NWN Neverwinter Nights: Enhanced Edition - Beamdog's final enhancement - now with new premium modules

[Lilura]

I'm pretty sure I hit F5 more than you.

Spoiler

But my stats are switched to not count my traffic. I don't want to delude myself. Really.

 

[octavius]

For those who doubt my traffic (a few xvarts in this thread), please see "Xvarts chunked this month" on top of right sidebar.

But how many of those Xvarts were respawned ones?

 

[Jason Liang]

I know that the word “full” is dong a lot of work in that sentence, but surely you see the tension here? I’ve never seen anyone else refer to rogue as a caster class;

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...wn2-modules-thread.34529/page-62#post-5392929

Use Magic Device can practically turn them into casters on top of their other talents, among other advantages.

 

[Cael]

I know that the word “full” is dong a lot of work in that sentence, but surely you see the tension here? I’ve never seen anyone else refer to rogue as a caster class;

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...wn2-modules-thread.34529/page-62#post-5392929

Use Magic Device can practically turn them into casters on top of their other talents, among other advantages.

Wait. So the sum of your argument is "someone somewhere on the Internet said so"?

 

[Jason Liang]

Wait. So the sum of your argument is "someone somewhere on the Internet said so"?

lol.
You don't even know who that is.

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

I know that the word “full” is dong a lot of work in that sentence, but surely you see the tension here? I’ve never seen anyone else refer to rogue as a caster class;

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...wn2-modules-thread.34529/page-62#post-5392929

Use Magic Device can practically turn them into casters on top of their other talents, among other advantages.

...bit weird to cite him from the other thread when he just said the below in this one.

and while it is a bit much to claim that Use Magic Device turns them into casters (scrolls and wands cast spells at a preset and usually low caster level, typically rendering them quite weak compared to spells from full-fledged casters), it is nevertheless a very useful skill.

 

[Jason Liang]

At least my opinions between the two threads are consistent with eachother...

 

[Cael]

Wait. So the sum of your argument is "someone somewhere on the Internet said so"?

lol.
You don't even know who that is.

Actually, it is more that I don't care. You see, I am not one of those dumbfucks who believe that Kim Kardashian is THE VOICE to listen to when choosing who to vote for, what cause to support and how I should wipe my ass.

 

[Cael]

At least my opinions between the two threads are consistent with eachother...

Yeah. Sticking to wrong opinions despite the person you quoted having changed his opinion makes you soooooo admirable...

I'd say "typical fucking Mainlander", but that wouldn't be nice.

 

[Lhynn]

Uncanny dodge is extremely important for any dex based class.

Uh.

By extremely important you mean it significantly comes into play 8 or 9 times in a 40 hour long game. The fact of the matter is that NWN series games are too easy. And feats like Uncanny dodge are best substituted (although it can't be because it's generally a class feature) with damage dealing.

No, i mean extremely important as in. If you are fighting an invisible character you will get demolished, its a glaring weakness. Its more of a weakness if you are playing online.

If you mean the OC, then you are retarded, because no one sane plays the OC.

 

[rogueknight333]

Knockdown is a Strength based feat. If you are doing it consistently as a dex-based rogue, you are not a dex-based rogue. Sneak attack in NWN is a novelty at best, until you get Aribeth or Tomi on your side, and then it is murderous as hell. I have seen it when I was with Aribeth and Nathyrra. Both of those ladies were sneak attacking like crazy while my RDD was looking on in bemusement.

Where did you get the idea that Knockdown has something to do with Strength? That is completely inaccurate. Its success is determined simply by one's attack roll, and a DEX char with Weapon Finesse can have perfectly good AB. Knockdown is perfectly viable for DEX characters. To avoid a potential nitpick, Strength is somewhat relevant to defending against Knockdowns since it boosts the Discipline skill, but in my experience Discipline checks are only rarely relevant since an Attack Roll good enough to beat the AC of a tough opponent and hit at all will almost always be good enough to beat the Discipline check as well (certainly one could theoretically encounter foes with high Discipline and low AC, but more often it is the other way around).

The problem with a lot of stuff that is rogue is that it requires a lot of assumptions and perfect situations...

Sneak Attack depends on mobs not being immune, which to be sure they often are. If they are not immune, it is quite easy to generate Sneak Attacks over and over again barring some very unusual circumstances, as I already explained. As for most of a Rogue's other abilities (very strong defense, traps killing just about anything, UMD, skills), you would, again, need to assume some very unusual circumstances for them to NOT be relevant.

And they rely on non-rogue exclusive things (e.g., epic dodge)...

