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NWN Neverwinter Nights: Enhanced Edition - Beamdog's final enhancement - now with new premium modules

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
35,881
Making a fighter is worth it for not having to deal with rote buffing garbage each and every time you enter a fight.

So, anyone here want to talk about the actual game? not the reasons why you arent playing it.

As I've mentioned before, there's nothing to discuss until Beamdog releases a premium mod.
 

Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,746
wtf are you adding, we all know that bard has UMD, I stated that very clearly already you nitwit. The point is that among the UMD classes, rogue is superior to bard in practical effectiveness. If you take a class to get UMD, 4 out of 5 times you'll be better off with rogue instead of bard.
Really? Prove it. What does rogue have that bard doesn't that makes rogue so much more powerful? Taking UMD out of the picture, there is no reason to take rogue. And don't tell me Uncanny Dodge because you torpedoed that yourself when you claim AC has no place in the game.
I have.
- Uncanny Dodge, one of the best class feats in the game
- Evasion, useful against many AoE effects
- +3 skill points/ level over bard, considering bard has to commit 1 skill point to Perform to activate bardsong
- powerful anywhere from 1-16 levels, plateauing at 3 levels, whereas 3 levels of bard is kind of pathetic
- comes with a weapon proficiency while bard comes with jack shit and basically has to commit feats to Lingering Song, etc... bard is crap at fighting
- more class skills such as pick locks, disarm traps and set traps
- no alignment restriction
- no real attribute commitments either, whereas bard has to commit to CHA, an overall mediocre attribute
- starts gaining bonus class feats at level 10, which can be epic feats, whereas most core classes only gain them at lvl 20, including bard.

That's a laundry list of significant advantages and it doesn't even include Sneak Attack which has its uses.

As for RDD I'd rather take Sorcerer since i find 4 levels or so of Sorcerer more useful than 4 levels of Bard just for Tumble and Discipline. Same with Arcane Archer (although I'd rather take wizard over sorcerer for that prestige class).

I didn't claim AC has no place period, learn to read.
All those are trivial stuff. It is like a baby saying that a red jelly bean is nicer than a yellow one because he likes red. This is utterly ridiculous.

Uncanny Dodge is not a super class feat. It is literally shit, especially when you try to wear armour because your Dex bonus is gimped, and it is only useful in very selective situations that you literally don't come across in the official campaigns (none of the rogues are hidden). Uncanny Dodge doesn't make you immune to sneak attacks when you are flanked. Stopping sneak attacks is its only real use.

Evasion is useful vs damage effects. It doesn't help against save or dies, and if you are playing any class in NWN properly, Evasion is nice to have as a backup, but never vital.

3 skills points is useful, but again, not vital, especially when you have 2 skill point per level classes running around. So you can't move as silently as a rogue. So what?

Powerful? As powerful as a gimped Fighter, perhaps. d6 HD, 3/4 BAB, crap weapon selection (comparatively).

Bards have simple weapon proficiency, which is good enough for morning stars and spears. So they don't get rapier and short sword. So what? It has 20 levels of spellcasting to back it up, and a song that can be powerful when used correctly.

I can pick locks with any character. It is called Rod of Frost, which, coincidentally, Bards get for free in the OC right from the prelude. I can disarm traps with Bards also. It is called Summon Monster 1.

Oh my God. You are trying to make a Monk/Rogue? Are you trying to tell me that is the most powerful class combination ever and that is why it is such a bad thing that Bards can't be lawful?

No attribute commitment? Are you daft? Rogues need Intelligence, Dex and if they want to sneak attack, Con to make up for their shit d6 HD.

Rank bullshit. You can't get epic feats at character level less than 20. Every epic feat has a level 21 requirement. You can get go the same with the Fighter bonus feats if your character is level 21. That is one of the reasons that makes Fighter9/Bard1/RDD10 so potent. You start getting bonus Fighter feats as epic feats, more than doubling your epic feat gained.

