones that Bethesda has specifically described as being there for dumb players (if you don't remember them, please go back and read again)
* You bring up something irrelevant about bypassing mini-games. Maybe you're not even addressing me? If so, please quote the poster you -are- addressing.
If you think Oblivion is just your cup of tea, fine, I envy you for it. They designed to appeal to the mass-market. If something about it doesn't appeal to me don't tell me what strategy you're going to play it with, and that means I should unconditionally love everything about it.
Feel free to have the last word if you like, won't change my mind. . . .
dongle
Scholar
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- 838
Seboss said:
MSFD! Please come back to Codex and protect our humble threads from unlawful closures. <snigger>MSFD just posted here. A post from a dev is a seal of approval and makes the thread immune from closure
Anyhoo:
http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/inde ... pic=242630
Sheesh, Pete's got this guy all groveling and whatnot. Does it really matter -that- much if folks see 'em today or Saturday? Makes it sound like he broke UN protocol.
So, who's got this ugly Orc in thier browser cache? :D
Stella Brando
Arcane
- Joined
- Oct 5, 2005
- Messages
- 9,041
When you fail to accept Oblivion, you feel an emptiness in your life. You may feel sad, confused, or down. Although you may attempt to assauge this emptiness with sex, alcohol, or chocolate cookies, it will never truly leave you. You may forget it for a moment, but you will never conquer it.
That's why I want to bring a hopeful message to you all. That message is Oblivion. Allow yourself to enjoy it, to warm yourself in its radience. When you mock or reject Oblivion, you may think you're only hurting Bethesda - but you're mainly hurting yourself. I've learnt to accept Bethesda with open arms. And I've never been happier.
Why be a depressed and reclusive Fallout-loving social reject? The power to change is in your hands.
Thanks for listening,
Sincerely
Stalin Brando
That's why I want to bring a hopeful message to you all. That message is Oblivion. Allow yourself to enjoy it, to warm yourself in its radience. When you mock or reject Oblivion, you may think you're only hurting Bethesda - but you're mainly hurting yourself. I've learnt to accept Bethesda with open arms. And I've never been happier.
Why be a depressed and reclusive Fallout-loving social reject? The power to change is in your hands.
Thanks for listening,
Sincerely
Stalin Brando
Nog Robbin
Scholar
A partiuclar gaming site broke a TES embargo on showing new screenshots, hence they have been removed (I believe they're the ones anyway).
Anyway - going back to the mechanics of the game...
One of the main differences between an RPG and an action adventure is the ability to feel growth in a character. However, MOST RPG's tend to take it to extremes - where over a very short space of time you change from being a very ordinary nobody to being an absolute god.
Sycandre started a thread over on TESF some time ago about making changes to this - starting at a more realistic level for undertaking adventures, and seeing less improvement overall on your character stats across the course of the adventure. It would be a large undertaking - but one I feel would be worth while. It would essentially mean making it significantly harder to level skills, hence levels.
I have often debated the need of increased HP in a skill based system. Sure - a character may get a bit more hardy and used to dealing with wounds, but not to the extreme that HP allows for. HP is really a get out to cater for the fact you are supposed to be more skillful therefore can avoid more blows, or turn them into less damaging blows. Why is that necessary in a true skill based system? If your weapon skill determines how well you can fight, and (in OB terms) your block skill determines how well you can block/parry, and your armour skill determines how effectively you can move in your armour - why should your HP have to go up dramatically across the course of the game? It shouldn't have to - and it really shows a failing in the skill system if to keep the game balanced that it has to increase dramatically.
Likewise with stats - what is the difference between a strength of 40, and a strength of 100? If 40 your average office worker, and 100 the equivalent of those entering worlds strongest man competitions? If so, how do you gain such huge increases in strength over such a short space of time? Same applies to any stat.
Of course, as is so often pointed out at TESF by many fan boys, "too much reality ruins a game". Does it? Or does it just make it harder and make you have to think more? Or is it just that many gamers are used to the "rewards" of stat increases and extra HP as a guideline of how well they are performing in a game?
Anyway - going back to the mechanics of the game...
