Non-lethal combat

[SkepticsClaw]

I don't think Mirages are in Dwarf Fortress, I made that one up to see what you understand scripting to be. The real Dwarf Fortress events are much more interesting, bizarre and comical. It's a good example of how enough system interactivity creates its own narrative. Read some of the AARs for DF, they can be pretty hilarious. http://lparchive.org/Dwarf-Fortress-Boatmurdered/ for example.

(the way they designed that game was, one guy writes a story; the programmer breaks it down and implements it into the subsystems in the game world so that story has a chance of occurring).

Of course, events generated like this are not really traditional stories. The story becomes the narrative that is implicit in certain chains of actions that occur in the game world. The more dynamic the reaction, the more rich that narrative is.

However, I concede you're never going to get interesting dialogue and high drama in the film/book sense out of such a thing. If that's all you're after then nobody is going to convince you, but I personally find a lot of fun in the freedom a simulationist/sandbox approach gives, and would like to see it extended in novel ways in new RPGs.

 

[Azrael the cat]

Wow, I've Gothic never really thought Gothic of Gothic that before. Gothic. It sounds really Gothic good - I hope Gothic some game really opens Gothic that option Gothic soon!

Sorry, shouldn't be a dick about it.

The Gothic games are what you're after though, as a model. It's used extensively in G2 - almost all human enemies will knock you out instead of killing you, whereas animals will kill you (it's also good with animal temperament, in that they won't just blindly attack you on sight - they'll give warning cries/barks/howls first and then attack if you press it).

Similarly, when fighting a human enemy, you knock them out first, and then can kill them if you like when they're on the ground. The neat aspect is that other npcs have very different reactions to killing v knocking someone out. In the seedier parts of town, no-one cares if you k.o. someone, but a murder is a different story. Similarly, town authorities will take murder a lot more seriously than just beating someone up.

Bandits will knock you out and rob you (as will someone if you start a fight with them - you're a mugger, so they'll take your shit for starting a fight with them, but they aren't so psycho as to fucking kill you for it!), - the important aspect is that folks react differently and so it provides a different option. If you let someone live, they'll go and report you to the town guards, while killing them means you won't have to deal with them in the future - but if they're a merchant you might not want that, and there'll be consequences with other npcs.

From what I remember, a similar system was implemented in Risen.

 

[Shemar]

However, I concede you're never going to get interesting dialogue and high drama in the film/book sense out of such a thing. If that's all you're after then nobody is going to convince you, but I personally find a lot of fun in the freedom a simulationist/sandbox approach gives, and would like to see it extended in novel ways in new RPGs.

I do not necessarily need "high drama" but for an RPG I do need some kind of plot, some goals for my character that go beyond accumulate power and wealth. So yeah, in a complete sandbox I would not find much that I would characterize 'interesting' except possibly a really good combat system.

 

[JarlFrank]

There really isn't a believable compromise that will solve both the "the entire area descends down upon you" problem and the "enemy passively waits for you until you approach them" and still maintain the "explore enemy stronghold" gameplay. You can probably make things interesting by having the enemy AI defend strong/important points and at the same time organize some sort of reaction force, but really that still boils down to passively waiting except a few that come at you. At least with a traditional Hit Point based combat system. A system with really good stealth mechanics and one shot one kill combat system on the other hand could be both believable and awesome.

Well yeah, I'd just put the strongpoints as general places that a defensively acting AI should use. If the player just waits, a few enemies could try to flank him if it's on the outside or if the player's current room has multiple entrances. Things like that. An AI that uses tactics instead of either waiting passively or charging blindly. Designated strong points would just be places the AI'd defend, but they'd not stand there passively. They might try luring the player to attack by sending out a few ranged combatans shooting the player until he decides to chase.

Generally, what I'd aim for would be an AI that is similar to tactical games. Say, JA2, or heck, even Total War combat (yes I know the AI there sucks but sometimes it does attempt flanking and maneuvers that go beyond either just sitting or just charging).
Then give combat bonuses for backstabs and flanking attacks and you got a p. good system going.

 

[Shemar]

Yeah, with a well supporting combat and stealth system adding 'area level' AI would greatly improve the current 'group level' AI enemies seem to have in most games. The combination of defending critical/strong points while at the same time sending out partrols and search parties can pretty much give a much more believable feel to exploring enemy infested areas while still keeping to the core mechanic of letting the PC/party deal with the enemy in small groups rather then the enire area.

 

[deuxhero]

Wow, I've Gothic never really thought Gothic of Gothic that before. Gothic. It sounds really Gothic good - I hope Gothic some game really opens Gothic that option Gothic soon!

Sorry, shouldn't be a dick about it.

The Gothic games are what you're after though, as a model. It's used extensively in G2 - almost all human enemies will knock you out instead of killing you, whereas animals will kill you (it's also good with animal temperament, in that they won't just blindly attack you on sight - they'll give warning cries/barks/howls first and then attack if you press it).

Similarly, when fighting a human enemy, you knock them out first, and then can kill them if you like when they're on the ground. The neat aspect is that other npcs have very different reactions to killing v knocking someone out. In the seedier parts of town, no-one cares if you k.o. someone, but a murder is a different story. Similarly, town authorities will take murder a lot more seriously than just beating someone up.

Bandits will knock you out and rob you (as will someone if you start a fight with them - you're a mugger, so they'll take your shit for starting a fight with them, but they aren't so psycho as to fucking kill you for it!), - the important aspect is that folks react differently and so it provides a different option. If you let someone live, they'll go and report you to the town guards, while killing them means you won't have to deal with them in the future - but if they're a merchant you might not want that, and there'll be consequences with other npcs.

From what I remember, a similar system was implemented in Risen.

I mentioned Gothic on like... page 1.