That is a laundry list of shit, lies and stupidity. You are basically giving up 20 levels of casting and song for 3 skill points and proficiency with short sword and rapier. And you rave about how that is such a good trade off.

4 levels of Sorcerer locks you out of the all important 16 BAB and your 4th attack, you daft fool. Fighter 6/Sorc 4/RDD 10 has a BAB of 15. 4 levels of Bard doesn't (16 exactly). And why you would want to take 4 levels of Bard when 1 is more than enough is beyond me. If you go RDD, you are a melee character, not a fighter-mage. You don't want to waste stat points on Cha.
 

Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,746
Rogue widely considered to be one of the best class? I would need a citation for that one, I'm afraid, because it goes opposite to everything I know about NWN and tabletop.

NWN rogues are very good (there are enough differences in the implementation of the rules to make comparisons to tabletop of dubious relevance). Sneak attack can do massive damage against anything not immune, setting a huge pile of traps is often an easy (if cheesy) way to beat enemies that would be almost impossible for any other class, and while it is a bit much to claim that Use Magic Device turns them into casters (scrolls and wands cast spells at a preset and usually low caster level, typically rendering them quite weak compared to spells from full-fledged casters), it is nevertheless a very useful skill. A typical DEX-based rogue can attain an extremely high AC by epic levels, and in conjunction with feats like Evasion and Epic Dodge is potentially one of the best tanks in the game. They of course also have access to more non-combat skills than any other class. One nice thing about Rogues is that they never stop adding benefits no matter how many levels you take (you keep getting more Sneak Attack damage, more bonus feats, and more skills), while most other classes will sooner or later hit a point of diminishing returns where more levels cease to offer all that much.

That said, Monk is typically a better complement for Druids in particular, since both can get significant benefits from high Wisdom, and it offers many of the same benefits as a few Rogue levels, such as access to Evasion and Tumble as a class skill. With a Monk level and the Zen Archery feat, one can use just the one stat, Wisdom, to boost AB, AC and spell-casting power, and since Ability points are finite the more of them one can concentrate into a single Ability the better. Pure Monks may not be that great, but everything is bad in NWN if single classed (with the possible exception of the four major caster classes (Cleric, Druid, Sorcerer, Wizard - and even they would be less than optimal at level 40 with out a mix-in class or two, just not terrible).

Ultimately one can only assess the value of a class in context: what other classes is it combined with, what sort of magical gear is available in the environment (e.g., whether Monk's WIS bonus is better than using a shield can depend a lot on how good the available shields are), what the typical AB of mobs is (affects what AC one would want to have), etc.

... Bards cast spells, end of story. I agree that they kind of suck in PnP and they must be even worse in single player NWN with only one companion to buff.

Actually Bards are a pretty good class in NWN. It is only in the first NWN campaign that one is limited to a single companion: SOU & HOTU both allow two, and many of the community made modules allow even more. In any case, the buffs of Bard Song from a high level Bard, coupled with the de facto additional buffs from Curse Song (e.g., if you reduce an enemy's AB and AC, you have effectively raised your AC and AB) can be substantial enough that they are nothing to sneeze at even if a Bard has no companions at all and is only buffing himself. A Bard can also easily take rather OP prestige classes like Arcane Archer, Red Dragon Disciple, and Palemaster, and combine them with Song bonuses and miscellaneous buffing spells to become a real powerhouse.

As a rule, the warrior classes are the worst ones in NWN, since Clerics generally make better warriors than the actual warrior classes. They are still quite useful as mix-ins for classes like Rogue, Cleric, and Bard/RDD.
Hence, why I said NWN and TT. I am acknowledging that they are different.

The problem with Sneak Attack in NWN is the same with table top: You are a d6 HD character in light armour in melee. Any half-decent melee enemy would mince you fairly quickly. And you only continue to sneak attack after the first one if you have someone to flank for you or if you have Improved Invisibility on and they can't see invisible creatures.

