MotB Character Build

[WanderingThrough2]

So I just slogged my way through NWN2 OC, which was pretty overwhelming in terms of tedium. A major problem for me, perhaps the largest, was the endless flow of items, feats, stats, skills, etc. that I had to puzzle my way through. Never was an AD&D player, so I really had no way of figuring out whether +2 saves (universal), +2 AC (natural), with 7 charges of spiderweb and blue light was better than +4 AC (deflection), +1 dex, protection from mind control, /5 resistance to ice, and so on.

I suppose a serious gamer (a) knows what all those do, (b) figures out the best load-out for a particular situation, and (c) swaps his equipment around as circumstances require. Since that would only amplify my fundamental problem (which is that if I wanted to spend my time minmaxing one hundred different variables I would have become an i-banker), I have no interest in getting good with NWN's system.

That is particularly so because the game was so easy, except when my characters stopped responding to commands, or got stuck on corners, or the camera swung wildly out of sight, or whatever. And unless there is a periapt of decent interface to be found, there's no point in screwing around with equipment.

The problem is, while NWN2 OC seemed unmanageable but easy, MotB seems even more preposterous (20-30 XP levels?) in that it seems to demand multiclassing, which introduces a host of new and unwanted complexity.

So, with that huge windup, my question is: is the game easy enough that if I just take a character and build him up in one class in a way that feels like it's fun, will I be screwed down the line, or is this as easy as the last one? Is there anything I should know in tricking my guy out to avoid having the game less fun? Thanks.

 

[Solohk]

I would recommend Rogue. The only feat you really need to worry about taking is Epic Precision:

Prerequisite: Crippling Strike

Required for: None

Specifics: You deal halved sneak attack damage against creatures that are normally immune to sneak attacks.

With Epic Precision you'll always do good damage, especially if you use Feint to guarantee sneak attacks will land. You also have a ton of skills and skill points, allowing you to max all of the conversation skills (Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate) as well as Use Magic Device to open up equipment options and casting from scrolls. Finally, you'll always be able to pick locks and disable traps so you don't have to worry about finding a Rogue NPC.

As far as feat selection goes, you can really pick whatever you like. If you have no idea what to take you can always just stack Epic Sneak Attack to crank up your damage.

Finally, using a non-casting class for your PC, it makes it pretty easy to go to town with devouring spirits as you'll have less of a need to rest.

 

[Helton]

I don't remember having much trouble in MotB.

I'm not a fan of the DnD system but it isn't that hard to learn and can be fun min-maxing.

And I don't think your example would ever happen. Different types of AC come from different item categories. I don't think you ever have to choose between two types for the same item slot, and different AC types act exactly the same. The difference is that buffs don't stack, only the largest one is active. That +4 natural AC item will be useless if you have a +8 natural AC spell. So you might at well use a different buff entirely for that item slot.

At least that's how I remember it.

 

[WanderingThrough2]

I would recommend Rogue.

In the OC, the time it took to go into sneak mode, tell your companions to hold back, slowly walk around, and then backstab was never justified (at least not with Neeshka). Worth making the effort?

 

[Solohk]

I would recommend Rogue.

In the OC, the time it took to go into sneak mode, tell your companions to hold back, slowly walk around, and then backstab was never justified (at least not with Neeshka). Worth making the effort?

I played through MoTB as a Rogue and never once went into sneak mode. Just take Feint as noted above, and if it lands your attacks for the round become sneak attacks. Or if one of your NPC's has the enemy's attention just position yourself behind the enemy.

 

[deuxhero]

Dip a level (key word being A) in shadow dancer (I would say take 7+assasain levels but the class is fubared in NWN2) for hide in plain sight cheese Attack, move away,, HiPS, attack, move away, wait for the cool down on sneak to go away, HiPS repeat..


Also, there are more ways to gain sneak attack, such as attacking a foe that is targeting someone else (NWN2's stupid as **** implmentation of flanking) then sneaking.

 

[WanderingThrough2]

Is the Rogue class the best for dialogue? In other Avellone games intelligence mattered more than skills.

 

[J1M]

If you don't want to think you could play a Cleric 1/Warlock 29 with the water domain. You get a level draining AOE spell you can spam over and over that does ~80 dmg a round, a way to heal yourself, and the ability to either dispell pesky magic or just turn into a huge demon and melee your way through it. Oh, water domain is so you get the evasion feat for free, which means you will take hardly any spell damage with your charisma boosted saves.

