NWN2: What is it like now?

[RK47]

the issue i found that impedes my enjoyment is probably the MOTB epic combat affair of huge HP and 'must buff' metagame. It's really hard to tell what the hell going on in the middle of spell spam. You pause and look around, issue command. Oops they just got walloped by AOO. Lemme try heal. Oh fuck I was casting sunbeam, I gotta wait next round. Too late. Wham. Lemme reload and fully buff before entering that room again. Repeat Ad nauseum.

 

[Soulforged]

Just why the fuck are you not going to play MotB without finishing the game? They're completely unrelated.

Not completly, you can play the expansion if you haven't played the OC but there are some things you're not going to understand...

On that vein let me tell you what I think about "Mask of the Betrayer" without spoiling too much. The truth is that you won't make much sense of the plot wheter you played the OC or not, the plot plays with logic and metaphysics too much for my taste. The character that wasn't supposed to be special on the OC is two times special in the expansion, you're the one who carried the shard into your chest and the only salvation of the world, and now you're something more. Instead of selecting a new character in a new world completly unrelated with your OC character they decided to explain what happened with him after the end of the OC to "tie some loose ends" but adding more loose ends that sadly are related to the plot itself.

The story becomes too complex, it becomes overloaded with fat, and suddenly you are wondering what's the point of all the explanation and plot intrincacy just to find out that it becomes more intricate...

As for the gameplay, the influence system is still there and is still as open as a "happy meal". The necessity for combat in every turn is still there and stronger than ever, seriously, when you think that there's a possible pacific solution to a problem and the dialog just leads you deeper into that road, you only find dissappointment at the end. The worst part of this is that the epic system adopted by Obsidian (and for what I know Wizards of the Coast too) only blows this flaws out of proportion by showing the cracks on the balance. The stream of ridiculously powerful items is still there as steady as ever.

Technically speaking the game is solid, there's some hard to reproduce bugs here and there so my bet is that you'll never find them. When it fails to deliver is always in the ruleset department, nothing new since generally the OC didn't get it right either.

The only element I can savage from this, in my opinion, mediocre game, is character development, both yours and that of your partners. Do not mind the influence system, the characters are sufficiently deep in their own right and they fall on the category of anti-cliché, i.e. characters made so bizarre and otherworldly on purpose so you cannot accuse them of being cliché, an old trick used since Planescape Torment. In my opinion they really didn't need to add such strange characters and stretch the vision of reality in the Forgotten Realms to make them deep, but it works and that's what matters.

My conclusion is that if you're going to play this game from the bottom up to the top is because of your companions, there are clearly some well designed quests and the settings are wonderful, but the thing that is going to keep you tied to this game is its characters, you'll want to know their past and their future. Otherwise this game tries to take its overblown plot too seriously and personally it made me roll my eyes more than once.

 

[Lesifoere]

On that vein let me tell you what I think about "Mask of the Betrayer" without spoiling too much. The truth is that you won't make much sense of the plot wheter you played the OC or not, the plot plays with logic and metaphysics too much for my taste.

Lol? I thought the plot's fairly simple to make sense of. What?

The story becomes too complex, it becomes overloaded with fat, and suddenly you are wondering what's the point of all the explanation and plot intrincacy just to find out that it becomes more intricate...

???

How is it too complex? No, really. What? "You have curse, you seek explanations for curse, you try to remove/end curse." How much simpler can it get? Yeah, there's backstory, but it's fairly straightforward.

 

[mjorkerina]

...

Did you undergo a lobotomy ?

 

[DiverNB]

I have to strongly disagree on your point about the plot. Really, it's not that hard to understand. There are confusing elements at the beginning, but then again that's why you're playing. Your motivation is the same as your characters motivation, to find out what the hell happened to you.

Also, you are not "Special" as you put it. I think you're mixing up the epic plot of "zomg only i can save every1" with this extremely personal quest. It wasn't your choice to become the next mask, and no one is expecting you to do what you do in the game.