The only way to get Epic Dodge without Rogue levels is to take either 10 Shadowdancer levels or 9+ Monk levels in conjunction with 5+ Shadowdancer levels. These would represent rather specialized builds making it primarily a feat for Rogues. Even if more classes were able to take it, what would that have to do with anything? The point was that high level DEX-based chars are very strong defensively, because of Epic Dodge among other reasons. If I said "Being able to cast Time Stop is a nice feature of Wizards," that is not made untrue by saying "Sorcerers can cast Time Stop too!"

A natural 18 in dex (i.e., 20 dex elf/halfling) is a massive opportunity cost that cripples your character for anything else in the point buy system. What else is that Halfling/elf going to have? 10 Int, 8 Str, 10 con? That is already 8 of your remaining 14 points. Come now, that is hardly a good character to tote around.

STR 10, DEX 20, CON 12, INT 14, WIS 8, CHA 8 is a perfectly viable stat spread. In any case that was just one possible example. Reducing DEX to the 16-19 range if you want more points in other abilities does not fundamentally affect the point made. For that matter, a Rogue with any Fighter levels (for example) could be STR-based, wear Heavy Armor, and use a Tower Shield, and still have AC higher than a pure Fighter's due to being able to put more skill points in Tumble.

I know that the word “full” is dong a lot of work in that sentence, but surely you see the tension here? I’ve never seen anyone else refer to rogue as a caster class;

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...wn2-modules-thread.34529/page-62#post-5392929

Use Magic Device can practically turn them into casters on top of their other talents, among other advantages.

You may note that "practically" does imply qualification of the statement in normal English usage. In any case, it was made in a context in which the advantages of Rogues were being discounted, which encouraged emphasis on those advantages. In a context where our requirements are so stringent that even an actual caster class like Bard cannot be considered a full-fledged caster one can hardly say Rogues are, and an emphasis on the limitations of UMD seems more relevant.

Most pure builds can beat the game...

If we are talking about the OCs, most of the encounters are such cakewalks a competent player could probably pick classes and stats completely at random and be perfectly fine.

 

[fantadomat]

Why don't you people just play the game?

I am,cleared a whole district in the first chapter. Honestly i haven't seen a single improvement in the game. This is their famous Aribeth face change:

Is it me or there is absolutely no change?

Also i feel that the companion AI is worst. There was soo much things that could be improved,like not casting all the spells at once on a some one hit whelp. I feel that all the work they put in this was the streams and the youtube videos. Please Beamdog,go and die in some corner.

 

[Naesaki]

To change Aribeths face you have to download that mod off the steam workshop I believe least I saw one on there anyway from having a cursory glance. Though I thought they were meant to make her new face be the default anyway in EE?

 

[fantadomat]

To change Aribeths face you have to download that mod off the steam workshop I believe least I saw one on there anyway from having a cursory glance. Though I thought they were meant to make her new face be the default anyway in EE?

Soooo you have to download mods to make the game enhanced...hmmmm.

 

[Naesaki]

In Soviet Beamdoggerland, users enhances it themselves!

 

[Roguey]

Seems fine to me. Let the default experience be unaltered and allow people to opt in to changes.

 

[Lacrymas]

Seems fine to me. Let the default experience be unaltered and allow people to opt in to changes.

You mean just like playing the original game, but installing mods when you feel like it or want to change something? Wow, Beamdog sure are geniuses for thinking up that novel concept.

 

[Fedora Master]

Why don't you people just play the game?

I am,cleared a whole district in the first chapter. Honestly i haven't seen a single improvement in the game. This is their famous Aribeth face change:

Exactly my experience. They can't even be bothered to look at the CEP and implement sensible changes and fixes from there.

 

[Jason Liang]

I never technically claimed rogues were casters either. Only that the difference between UMD and casting is pedantic.

 

[aweigh]

Actually the difference between UMD and casting is pretty clear cut.

Other than that I don't have a dog in this fight. My go-to NWN1 class was always dual katana-wielding Fighter/Weapon Master.

:anime:

 

[Cael]

Knockdown is a Strength based feat. If you are doing it consistently as a dex-based rogue, you are not a dex-based rogue. Sneak attack in NWN is a novelty at best, until you get Aribeth or Tomi on your side, and then it is murderous as hell. I have seen it when I was with Aribeth and Nathyrra. Both of those ladies were sneak attacking like crazy while my RDD was looking on in bemusement.

Where did you get the idea that Knockdown has something to do with Strength? That is completely inaccurate. Its success is determined simply by one's attack roll, and a DEX char with Weapon Finesse can have perfectly good AB. Knockdown is perfectly viable for DEX characters. To avoid a potential nitpick, Strength is somewhat relevant to defending against Knockdowns since it boosts the Discipline skill, but in my experience Discipline checks are only rarely relevant since an Attack Roll good enough to beat the AC of a tough opponent and hit at all will almost always be good enough to beat the Discipline check as well (certainly one could theoretically encounter foes with high Discipline and low AC, but more often it is the other way around).