Wands and scrolls always come with the lowest possible caster level as default. You will always fire 1 magic missile with a wand of magic missile and a 5d6 fireball from a scroll of the same. The main power of UMD is not using scrolls and wands but using items with alignment, class or race restrictions. With a high enough UMD skill, you can use the Holy Avenger as a paladin even though you are a bard. Thing is, UMD has Cha as a base, which means it synergises far better with bard than rogue, especially when you dump Cha as a rogue, as what that idiot seems to be suggesting (by saying it is the least important stat).

Dex based rogues can achieve a mediocre AC. The problem is the +12 limit on bonus to stats. That is a +6 max. You can't get any higher. A Monk, for example, can get +6 in both Wis and Dex and he can be concentrating on Wis as much as a rogue concentrates on Dex. Higher AC by default. The majority of your AC will come from magic items that any class can use but rogues can't (that +5 tower shield, for example, in the base game), although Monks have exclusive dodge AC and bonus dex items that rogues can use if they have enough UMD, and which bards also have access to. As said before, if you truly want a sky high AC, go Monk/Druid. Even a RDD can get pretty good AC by level 20 in the OC (10 + 4 from RDD, 1 from Dex, 13 from red dragon armour, +5 from ring, +5 from amulet, +2 tumble, +4 perma haste boots = 49; note, no shield, no monk boots, no +4 tumble; this is a REAL character who uses TWF but he does have that +5 tower shield as back-up if required, which is never in my experience).

Pure Monks are survivalists. They don't do a lot of damage, but they tend to be able to survive most things thrown at them, with Evasion, SR, high AC, high saves across the board, high movement speed. Good distractors and not bad as aggro attracting tanks. The free cleave and knockdown feats are amongst the best feats a fighter type can get in NWN. Knockdown, in particular, is brutal once you get a chain going. It is my main go to with my Fighter/Bard/RDD. Once it connects, it is basically good game vs any solo enemy. It is possible to tie down two enemies at a time with it, but that is risky and slow going.

Warrior classes are bad with the caveat of fighter due to the way bonus feats interact in NWN. You can utilise bonus feats to pick up epic feats if you meet the epic feat requirement and the epic feat is on your class list of epic feats. That means you can use the fighter bonus feats to pick up epic feats straight off the bat the second your character reaches level 21 (i.e, TWO epic feats at L21, then 1 more again at L23, L24, L25 and two again at L27 for a total of 7 epic feats by L27, when most classes would struggle to get 5). The main advantage, as Rougey said, is that they don't have to buff or rest as often as that is tedious as hell.
 

sstacks

Arcane
Joined
Jan 30, 2014
Messages
1,151
This came across the tweeter today:

Referenced link: https://steamcommunity.com/app/704450/workshop/

ESe2cuC.jpg
 

rogueknight333

Arbiter
Joined
Jul 31, 2017
Messages
353
...And you only continue to sneak attack after the first one if you have someone to flank for you or if you have Improved Invisibility on and they can't see invisible creatures.

Not true. You can take one level of Shadowdancer for Hide in Plain Sight and go in and out of stealth as needed. Knockdowned enemies are also vulnerable to Sneak Attack, so if you have either HIPS or Knockdown you can spam Sneak Attacks almost continuously. Even without either feat it is often possible to run around corners and go back into stealth while briefly out of sight.

You are a d6 HD character in light armour in melee. Any half-decent melee enemy would mince you fairly quickly...Dex based rogues can achieve a mediocre AC. The problem is the +12 limit on bonus to stats. That is a +6 max. You can't get any higher...