Also, about the epic combat, what difficulty are you playing on? I found the game very easy at the normal difficulty, and the only buffs I had ever cast normally throughout the game was stoneskin and haste which takes all of 3 seconds and last for quite a while. I can count the number of times I had to reload because of hard battles I can count on one hand.

 

[Soulforged]

...

Did you undergo a lobotomy ?

I never said I didn't understand the plot, what I said is that it was complex, in the sense that it added too much complexity without making sense, it was contrived.

Also, you are not "Special" as you put it. I think you're mixing up the epic plot of "zomg only i can save every1" with this extremely personal quest. It wasn't your choice to become the next mask, and no one is expecting you to do what you do in the game.

This is what happens when people do not read. What you wrote doesn't mean you're not special in any sense, you were special in the OC and you're still special in the expansion, you're involved in a metaphysical struggle of souls and personalities and trying to "find yourself" (TM), if that doesn't make you special I don't know what does.

Also, about the epic combat, what difficulty are you playing on? I found the game very easy at the normal difficulty, and the only buffs I had ever cast normally throughout the game was stoneskin and haste which takes all of 3 seconds and last for quite a while. I can count the number of times I had to reload because of hard battles I can count on one hand.

Well I never said anything about the game being too easy or too hard I talked about balance issues, and the fact that you found it "very easy" just proves my point.

Yeah, same--went through on easy, breezed through every fight with epic spell spam. The combat played like that is boring as hell, but difficult? Maybe if you insist on having all your companions walk around naked and you've deleted all their spell memorization, then set their AI to "retarded."

Did you read my post? Did I ever say something about combat difficulty?

 

[Hümmelgümpf]

...

Did you undergo a lobotomy ?

I never said I didn't understand the plot, what I said is that it was complex, in the sense that it added too much complexity without making sense, it was contrived.

Complex != Complicated

 

[Soulforged]

Complex != Complicated

Sure. But I'm trying to say it was complex, not complicated. The complexity felt forced.

Lel?

You'll have to remind me of the internet acronyms, english is not my native language and I don't discuss that much. Sorry.

 

[OSK]

What you wrote doesn't mean you're not special in any sense, you were special in the OC and you're still special in the expansion, you're involved in a metaphysical struggle of souls and personalities and trying to "find yourself" (TM), if that doesn't make you special I don't know what does.

You can ignore the "specialness" of your character from the OC. You no longer carry a piece of the shard in you, and you no longer wield the sword. You're normal. In MotB, your character is about as special as someone who has contracted AIDS.

 

[Soulforged]

You can ignore the "specialness" of your character from the OC. You no longer carry a piece of the shard in you, and you no longer wield the sword. You're normal. In MotB, your character is about as special as someone who has contracted AIDS.

I could ignore it, but wouldn't that be the equivalent of ignoring that Jason Bourne didn't kill people for assignment before he lost his memory? The character is one and the same, the continuity is not lost. I think it would have been better if they took a new character, that's just my opinion...

 

[DiverNB]

Well I never said anything about the game being too easy or too hard I talked about balance issues, and the fact that you found it "very easy" just proves my point.

Heh, this wasn't pointed towards you, but OK.


This is what happens when people do not read. What you wrote doesn't mean you're not special in any sense, you were special in the OC and you're still special in the expansion, you're involved in a metaphysical struggle of souls and personalities and trying to "find yourself" (TM), if that doesn't make you special I don't know what does.

This is what happens when people can't comprehend different stories. I didn't say you aren't "Special" I said it was a different kind. Aside from getting the curse, nothing felt like it was forced onto the character, it felt reasonable and believable that the character would want to find out about this hunger in him. Compare this to the "Take shard to far distant city x and save world from x person" and I'm sure you can see why they are different.

Of course it's still special, but please, name me an RPG where you aren't somehow special

"Vault dweller, only you can get the water chip!"
"TNO, you learned how to split yourself from your mortality!"

Etc.

