Preview Oblivion E3 impressions at GameSpot

[Saint_Proverbius]

It's also cool that NPCs' skills will be governed by the same mechanics as the player's own. Since they have their own schedules -- which often will include weapons practice -- they're going to get better and better at fighting as the game progresses. I can imagine a scenario where, early in my career, I'll bully some little punk squire, only to return to find him a fully-trained bad-ass with a sword. Let's hope the reality lives up to the scenarios I'm inventing in my head.

Seriously. Is this kind of stuff actually going to be in the game? It cant be right? I mean, it would be awesome.

Actually, it would be an insanely bad idea. It would mean that if you can't beat a bad guy at one point in the game, chances are, you'd be totally screwed because while you're out getting more powerful - so are they.

The game uses stats to determine proficiency and success for NPCs just as it does for the player, but NPCs don't improve over time unless scripted to do so.

I don't like this for the same reason as the above, but at least it's more organized than the case presented by GameSpy.

 

[Fresh]

NPCs don't do skill progression. The game uses stats to determine proficiency and success for NPCs just as it does for the player, but NPCs don't improve over time unless scripted to do so. In the demo, a woman NPC practices her archery and misses the target because her Marksman skill is set to zero. She then drinks a potion that fortifies her Marksman skill, and so she hits the target every time after that.

Ah bummer. (thx for the reply though)

Imo the world would really come alive with NPCs with skill progression. I guess we'll have to wait a while longer for a game with this feature. Or maybe it could be patched?

 

[Fresh]

Actually, it would be an insanely bad idea. It would mean that if you can't beat a bad guy at one point in the game, chances are, you'd be totally screwed because while you're out getting more powerful - so are they.

Not necessarily - the adventuring player-char could/would/should progress at a much swifter rate than the NPCs.

 

[MrSmileyFaceDude]

Actually it'd be very very easy to add it in -- but the thing is, it would be very unlikely that the player would notice it happening. If there are cases where we need specific NPCs to improve skills over time, we have a variety of methods at our disposal to do so, but for most NPCs and in most cases, I don't think it's something that really matters.

 

[Drakron]

I guess replacing the NPC with a another with the same dialogue tree but with higher stats.

 

[crpgnut]

@MSFD: How many hours are you working/week right now? You seem to be posting anywhere from 6:30 am to 10 or 11 at night!

As a ES fanboy, I was really knocked out by what you showed at the E3 show. Is there a chance that a video of the demo will be released for our viewing pleasure?

I can't wait til you show us the magic system and I'm dying to see how alchemy has changed. I loved playing an alchemist/mage character in MW and will probably start with that type in Oblivion too.

 

[mrgah]

@MSFD: How many hours are you working/week right now? You seem to be posting anywhere from 6:30 am to 10 or 11 at night!

As someone overly emotionally invested in the ES franchise, just wanted to say that it's great to know that people such as MSFD are helping determine OB's end result, and the involvement with the community is greatly appreciated.

And to belatedly chime in, large-scale architecture's one of the things Bethesda consistently does a good job at.

I have really high hopes for the architecture in OB because I think the Cyrodiilic-style cities in MW were some of the best. Which is not to say that the architecture/city in MW was flawless. Like US suburbs, MW's large cities didn't always feel organic, and a lot of this probably came from the fact that the streets were almost really wide. Balmora in particular felt like a missed opportunity. (Perhaps Bethesda's problems with sprawlish city design are related to their immediate surroundings outside DC)

In MW, Beth didn't really seem to have given thought to the economic reasons cities are set up the way they are. But to be fair, my sense is that this problem is fairly endemic in CRPGs and the greater fantasy multiverse (this is just my rough, very uneducated sense of things, and I'd be happy for any counterexamples).

That said, though I think towns in MW were generally really good... Pelagiad and Ebonheart spring to mind...

To bring things back to OB, I think the circular colonnade in the raw video (at about 0:54) looks really great, though the statue in the middle looks sort of wanky.

Sorry to be so long-winded. New to this sort of thing.

 

[crpgnut]

I was reading in this article:
http://www.waiting4oblivion.com/feature ... _demo.html

and noted that these guys mention alchemy specifically

"but goes on to pick up a mushroom called Fly Amanita Cap, resulting in an on-screen message indicating successful harvest."

If I remember there was a fan-made mod that would allow you to harvest ingredients with your success being based on your alchemy or herbalism skill. I'm glad that this has been implemented for O.

Of course, this quote:
"Todd then starts a conversation with Marus, showing off the dialog system. The keywords are located in a list to the bottom left. The keyword menu has a scrollbar, but in this demo, there is just one keyword - "Recent Attacks" which we just learnt about by listening in on the previous conversation"

may have some folks here foaming at the mouth.

 

[MrSmileyFaceDude]

Yeah but I already mentioned that the "topic list" can contain not only topics but responses. So an NPC might ask you a question and you might have several responses available to you.

 

[Volourn]

I like Mr. Smiley; but this game still looks "not so good" to put it politely. :D Too bad too as Mr. Smiley is pretty kewl.

 

[voodoo1man]

And to belatedly chime in, large-scale architecture's one of the things Bethesda consistently does a good job at.