 

[Norfleet]

Finally, using a non-casting class for your PC, it makes it pretty easy to go to town with devouring spirits as you'll have less of a need to rest.

Resting and hunger are really irrelevant. There are spots on the worldmap that are really close together, and if you migrate between them, you will automatically "rest" between each travel. You can then reuse suppress for net gain until your meter refills and craving drops back to zero. You really can just "walk it off".

 

[Solohk]

Aye, but some of us like to give into the craving rather than suppress it, and the OP doesn't want to mess with any "tedium". So, I recommended a non-caster so even if he does decide to give into the cravings, he'll have an easier time dealing with the spirit meter.

Edit:

Is the Rogue class the best for dialogue? In other Avellone games intelligence mattered more than skills.

Your class doesn't matter for dialog skills. All that matters is the skill itself and the bonus you have on it's governing attribute. Example - Charisma at 16 would give you a +3 bonus to your Diplomacy skill. Checks are made against your skill + stat bonus, and not just against raw stats like in PS:T.

 

[WanderingThrough2]

Thanks for all the advice.

In the OC, there were definitely checks against intelligence in dialogue -- that was the only one I saw, though. (There was a strength check in the fire giant's area to toss the boulders, and a dex check to grab the steam, but neither of those made any meaningful difference.)

 

[OccupatedVoid]

NEVER use Recommended for stats.

 

[Warden]

Dip a level (key word being A) in shadow dancer (I would say take 7+assasain levels but the class is fubared in NWN2) for hide in plain sight cheese Attack, move away,, HiPS, attack, move away, wait for the cool down on sneak to go away, HiPS repeat..

That's just an exploit. So if he wants to exploit the idiotic and uncouterable implementation of HiPS by Obsidian... heh, yeah.. idiotic.

 

[Aothan]

This is a timely thread for a random query. I will be making a Druid on a persistent world shortly, really enjoyed the balanced tactical play possible with this class in the original NWN. Chances are I will take spell focus feats in Transmutation, although Conjuration spells (Web, Grease, Vine Mine etc) would also be highly useful.

Okay question, is the dc of a spell: base attribute modifier + spell level + metamagic feats ?

For some of the higher level encounters on your typical pw Im not sure if the average spell would be a sure hit.

 

[Korgan]

Aasimar Paladin/Sorc/RDD/Eldritch Knight. Can fight in melee, great saves, plenty of basic buffs and good firepower. Also, you can go for brute strength with Barbarian/Bard1/RDD/Frenzied Berserker. Huge 2h Power Attack damage and great HP.

 

[Gromnir]

"in that it seems to demand multiclassing, "

doesn't seem to mesh with your earlier comments. you found nwn 2 easy in spite o' relative ignorance o' da rulez. why then would a few additional levels result in a fundamental change?

am gonna call bull shit. you is fibbing 'bout nwn2 or fibbing 'bout nwn2: motb. play a vanilla fighter or cleric or paladin through core campaign w/o experience o' a challenge and sudden come to conclusion that such an approach won't work in motb? based on what pray tell?

bs. calling bs. am not sure why, but you is making bs.

play a vanilla fighter or paladin or cleric... or whatever. motb not penalize you for doing so any more than did nwn2 core.

HA! Good Fun!

 

[Inziladun]

Well after playing through MOTB, I can safely say that it demands multi-classing more than the OC did, precisely for the reason you say it shouldn't. Those additional levels really do make all the difference. 30 levels in any one class really is redundant and you'd find yourself not nearly capable as you're probably supposed to be (or as capable as your companions.)

Of course you could just go pure Fighter or whatever for the hell of it anyway, and do alright in the campaign (I'd imagine you'd have to put the combat on easy for the majority of the expansion though) but it'd probably just be easier on the OP to look up a simple multi-classing build at that rate.

 

[Helton]

20 levels of Fighter is redundant.

Then you start getting epic feats and Fighters kick ass.

So if you can play a straight Fighter in NWN2 then you can probably play a straight Fighter in MotB even better.

 

[Gromnir]

Well after playing through MOTB, I can safely say that it demands multi-classing more than the OC did, precisely for the reason you say it shouldn't. Those additional levels really do make all the difference. 30 levels in any one class really is redundant and you'd find yourself not nearly capable as you're probably supposed to be (or as capable as your companions.)