 

[Soulforged]

Heh, this wasn't pointed towards you, but OK.

Sorry, but it wasn't clear without the quotation.

This is what happens when people can't comprehend different stories. I didn't say you aren't "Special" I said it was a different kind. Aside from getting the curse, nothing felt like it was forced onto the character, it felt reasonable and believable that the character would want to find out about this hunger in him. Compare this to the "Take shard to far distant city x and save world from x person" and I'm sure you can see why they are different.

Special is a very general term, I get it, and if you're not suggesting that the character isn't special in any sense, then what's the point of your previous post? About the differences, yes they're notable, the expansion is relatively better than the OC, that doesn't make it good.
Aside from getting the curse, nothing felt like it was forced onto the character, it felt reasonable and believable that the character would want to find out about this hunger in him. But that's the problem, in a logical context is easy to see why I think the plot is contrived, why does he get the curse in the first place, why the same character, why warp him into the caves of Rashemen... It all seems forced, it feels as if the devs first thought: well lets make something like Planescape, break boundaries, present bizarre characters and locations and then we'll invent a frame to explain why... I could be wrong.

Of course it's still special, but please, name me an RPG where you aren't somehow special

"Vault dweller, only you can get the water chip!"
"TNO, you learned how to split yourself from your mortality!"

Etc.

True, but I'm talking about what Obsidian promised regarding the OC. When you start the campaing it appears you're just another inhabitant of West Harbor but in no time you become very special for the shard you carry within you. It's more, you're so special that even the Githyanki persue you!! The plot escalates easily after that.

About one of those examples: how about Vampire: The Masquerade?

 

[Lesifoere]

You'd rather they give you another nobody-villager/farmboy? I'll take "special" over "fucking generic" any time.

As for VTM:Bloodlines? Actually, the character you play appears to be of a higher generation than normal: in the setting, vampires embraced in that era are usually of the thirteenth generation, and have ten blood points maximum. However, your PC has fifteen, so he/she is eighth generation (making your sire seventh), which is unusually powerful. So, yeah, you're fairly special, or at least more special than most.

 

[afewhours]

But that's the problem, in a logical context is easy to see why I think the plot is contrived, why does he get the curse in the first place, why the same character, why warp him into the caves of Rashemen... It all seems forced, it feels as if the devs first thought: well lets make something like Planescape, break boundaries, present bizarre characters and locations and then we'll invent a frame to explain why... I could be wrong.

That's an easy one to explain. The devs needed an excuse to let the player import their NWN2 OC character. That is all.

so he/she is eighth generation (making your sire seventh), which is unusually powerful. So, yeah, you're fairly special, or at least more special than most.

Ja, IIRC it still fits within the canon though. I haven't got my rule books to hand, but you can decrease your generation to eight right from the start, yes? It ruins the rest of your stats, but it's possible...

 

[Soulforged]

You'd rather they give you another nobody-villager/farmboy? I'll take "special" over "fucking generic" any time.

There are a bunch of stories out there (not in any RPG I know of) that are interesting without making use of a character with an interesting background or present. I don't particulary ask for that, I only seek originality.

As for VTM:Bloodlines? Actually, the character you play appears to be of a higher generation than normal: in the setting, vampires embraced in that era are usually of the thirteenth generation, and have ten blood points maximum. However, your PC has fifteen, so he/she is eighth generation (making your sire seventh), which is unusually powerful. So, yeah, you're fairly special, or at least more special than most.

That's stretching it a bit don't you think? Talking about being contrived, it doesn't matter if your character gameplay wise belongs to another generation according to the rules, I'm talking about the plot, you're presented and you're in fact just another vampire more, there are lots of vampires more important than you in the world you explore and you do not have any particular motivation to start doing what they tell you beyond your own survival.

That's an easy one to explain. The devs needed an excuse to let the player import their NWN2 OC character. That is all.

So it's easy... And you don't find any problem with that? I believe that the plot is first and then one can begin to wonder about how one is going to solve trivial issues as the one you pointed.