I have really high hopes for the architecture in OB because I think the Cyrodiilic-style cities in MW were some of the best. Which is not to say that the architecture/city in MW was flawless. Like US suburbs, MW's large cities didn't always feel organic, and a lot of this probably came from the fact that the streets were almost really wide. Balmora in particular felt like a missed opportunity. (Perhaps Bethesda's problems with sprawlish city design are related to their immediate surroundings outside DC)

In MW, Beth didn't really seem to have given thought to the economic reasons cities are set up the way they are. But to be fair, my sense is that this problem is fairly endemic in CRPGs and the greater fantasy multiverse (this is just my rough, very uneducated sense of things, and I'd be happy for any counterexamples).

That said, though I think towns in MW were generally really good... Pelagiad and Ebonheart spring to mind...

Ok, those were good. The Tribunal expansion pack also wasn't so bad, except for the 10-mile wide temple courtyard. But Vivec was a complete disaster! They shouldn't have made Balmora a "river city" either - too much running from one end to the other, and the houses there seemed bigger outside than they were inside (and hey, this is a game and there is house loading, so why not make them bigger on the inside than they appear outside??). Oh, and let's not even start about the flood plain... :D

I though Gothic I and II had very well-though out villages, farms and fortifications. I've been to a few such historical sites and those games looked pretty authentic (and much more importantly pleasant in the game!) to me.

Sorry to be so long-winded. New to this sort of thing.

Welcome to the Codex, we've got fun and games!

 

[Fresh]

I like Mr. Smiley; but this game still looks "not so good" to put it politely. :D Too bad too as Mr. Smiley is pretty kewl.

He's so dreamy.

 

[crpgnut]

I like Mr. Smiley; but this game still looks "not so good" to put it politely. :D Too bad too as Mr. Smiley is pretty kewl.

That's okay, Volourn! For every Vault Dweller and Volourn there are 40 or 50 nuts like myself who will gladly purchase the game :D

Oblivion got so much love during the E3 that MSFD and Kathode can come here to deflate their egos a little

Sarcasm on:
I'd say Bethesda isn't too worried about the competition from Black Isle Studios, Troika, or Interplay. For some reason, none of those companies whose products you loved,had any games showing at the E3. Coincidence???
Sarcasm off:

 

[Volourn]

"That's okay, Volourn! For every Vault Dweller and Volourn there are 40 or 50 nuts like myself who will gladly purchase the game"

Good for you all.



"I'd say Bethesda isn't too worried about the competition from Black Isle Studios, Troika, or Interplay. For some reason, none of those companies whose products you loved,had any games showing at the E3. Coincidence???"

You obviously don't read the Codex much.While all three of those companies have good times; they aren't my fvaoite company. Not even close. That belongs to Bioware, and while BIO didn't have some fancy smancy game to show at E3 they just released a game that has done well, and have as many as 5 projects in the works so they aren't going anywhere.

Nice try; though. You failed, however.

 

[crpgnut]

I love Bioware also. I think they make great games. I couldn't pick on Bioware, now could I?

I loved BG1 and parts of BG2. I really disliked BG2 once every battle became a matter of learning which spells were going to be cast and then memorizing their counterspells before fighting. That got old fast. Everything else was great.

I've been around here forever. I don't post very frequently but I generally read the site. I become very active when games that I'm interested in are discussed/released. Oblivion is being discussed, so I read those posts. Same with Prelude to Darkness.

 

[Fresh]

Actually it'd be very very easy to add it in -- but the thing is, it would be very unlikely that the player would notice it happening. If there are cases where we need specific NPCs to improve skills over time, we have a variety of methods at our disposal to do so, but for most NPCs and in most cases, I don't think it's something that really matters.

I think the quote from Gamespy illustrated some of the potential with evolving rather than static NPCs. But okay now we know its not in the game. Too bad, but hopefully the modders will remedy the situation.

 

[MrSmileyFaceDude]

I don't think it needs to be remedied. Like I said, I don't think players would in general notice NPCs getting better at their skills over time -- and if the designers wanted that to happen, we have better ways of providing skill boosts for certain NPCs in specific instances than just having all NPCs gain skill increases through usage like the PC does.

 

[NeutralMilkHotel]

Actually it'd be very very easy to add it in -- but the thing is, it would be very unlikely that the player would notice it happening. If there are cases where we need specific NPCs to improve skills over time, we have a variety of methods at our disposal to do so, but for most NPCs and in most cases, I don't think it's something that really matters.

I think the quote from Gamespy illustrated some of the potential with evolving rather than static NPCs. But okay now we know its not in the game. Too bad, but hopefully the modders will remedy the situation.

I don't really see why you would want it there in the first place. It would be smashing the game balance with a hammer... (and for non-combat things, I'd echo smileyface with "you wouldn't even notice, so what's the point?")

 

[Fresh]

Actually it'd be very very easy to add it in -- but the thing is, it would be very unlikely that the player would notice it happening. If there are cases where we need specific NPCs to improve skills over time, we have a variety of methods at our disposal to do so, but for most NPCs and in most cases, I don't think it's something that really matters.