One of the main differences between an RPG and an action adventure is the ability to feel growth in a character. However, MOST RPG's tend to take it to extremes - where over a very short space of time you change from being a very ordinary nobody to being an absolute god.
Sycandre started a thread over on TESF some time ago about making changes to this - starting at a more realistic level for undertaking adventures, and seeing less improvement overall on your character stats across the course of the adventure. It would be a large undertaking - but one I feel would be worth while. It would essentially mean making it significantly harder to level skills, hence levels.
I have often debated the need of increased HP in a skill based system. Sure - a character may get a bit more hardy and used to dealing with wounds, but not to the extreme that HP allows for. HP is really a get out to cater for the fact you are supposed to be more skillful therefore can avoid more blows, or turn them into less damaging blows. Why is that necessary in a true skill based system? If your weapon skill determines how well you can fight, and (in OB terms) your block skill determines how well you can block/parry, and your armour skill determines how effectively you can move in your armour - why should your HP have to go up dramatically across the course of the game? It shouldn't have to - and it really shows a failing in the skill system if to keep the game balanced that it has to increase dramatically.
Likewise with stats - what is the difference between a strength of 40, and a strength of 100? If 40 your average office worker, and 100 the equivalent of those entering worlds strongest man competitions? If so, how do you gain such huge increases in strength over such a short space of time? Same applies to any stat.
Of course, as is so often pointed out at TESF by many fan boys, "too much reality ruins a game". Does it? Or does it just make it harder and make you have to think more? Or is it just that many gamers are used to the "rewards" of stat increases and extra HP as a guideline of how well they are performing in a game?
Abernathy
Scholar
Yeah, those links are broken for me too.
Abernathy
Scholar
Nog Robbin said:
I should have posted these thoughts earlier, as Stalin's original post got me thinking - but YES! You are who you are, with the build you have - short, fat, tall, skinny, whatever, and that's not going to change very quickly - unless you work on it. I'm a shortrased skinny little git who's never going to become a Conan no matter how often I go to the gym, face it!
The intellectual side of things is even more disinclined to change - can you really raise your basic intelligence? I don't think so. Read as many books as you like, but all you're increasing really is your knowledge, not your intelligence as such.
Wisdom is a different bucket of prawns. Older is generally wiser, so I guess this one might be able to increase over time.
Dexterity? Dunno. I'm a musician, my playing improves the more I practice - is this dexterity or just feel? I tend towards thinking that dexterity is another one that may improve over time.
I really like this concept of creating a persona with a 'carved in stone' set of physical and mental attributes that basically won't get any better throughout the game.
I especially like the thought of playing myself, a really weedy shortarse with quite an agile mind. I know damn well I'd never be a fighter even if I really believed in violence (which is another aspect that could be put to good use - philosophies), but I'm savvy enough to be able (theoretically) to invent and use some pretty nasty devices...
Hmm.. food for thought?
Nog Robbin
Scholar
I think having *some* gains would be ok. But they are reasonably slow.
For example - training. I have recently started training (I'm getting older so need to do something or I will just bloat!). I used to train (weights) as a late teen/early 20's and kept some of the shape, so I've gone back to that (a bit). I do a few short sessions a week (maybe 20-30 minutes, just a few different exercises). However, across about 5 weeks now I have already increased the amount of repetitions I can do in the first set from an initial 28 up to 36. My strength and stamina have improved even through these short sessions.
However, these gains would not continue for ever. I would plateaux (as I did when training a lot). It is possible to go beyond and get stronger, but the gains become slower, you have to work harder for them - or take some kind of supplements to increase your recovery rates or muscle growth.
Intelligence can be treated the same. Whether your actual intelligence changes could probably be debated - but you can *learn* techniques, puzzle solving, memory etc. And these are essentially the aspects that magic (I believe) would utilise.
Wisdom does indeed come with age - and experieince. This should also show slow gains.
Dexterity - your music playing is a good example. You dexterity would improve - for example, your fingers would have a greater reach and be quicker in getting into the appropriate places. This can be applied through martial arts or yoga also.