The problem with a lot of stuff that is rogue is that it requires a lot of assumptions and perfect situations...

Sneak Attack depends on mobs not being immune, which to be sure they often are. If they are not immune, it is quite easy to generate Sneak Attacks over and over again barring some very unusual circumstances, as I already explained. As for most of a Rogue's other abilities (very strong defense, traps killing just about anything, UMD, skills), you would, again, need to assume some very unusual circumstances for them to NOT be relevant.

And they rely on non-rogue exclusive things (e.g., epic dodge)...

The only way to get Epic Dodge without Rogue levels is to take either 10 Shadowdancer levels or 9+ Monk levels in conjunction with 5+ Shadowdancer levels. These would represent rather specialized builds making it primarily a feat for Rogues. Even if more classes were able to take it, what would that have to do with anything? The point was that high level DEX-based chars are very strong defensively, because of Epic Dodge among other reasons. If I said "Being able to cast Time Stop is a nice feature of Wizards," that is not made untrue by saying "Sorcerers can cast Time Stop too!"

A natural 18 in dex (i.e., 20 dex elf/halfling) is a massive opportunity cost that cripples your character for anything else in the point buy system. What else is that Halfling/elf going to have? 10 Int, 8 Str, 10 con? That is already 8 of your remaining 14 points. Come now, that is hardly a good character to tote around.

STR 10, DEX 20, CON 12, INT 14, WIS 8, CHA 8 is a perfectly viable stat spread. In any case that was just one possible example. Reducing DEX to the 16-19 range if you want more points in other abilities does not fundamentally affect the point made. For that matter, a Rogue with any Fighter levels (for example) could be STR-based, wear Heavy Armor, and use a Tower Shield, and still have AC higher than a pure Fighter's due to being able to put more skill points in Tumble.

I know that the word “full” is dong a lot of work in that sentence, but surely you see the tension here? I’ve never seen anyone else refer to rogue as a caster class;

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...wn2-modules-thread.34529/page-62#post-5392929

Use Magic Device can practically turn them into casters on top of their other talents, among other advantages.

You may note that "practically" does imply qualification of the statement in normal English usage. In any case, it was made in a context in which the advantages of Rogues were being discounted, which encouraged emphasis on those advantages. In a context where our requirements are so stringent that even an actual caster class like Bard cannot be considered a full-fledged caster one can hardly say Rogues are, and an emphasis on the limitations of UMD seems more relevant.

Most pure builds can beat the game...

If we are talking about the OCs, most of the encounters are such cakewalks a competent player could probably pick classes and stats completely at random and be perfectly fine.

Full of shit. Play the campaigns without a melee companion and generate sneak attacks. Sneak attack is irrelevant.

8 Wis, 8 Cha on a toon meant to use UMD and has a low base Will save, and Con 12 on a melee character with d6 HD. And they believe that this is a good build. I suppose that this build would be abusing UMD like crazy? Oh yeah. That's right. It comes into effect at level 40. Woohoo!!!

Same kind of "logic" used by supporters of any class type of 3.x: A class is super uber and overpowered because it can do EVERYTHING at the same time because I play with toon with 18 base stats across the board and no limits to their spellcasting. I know the right spell or have the right item and have it ready at exactly the right time it is needed at zero opportunity cost. Perfect precognition. It is OP!

 

[Cael]

Actually the difference between UMD and casting is pretty clear cut.

Other than that I don't have a dog in this fight. My go-to NWN1 class was always dual katana-wielding Fighter/Weapon Master.

:anime:

You can technically do it with Bard/RDD/WM, although you would need to be pretty high level before you get WM and epic before TWF kicks in. The problem is the limit of three classes they hard coded in, which they relaxed to 4 in NWN2 (makes it possible to splash Fighter for the bonus feats). Don't know why they put the limit in. There were no PrC when the game was first released.

 

[DarKPenguiN]

Meta gaming motherfuckers...

Almost every class can probably be OP if you sit there and calculate the mathematics behind it and study the shit like you're seeking a cure for cancer.

Cant you just LARP a sex module like the rest of us and gaze at the nude elven whores?

 

[ERYFKRAD]

Almost every class can probably be OP

By the look of things no one class can be OP by itself though, right?

 

[AwesomeButton]

Soooo you have to download mods to make the game enhanced...hmmmm.

In Soviet Beamdoggerland, users enhances it themselves!

Seems fine to me. Let the default experience be unaltered and allow people to opt in to changes.

If EE mods are not compatible with the diamond edition, but diamond edition mods are compatible with the EE... is this true? If yes, then Bumdog are the evilest company yet :D They sell you a theoretically new version of an old game, but you can't run mods made for the new version on an older version. Monetize on future mods, in the making of which you had absolutely no input. Was that the scheme all along?