I think the quote from Gamespy illustrated some of the potential with evolving rather than static NPCs. But okay now we know its not in the game. Too bad, but hopefully the modders will remedy the situation.

I don't really see why you would want it there in the first place. It would be smashing the game balance with a hammer...

It might be that Im mistaken about this, but NPCs evolving skillwise seems like a way to bring the world more alive, make it more dynamic.

Of course there are other ways to achieve this (ie NPCs changing appearance, knowledge, behavior, possesions, etc), and perhaps these are better suited?

EDIT: The point is: obviously static NPCs kills immersion.

 

[NeutralMilkHotel]

Actually it'd be very very easy to add it in -- but the thing is, it would be very unlikely that the player would notice it happening. If there are cases where we need specific NPCs to improve skills over time, we have a variety of methods at our disposal to do so, but for most NPCs and in most cases, I don't think it's something that really matters.

I think the quote from Gamespy illustrated some of the potential with evolving rather than static NPCs. But okay now we know its not in the game. Too bad, but hopefully the modders will remedy the situation.

I don't really see why you would want it there in the first place. It would be smashing the game balance with a hammer...

It might be that Im mistaken about this, but NPCs evolving skillwise seems like a way to bring the world more alive, make it more dynamic.

Of course there are other ways to achieve this (ie NPCs changing appearance, knowledge, behavior, possesions, etc), and perhaps these are better suited?

EDIT: The point is: obviously static NPCs kills immersion.

Honestly, I don't see how static NPC skills would kill immersion, but ok. I might be looking at this wrong, I dunno.

edit: For combat skills, it would make things unbalanced since there's already a system (unless they put a cap on how much they can learn with comparison to your level, but that would be almost just like the system they already have for it). For non-combat skills, you wouldn't be able to see or even acknowledge them, so immersion isn't even a factor. If the developers never told you about it, or if they even lied about it and said it was in there, you wouldn't even notice.
Just seems like it would kill balance and be more trouble than it's worth.

 

[Fresh]

EDIT: The point is: obviously static NPCs kills immersion.

Honestly, I don't see how static NPC skills would kill immersion, but ok. I might be looking at this wrong, I dunno.

Ah - obviously static NPCs, not obviously static NPC skills.

EDIT: You guys might be right, I spontaneously assumed dynamic = always good. The other ways (looks, etc) of bringing em NPCs to life might be better suited. (Soldiers getting new scars, civilians donning new fashionable clothes, rich merchants showing off their brand new Volvo, etc. ) Something to suggest things are happening to people around you when you are not around.

 

[NeutralMilkHotel]

I agree that stuff would be neat, but I think Oblivion is taking things to a new level in terms of non-static NPCs. Kind of like how Ultima VII (or perhaps even earlier?) and Gothic started it, Oblivion is improving on it in a big way, then maybe some years down the road other devs (or bethesda) can evolve it into even more advanced and better things.

I think what Oblivion (bethesda) has done (if it's implimented and not just hype) should be commended, at least when compared to what older CRPGs have done in this area.

 

[Claw]

ES: Arena started you in a dungeon, and that was way back in 92. If anything, you could say that other developers are ripping Bethesda's ideas.

Unless Bethesda stole the idea from Ultima Underworld. :wink:


Anyway, guess I forgot to actually read the article until I came across it on another website. The information regarding the AI were - interesting. So the bookkeeper first uses a magic potion to increase its aim during practice, then first paralyses and finally scorches its pet dog. Yeah, that's sort of the stuff I expected from "intelligent" NPCs.
It certainly has much potential for comedy relief, but I hope the NPCs won't be charicatures of people in the final version.
That's always been my concern with AI - although I agree with NeutralMilkHotel, it's great that they are trying to advance the genre, and it could be very cool.

 

[NeutralMilkHotel]

ES: Arena started you in a dungeon, and that was way back in 92. If anything, you could say that other developers are ripping Bethesda's ideas.

Unless Bethesda stole the idea from Ultima Underworld. :wink:


Anyway, guess I forgot to actually read the article until I came across it on another website. The information regarding the AI were - interesting. So the bookkeeper first uses a magic potion to increase its aim during practice, then first paralyses and finally scorches its pet dog. Yeah, that's sort of the stuff I expected from "intelligent" NPCs.
It certainly has much potential for comedy relief, but I hope the NPCs won't be charicatures of people in the final version.
That's always been my concern with AI - although I agree with NeutralMilkHotel, it's great that they are trying to advance the genre, and it could be very cool.

I think that was just to get a rouse out of people and make them laugh with extremes, not a firm example of the normal NPC. Though I do think it would be interesting if the AI did have personalities for non-rational people as well as rational people. I'm not positive, but I think MSFD or some Dev said that a drunk person at a bar may not like you (or an NPC), and could try to fight you. Situations like that could be interesting, and fun IMO.

 

[Sol Invictus]

I wonder if there are pets in Oblivion. I hope I can get a pet wolf or something. I know it sounds like a really silly suggestion, like "I want crossbows!" but I think having a pet and having him level his skills up, and learn new abilities (e.g. new forms of attack) would be pretty sweet for the whole immersion factor.