 

[mjorkerina]

You'd rather they give you another nobody-villager/farmboy? I'll take "special" over "fucking generic" any time.

This bugged the hell of me when everyone everywhere could know you play a harborman no matter the clothes you wear, the class you have and the social skills. "Sniff Sniff it has a harborman smell omfgwtf"

 

[Nightjed]

the camera still sucks, its better, yes, but it still sucks, i dont think there is any way to fix it without changing the whole engine and graphic design, while motb wider levels make the camera thing a lot better, the goddamn spell effects make it a lot worse, most of the time you cant see crap, and worst of all 70% of the enemies are semi-trasparent so finding the pixel to target is almost impossible, also a lot of large enemies can only be targeted in a very small area.

i liked motb's story a LOT, but the engine is a pos, the combat blows (it just doesnt work party based, i had a lot more fun with the solo modules i've played in this area), you get 0 visibility most of the time, and while i liked the companions, the fact that most of them are casters make the spell effects thing a really big deal

 

[afewhours]

So it's easy... And you don't find any problem with that? I believe that the plot is first and then one can begin to wonder about how one is going to solve trivial issues as the one you pointed.

I don't think it was that graceful a solution, but it was quick and painless compared to what it could have been. Let's have a look at the problems we have here.

First off the bat, MotB's an epic level game. Your character starts off at level 18. Now, a level 18 character should require a substantial amount of backstory to fly... and when you consider how many character creation options you have, that backstory can get very specific. Writing a 'one-size-fits-all' premise for a freshly rolled Lv. 18 character can get very hard.

Taking the NWN2 OC PC's the obvious solution. The PC has adequate reason to be epic level, the backstory's already there, and all the people who played the OC won't feel burnt because they can't import their uber character. Also, marketing MotB as a follow-up to the OC gets you a bigger captive audience. Anyone who's invested that much time into the OC will just have to find out what happens.

Besides, if you pull a Lv. 18 character out of nowhere, a lot of the people who bought the OC may feel cheated. They're probably attached to their PC. They'd expect something for killing the King of Shadows and all that bollocks.

Unfortunately, the ending of the OC was extremely unhelpful. Everyone dies in a ruin collapse? Oh dear. If that hadn't happened, you could have just wrote something like: "You were asleep in Crossroads Keep. When GHLUAGHLUAGLUGAHLUAGHAGG." Unfortunately, that's not possible without pulling a load of clumsy, anti-climactic and vaguely insulting exposition out of nowhere. Eg. "Oh yeah, by the way? That big dramatic ending to the OC? It didn't really happen! hahahahahaha! pwned."

So what did the writers do? They played the MYSTARY card. "You think you're dead? But no! You've woken up in a strange cavern! What's going on? Play on to find out!"

I think it was clever move, myself. Because of the OC's ending, you're gonna have to break the narrative at some point to make it fit, but the last place you wanna do it is at the start, because that's just cheap. Play the MYSTARY card, draw the people in that way, let them get into MotB's storyline, so it takes the place of the OC in their brain... then they won't feel so burnt when you wheel out Ammon Jerro and The Founder near the climax to tie up the loose ends. Like, did I think the resolution was clumsy? Maybe, but at that time I was too concerned with Akachi the Betrayer to care about the OC.

Of course, all this could have been avoided had the MotB team not been so dogged in wanting to implement their little tale of Rashamen. They could have come up with something a little cleaner, but... hey, sometimes inspiration's just gotta ride. I'm glad they went through with it despite some of the narrative difficulties it threw up.

Well... long story short. Resolving the NWN2 OC and MotB was never going to be perfect. However, I'm not sure I could do a better job than the one Obsidian already implemented.

EDIT: Fixed some stupid wording.

 

[Lesifoere]

There are a bunch of stories out there (not in any RPG I know of) that are interesting without making use of a character with an interesting background or present. I don't particulary ask for that, I only seek originality.