The +12 limit is only to magical bonuses to stats, not base stats. An Elf or Halfling could start with 20 DEX, for +5 AC right off the bat. Adding one point of DEX every 4 levels could give him 30 DEX at Lvl 40, with potentially +6 DEX from taking Great Dexterity feats (could theoretically be +7 but that does nothing in this scenario - it might, e.g., if one took only 19 DEX at start) and another +12 DEX from items and perhaps a Cat's Grace spell/potion (the only point at which the +12 limit comes into play). That is a lot of DEX AC, and it is not counting bonuses from Tumble, feats, items, etc. In short, you can ultimately get more AC from Dexterity than from wearing heavy armor (assuming one can get basic clothing with equivalent magical AC bonuses, which is typically the case, especially for a char with UMD), and employing Heavy Armor is the only inherent AC advantage possessed by a non-DEX based char. There is nothing stopping a multi-classed rogue from using a shield if he needs it. With UMD he might well be able cast Improved Invisibility on himself for high Concealment as well. You are also not considering the benefits of Epic Dodge. Naturally this applies more to high level epic rogues than low level ones, and they can indeed sometimes have survivability problems at low level, though even at medium levels their AC is likely enough to compare favorably to that of a warrior, depending on factors like available equipment. At high levels they are potentially among the toughest, tankiest, hardest-to-kill characters in the game. That is not to deny that being able to get AC bonuses from both DEX and WIS is not potentially a big advantage for a Monk, or that there are not Monk builds with even better AC and general defensive benefits (e.g., Monk 13/Shadowdancer 5/Dwarven Defender 22, a tank build I have played on occasion). The trouble with a build that is predominantly Monk, as you say, is that it will have terrible DPS and thus is not good for much except being a tank.
 

Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,746
...And you only continue to sneak attack after the first one if you have someone to flank for you or if you have Improved Invisibility on and they can't see invisible creatures.

Not true. You can take one level of Shadowdancer for Hide in Plain Sight and go in and out of stealth as needed. Knockdowned enemies are also vulnerable to Sneak Attack, so if you have either HIPS or Knockdown you can spam Sneak Attacks almost continuously. Even without either feat it is often possible to run around corners and go back into stealth while briefly out of sight.

You are a d6 HD character in light armour in melee. Any half-decent melee enemy would mince you fairly quickly...Dex based rogues can achieve a mediocre AC. The problem is the +12 limit on bonus to stats. That is a +6 max. You can't get any higher...

The +12 limit is only to magical bonuses to stats, not base stats. An Elf or Halfling could start with 20 DEX, for +5 AC right off the bat. Adding one point of DEX every 4 levels could give him 30 DEX at Lvl 40, with potentially +6 DEX from taking Great Dexterity feats (could theoretically be +7 but that does nothing in this scenario - it might, e.g., if one took only 19 DEX at start) and another +12 DEX from items and perhaps a Cat's Grace spell/potion (the only point at which the +12 limit comes into play). That is a lot of DEX AC, and it is not counting bonuses from Tumble, feats, items, etc. In short, you can ultimately get more AC from Dexterity than from wearing heavy armor (assuming one can get basic clothing with equivalent magical AC bonuses, which is typically the case, especially for a char with UMD), and employing Heavy Armor is the only inherent AC advantage possessed by a non-DEX based char. There is nothing stopping a multi-classed rogue from using a shield if he needs it. With UMD he might well be able cast Improved Invisibility on himself for high Concealment as well. You are also not considering the benefits of Epic Dodge. Naturally this applies more to high level epic rogues than low level ones, and they can indeed sometimes have survivability problems at low level, though even at medium levels their AC is likely enough to compare favorably to that of a warrior, depending on factors like available equipment. At high levels they are potentially among the toughest, tankiest, hardest-to-kill characters in the game. That is not to deny that being able to get AC bonuses from both DEX and WIS is not potentially a big advantage for a Monk, or that there are not Monk builds with even better AC and general defensive benefits (e.g., Monk 13/Shadowdancer 5/Dwarven Defender 22, a tank build I have played on occasion). The trouble with a build that is predominantly Monk, as you say, is that it will have terrible DPS and thus is not good for much except being a tank.
Knockdown is a Strength based feat. If you are doing it consistently as a dex-based rogue, you are not a dex-based rogue. Sneak attack in NWN is a novelty at best, until you get Aribeth or Tomi on your side, and then it is murderous as hell. I have seen it when I was with Aribeth and Nathyrra. Both of those ladies were sneak attacking like crazy while my RDD was looking on in bemusement.