Personality - maybe a tough one. You can train yourself to be more cultured, maybe act more understanding, and you can dress better. Without surgery it's quite hard to alter physically the way you look - though appearance should only be a small part of personality/charisma anyway.
So - in short, you can get *some* gains. The gains may indeed start slow, then speed up, then slow down again. But the key (as with most) is scale. If the game lasts a mere month the amount of gains you should witness would be relatively small. Over a year you may get more noticable differences - but again, not on the scale that MW (and likely OB) would give you. I mean - in MW a "training" session was what, 2 hours? 3 hours? 4 hours maybe? And you gained a whole level of experience!
For example - training. I have recently started training (I'm getting older so need to do something or I will just bloat!). I used to train (weights) as a late teen/early 20's and kept some of the shape, so I've gone back to that (a bit). I do a few short sessions a week (maybe 20-30 minutes, just a few different exercises). However, across about 5 weeks now I have already increased the amount of repetitions I can do in the first set from an initial 28 up to 36. My strength and stamina have improved even through these short sessions.
However, these gains would not continue for ever. I would plateaux (as I did when training a lot). It is possible to go beyond and get stronger, but the gains become slower, you have to work harder for them - or take some kind of supplements to increase your recovery rates or muscle growth.
Intelligence can be treated the same. Whether your actual intelligence changes could probably be debated - but you can *learn* techniques, puzzle solving, memory etc. And these are essentially the aspects that magic (I believe) would utilise.
Wisdom does indeed come with age - and experieince. This should also show slow gains.
Dexterity - your music playing is a good example. You dexterity would improve - for example, your fingers would have a greater reach and be quicker in getting into the appropriate places. This can be applied through martial arts or yoga also.
Personality - maybe a tough one. You can train yourself to be more cultured, maybe act more understanding, and you can dress better. Without surgery it's quite hard to alter physically the way you look - though appearance should only be a small part of personality/charisma anyway.
So - in short, you can get *some* gains. The gains may indeed start slow, then speed up, then slow down again. But the key (as with most) is scale. If the game lasts a mere month the amount of gains you should witness would be relatively small. Over a year you may get more noticable differences - but again, not on the scale that MW (and likely OB) would give you. I mean - in MW a "training" session was what, 2 hours? 3 hours? 4 hours maybe? And you gained a whole level of experience!
dongle said:
constructive point.
dongle said:
I never said you have to ignore the feature. You have to manually activate the quest to get the highlights, can your brain understand this point??
There are "active" and "non-active" quest, either you "active" the quest and you get the highlights either you don't "active" the quest and you only get the north/west/east/south indications, that's it.....
Stella Brando
Arcane
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- Oct 5, 2005
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- 9,041
Where abouts in NZ are you from Abernathy?
dongle
Scholar
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- Jan 23, 2006
- Messages
- 838
So?Excrément said:
Does this mean they didn't design the game to be easy for idiots to play?
That was my point; three features specifically added for idiots, to refute your statement that no dumbing-down exists in Oblivion. If you have an argument to the contrary, present it.
Instead you ceaselessly repeat your little trick for ignoring some of the compass icons. So what? I can put some tape over my monitor and ignore it completely. Doesn't change the fact that they went to great lengths to add idiotic hand-holding features.
If you like the dumbed-down features, or don't mind them, or feel they don't affect the way you play, or can ignore them, fine. Good for you. However, don't present that as argument that no dumbing-down occurred.
dongle said:
they added this feature for people who will get lost and don't like to be lost (because of speed tree, it seems than even the developers get lost very easily, we will check when we will get the game). You can call it "idiot people" if you want but that doesn't make you more clever than this people. It is just a matter of taste and, that's why the TES games are often excellent for me (except Morrowind) : you play the game the way you want it.
If you want to powerplay and do the maximum quests in 30 hours, you can, if you want to role-play you also can. Do what you want.
And I don't think role player are more clever than "power player" even if I prefer role playing than power playing.
The only difference it is that power player get their fun from powerplaying and role player get their fun from role playing.
Have your fun with what your want. In the same way, some people prefer ferrari to aston martin.
Dumbing down the game would have been a compass you can't ignore and so because even roleplayer can't prevent from looking it, this game would have been dummbed down for role players.