Funny, I'd say that everyman-type characters in RPGs are a lot less original than ones with established backgrounds. And how many RPGs deal with themes like the philosophy and issues of faith?

I'm talking about the plot, you're presented and you're in fact just another vampire more, there are lots of vampires more important than you in the world you explore and you do not have any particular motivation to start doing what they tell you beyond your own survival.

...and? The PC in MotB's primary motivation is to survive. You know, the spirit-eater curse having a tendency to destroy the host? Yeah, that.

So it's easy... And you don't find any problem with that? I believe that the plot is first and then one can begin to wonder about how one is going to solve trivial issues as the one you pointed.

Jesus buggering Christ, and I thought I was good at quibbling over petty shit that matters absolute fuck-all and which nobody cares about. This is asinine. I give up.

 

[POOPERSCOOPER]

I liek MLmarkland, seems like a cool chap. Anyways, NWN2/MOTB are next in my que of games to play considering I don't get anything new or get side tracked which is a high possibility.

 

[Soulforged]

Of course, all this could have been avoided had the MotB team not been so dogged in wanting to implement their little tale of Rashamen.

Exactly. Or make it in Rashemen but avoid the whole soul switching nonsense...

Funny, I'd say that everyman-type characters in RPGs are a lot less original than ones with established backgrounds. And how many RPGs deal with themes like the philosophy and issues of faith?

I would say the contrary, but that's beyond the point. Many RPGs deal with those subjects, many do it accidentally, many as the main subject, but that's not what happens in MotB, at least not only that.

...and? The PC in MotB's primary motivation is to survive. You know, the spirit-eater curse having a tendency to destroy the host? Yeah, that.

Did you read the rest of my post? Or are you just nitpicking what I say and posting the parts that favour you, how about this part before we lose track of what the point of my example was: "you're presented and you're in fact just another vampire more".

Jesus buggering Christ, and I thought I was good at quibbling over petty shit that matters absolute fuck-all and which nobody cares about. This is asinine. I give up.

That's right, most people do not care about this, I wouldn't either if the story wasn't so contrived, the problem with what they did is that they couldn't come up with a more sensical solution to the setting, then the plot paid the bills.

Also... you give up? You've a short patience mate... Well suit yourself.

 

[Gragt]

Yes, the plot of MotB plot is made so that the character from the OC is reused but is it that contrived? If anything at the end of the game I found it very ironic that his (or her, actually) nature as the Kalach-cha, which allowed him to be the instrument in the defeat of the King of Shadows, is the very reason why he was chosen to be next the mask of the betrayer. The "gift" that made him the last only hope of the world is the reason he was chosen to endure a curse threatening his very soul.

I actually surprised myself when I accepted the explaination for the link between the two stories as believable while all this time I was wondering what half-baked excuse they will serve me to justify the link. Certainly the story of MotB could have been improved, nothing is perfect, but I loved it as it is and am not afraid to say so and can only hope that Obsidian will serve me more of the same quality. Call it contrived if you want but it talked to me and that doesn't happen often.

The influence system is at least a bit better too, if anything this time I could actually disagree with my followers as long as I made a good point and not loose influence, sometimes gaining some while doing so. It's a bit better than being forced to agree with the character you want to please in the OC to get influence with.

As for the combat, I would have prefered a system à la Infinity Engine and a bit more balance but I found it fun. Compared to the OC I found that this time around I spent most of my time talking to people, trying to understand the workings of the world I was in as well as those of the curse devouring me than killing orcs in a generic cave, there was just enough combat in it for me to enjoy it, more and boredom would have probably knocked on my door.

 

[afewhours]

Hey, Soulforged, if you think MotB's bad, you should check this out. Your brain will love you forever.

 

[Soulforged]

Hey, Soulforged, if you think MotB's bad, you should check this out. Your brain will love you forever.

Do you happen to possess a shorter version?

 

[afewhours]

EDIT: FF7 Plot Analysis flood removed. Sorry about that folks: carry on.