The problem with a lot of stuff that is rogue is that it requires a lot of assumptions and perfect situations. And they rely on non-rogue exclusive things (e.g., epic dodge). A natural 18 in dex (i.e., 20 dex elf/halfling) is a massive opportunity cost that cripples your character for anything else in the point buy system. What else is that Halfling/elf going to have? 10 Int, 8 Str, 10 con? That is already 8 of your remaining 14 points. Come now, that is hardly a good character to tote around.

I am not saying that rogues are a waste of time. What I am saying is that it is not the super class that that idiot makes it out to be. When he considers rogue a full caster class and is better than full casters and that it is somehow the best melee and all round class in the game, something is seriously wrong with the guy. Having played NWN for years, there is not once that I have played rogue without feeling that another class can do things better than it in any situation. That is why I generally leave my roguing to NPCs or use substitutes (said Summon Monster 1, for example).
 

fantadomat

Arcane
Edgy Vatnik Wumao
Joined
Jun 2, 2017
Messages
37,246
Location
Bulgaria
You guys really don't get my satire, i am really sad now:dealwithit:. Could go for a LSD trip. NWN is most definitely an Enchanted edition,+5 illusion and +3 gp drops,only a high level wizard could see any enhancement in the game.
 

Sabotin

Scholar
Joined
Jun 16, 2016
Messages
191
You know, all these issues can be circumvented by playing different modules... There's no build or class that's ideal for all of them. You even have some class-specific modules where their abilities are fleshed out and used to the fullest.
 

Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,746
Roguey speaks the truth. The game is simple unless you are a moron that makes a Monk/bard/Wizard hybrid. Most pure builds can beat the game and Clerics and Druids are just freaking broken. but playing then penalizes you (unless you are an autist, like I suspect Jason Liang is) by having to repetitively rest/buff yourself. Rogue would be a pretty cool class too if 50% of stuff weren't Sneak attack immune.

All in all, if you want to enjoy the content of the game for some godawful autistic reason, you should play a Paladin or a fighter or their hybrid. A monk works great too.
I played straight Druid through all the way from OC to the end of HotU before. Not bad although I used that studded leather armour that gave improved evasion for a very long time. I treated it like a blaster style caster that had a bit of healing who can take a few hits and then when pushed turned into something big and nasty (Fire Elemental is a favourite for the absurd dex and AC compared to other forms). Definitely not a buffing melee combatant. I don't have the patience for that.

I also tried a Monk x/Fighter 4 hybrid for the extra AB, TWF and Weapon Spec (Kama). It got a psychotic number of attacks with a kama (6 main hand, 2 off hand, 1 flurry, 1 haste) and was basically a blender of doom.
 

Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,746
The real advantage of a druid is that its a three in one class. NWN summons are 24Hours. Which makes them silly. You as a druid you can summon a tank, use your animal companion and yourself to deal damage. If you then feel like it, also cast spells. This is also the correct TM strategy to play wizards. Get the pixy companions and use her to open locks and disable traps. Use a summon monster X to deal damage and attract aggro. Rinse repeat.
Summon Monster was 3 rounds +1/level in NWN. At least 1 was. I never used more than that because I only used it to disarm traps.
 

Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,746
The real advantage of a druid is that its a three in one class. NWN summons are 24Hours. Which makes them silly. You as a druid you can summon a tank, use your animal companion and yourself to deal damage. If you then feel like it, also cast spells. This is also the correct TM strategy to play wizards. Get the pixy companions and use her to open locks and disable traps. Use a summon monster X to deal damage and attract aggro. Rinse repeat.
Summon Monster was 3 rounds +1/level in NWN. At least 1 was. I never used more than that because I only used it to disarm traps.
http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Summon_creature_I
That's weird. I distinctly remember not bothering with SM because of the crap duration. Oh well, not like I would be playing that game again any time soon.
 