I like the fact you can "activate" or "disactivate" your quests in your journal. Even if I role play and I like the feeling of being lost I am pretty sure one day when I will be totally lost and loose my patience I will use it. And I don't see what is the shame of using it sometimes even for a role player.
VenomByte
Scholar
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- Oct 17, 2005
- Messages
- 271
If you still have a map (like in Morrowind) which pinpoints your location, then it's pretty fucking difficult to get lost, compass or no compass.
I fail to see how the compass is anything other than a big radar with "GO HERE NEXT" icons flashing up on it. If that's not dumbing down, what is?
Dumbing down the game is the adding of features designed specifically to cater for the retards who can't find Caius unless he's flashing up on their radar.
Whether there is a 'bodge' to disable it is irrelevant.
I fail to see how the compass is anything other than a big radar with "GO HERE NEXT" icons flashing up on it. If that's not dumbing down, what is?
Dumbing down the game is the adding of features designed specifically to cater for the retards who can't find Caius unless he's flashing up on their radar.
Whether there is a 'bodge' to disable it is irrelevant.
VenomByte said:
maybe because of speedstree, it could be very hard to find your way.
I won't be surprised if you not find a small dungeon entrance when I see these screenshots :
http://www.elderscrolls.com/images/art/ ... liv18B.jpg
http://www.elderscrolls.com/images/art/ ... obx02B.jpg
in the same way, to find an amulet in this dark dungeon could be tricky :
http://www.elderscrolls.com/images/art/ ... liv23B.jpg
GhanBuriGhan
Erudite
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- Aug 8, 2005
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- 1,170
Drakron said:
Blablabla. It is not about "fixing mistakes" I know that even some modders claim that themselves, but it is just arrogance. They fail, like you, to see that what they perceive as a mistake, doesn't bother someone else, or is even preferred by them to their mod. It's about the possibility of tweaking a game to your liking and enriching it with new features. Plenty people enjoyed MW in its original form, others wanted certain features, or wanted certain features removed. Because as you may have noticed even within the bubble that is the RPGCodex, people have different preferences, wishes, ideas. So I can fix things I don't like, you can fix things you don't like. Galsiah fixes the levelling system because he thinks the original sucks. I don't like his mod.
As to the cheap attack on solik - he doesn't know anymore if its possible than you know it isn't. Actually the necessary skill points for the perk is most likely a game setting variable and thus accessible through the CS.
Data4
Arcane
Excrément said:
...while those of us with basic cognitive skills, and the ability to reason inquisitively would like to be able to think "Hmm... that looks like a good place for a cave. I think I'll check it out". Thanks to the compass, it's been reduced to "Hmm.. cave. Whatever."
-D4
Thrawn05
Scholar
Excrément said:
Anyone who can get lost in the woods deserves to be lost. It's not that hard to find your way out.
VenomByte
Scholar
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GhanBuriGhan said:
Now... this is an interesting thought. It's very likely Beth has in some way set this up as tweakable. Sadly it's likely to be a GMST rather than a global, but if it weren't you'd have all sorts of possibilities, such as:
- Completely re-ordering the order in which you gain perks
- Scripting a choice of perks at a given skill level based on Dynamic re-allocation of the skill 'level' required.
- Drinking a potion which temporarily gives you access to a perk you wouldn't otherwise have.
- Altering the system so that you dont' *always* get all the perks by the time you've maxed out your skill. Meaningful character development choice there perhaps?
There are so many more great effects we would be able to do if all the GameSetting variables were accessible/adjustable from scripts...
Data4 said:
I didn't know there are good or bad places for dungeons entrance.
so for you in order to find alone the dungeon entrance you need some special frightening music alerting you you are trespassing some dungeon areas or maybe once you will see some dead trees with fog you will think "Hey man, it is a good place for a dungeon. Woaw I am so smart, I didn't need a compass to find the entrance, I made this logical conclusion alone if there is a weird music and a weird atmosphere it is only because there is some dungeons over here.... I can't believe how clever I am, I am sure it is because I am a member of the RPG Codex Forum!!!!"
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