Jason Liang

Arcane
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Oct 26, 2014
Messages
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Crait
Uncanny Dodge is not a super class feat. It is literally shit, especially when you try to wear armour because your Dex bonus is gimped, and it is only useful in very selective situations that you literally don't come across in the official campaigns (none of the rogues are hidden). Uncanny Dodge doesn't make you immune to sneak attacks when you are flanked. Stopping sneak attacks is its only real use.

You are an idiot who is clearly ignorant of how NWN implements Flat-footedness.
 

Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,746
You are an idiot who is clearly ignorant of how NWN implements Flat-footedness.
My dear boy. Stop trying to impress your leftwing mates. Passing off what you WANT to be real as what is real doesn't make it real. It just makes you a fucktard.
 

Jason Liang

Arcane
Joined
Oct 26, 2014
Messages
8,373
Location
Crait
You are an idiot who is clearly ignorant of how NWN implements Flat-footedness.
My dear boy. Stop trying to impress your leftwing mates. Passing off what you WANT to be real as what is real doesn't make it real. It just makes you a fucktard.
Have you ever not stopped to wonder why the game gives you a foot icon in the upper-lefthand corner pretty much ALL THE TIME?
 

Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,746
Have you ever not stopped to wonder why the game gives you a foot icon in the upper-lefthand corner pretty much ALL THE TIME?
Have you tried to play the game with the rolls displayed and there for know for certain your AC is always correct? And your saves and a bunch of other stuff?

And no. I have noticed the foot icon in the upper left hand corner. That is simply because there isn't one. Sword icon, yes. Spell icon, yes. Foot icon, never.
 

Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,746
Why don't you people just play the game?
I actually haven't played the game in years. It is just funny poking him into spitting out fantasies as if they were real.

It is like going on to a politics forum and saying that the legitimate government of China is the Taiwanese government and consequently China belongs to Taiwan. Hong Kong and Tibet are also not considered part of China but one is an autonomous district that has different cultural roots and the other is a conquered territory.

Then sit back with popcorn ready.
 

Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,746
Uncanny dodge is extremely important for any dex based class.
If you are going to play a fighter type, I don't think dex-based is something you should be going for, especially if you are only going to splash rogue or monk or bard. You're more likely to be going strength based. Besides, Barbarian gives uncanny dodge at L2 instead of L3 (rogue) and if you are going to play a fighter type and really, really, really want UD for some bizarre reason...
 

Cael

Arcane
Joined
Nov 1, 2017
Messages
20,746
Uncanny dodge is extremely important for any dex based class.

Uh.

By extremely important you mean it significantly comes into play 8 or 9 times in a 40 hour long game. The fact of the matter is that NWN series games are too easy. And feats like Uncanny dodge are best substituted (although it can't be because it's generally a class feature) with damage dealing.
An ultra high AC (relative, mind you) is significant usually only in the early game, when most mobs have attack bonuses less than 3. That is when an AC of 21 (half plate + tower shield) becomes amazing as you can't be hit. But when you start going into mid-game, it is far better to just deal damage and kill them ASAP.

In NWN, playing on a map with unlimited mid-high end mobs (vampire fighters, rogues and barbarians, to be exact; map is Winds of Eremor), I basically left my L15 or so toon to autoattack them as they come in. I noticed that it is far more efficient to be dual wielding than to use a 2hd weapon. You tend to be able to kill them at a faster rate, possibly due to your damage being less likely to be wasted (one attack of 5 by a longsword to kill off a 4hp mob vs 1 of 3 attacks from a greatsword to do the same).
 

Kruno

Arcane
Patron
Village Idiot Zionist Agent Shitposter
Joined
Jan 2, 2012
Messages
11,478
Most of those were from me though...
 

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