Of course you could just go pure Fighter or whatever for the hell of it anyway, and do alright in the campaign (I'd imagine you'd have to put the combat on easy for the majority of the expansion though) but it'd probably just be easier on the OP to look up a simple multi-classing build at that rate.

1) bullshit.

the additional levels don't "demand" more multi-classing. game is slightly more difficult, but that got nothing to do with additional levels but rather developer intent. regardless, if a person found oc disturbingly easy, then there is no reason they should need to multi-class in motb... and the reason such a person should believe multi-class is necessary is... odd.

2) for a person who s'posed don't understand d&d rulez, how does complex builds make easier?

for chrissakes, a vanilla fighter making obvious feat choices to becomes uber with their weapon o' choice is easy to play, will result in a very effective character. now compares to the monk/cleric/divine fist builds. gotta make right spell choices and feat choices and gotta play tactically different than vanilla fighter who simply throws self into combat... gotta use spells to buff and make right equipment choices... all those things the original poster seemed confused 'bout. simply choosing a power build not result in easier gameplay... 'specially if rules ain't understood.

play vanilla fighter or mage not require any special builds and it not put player at a kinda insurmountable disadvantage. you found oc boringly easy? then is no reason to thinks motb will be that much more difficult, and clearly no reason to believe that such a d&d tyro will benefit from a power build.

"So if you can play a straight Fighter in NWN2 then you can probably play a straight Fighter in MotB even better."

true enough. same goes for paladin. is tough to get those epic paladin feats if you is only taking a handful of paladin levels. an epic level rogue? never found a good reason to takes more than 3 levels o' rogue in the original campaign... but in the oc we could go 100% rogue and has a pretty damn useful combatant 'cause o' the epic feats.

HA! Good Fun!

 

[Inziladun]

20 levels of Fighter is redundant.

Then you start getting epic feats and Fighters kick ass.

So if you can play a straight Fighter in NWN2 then you can probably play a straight Fighter in MotB even better.

At that rate you might as well take some levels in Weapon Master, because that's better than just pure fighter.

the additional levels don't "demand" more multi-classing. game is slightly more difficult, but that got nothing to do with additional levels but rather developer intent. regardless, if a person found oc disturbingly easy, then there is no reason they should need to multi-class in motb... and the reason such a person should believe multi-class is necessary is... odd.

Additional levels do make multiclassing a much more appealing option. Just think of it this way, in levels 1-5, seeing characters who are multiclasses are much more rare than say levels 10-15. Personally I've never heard of anyone playing ONE class all the way to level 30, except for a Warlock player once.

for chrissakes, a vanilla fighter making obvious feat choices to becomes uber with their weapon o' choice is easy to play, will result in a very effective character. now compares to the monk/cleric/divine fist builds. gotta make right spell choices and feat choices and gotta play tactically different than vanilla fighter who simply throws self into combat... gotta use spells to buff and make right equipment choices... all those things the original poster seemed confused 'bout. simply choosing a power build not result in easier gameplay... 'specially if rules ain't understood.

Just because the feat choices are more obvious doesn't necessarily make it an easier class to actually play. Simply writing down what others suggest you take will handle any sort of confusion in the leveling screen. And Multi-classing != Tactical Complexity. For example a RDD, Barb, FB, Bard build is simply a click and destroy type of build, periodically hitting berserk when you need too. There's nothing tactically special you need to do.

play vanilla fighter or mage not require any special builds and it not put player at a kinda insurmountable disadvantage. you found oc boringly easy? then is no reason to thinks motb will be that much more difficult, and clearly no reason to believe that such a d&d tyro will benefit from a power build.

Well you're right, you wouldn't suspect MOTB to be much more difficult than the OC, but you'd suspect wrongly. It is indeed much more difficult, mainly due to the heavy reliance on spells.



Anyway, the point I was trying to get off was that going a pure class is certainly viable, but multi-classing is much more efficient and I believe just taking the 30 minutes to read and understand a certain build you're interested in would be easier in the long haul than chugging it through the expansion with a pure build just because you don't know which feats are worth taking.

 

[Gromnir]

"At that rate you might as well take some levels in Weapon Master, because that's better than just pure fighter."

but hardly necessary. barely makes much o' a difference for a high level fighter 'cause you is still gonna be hitting with virtually every possible attack.


"Additional levels do make multiclassing a much more appealing option."

again, is not 'bout "appealing." is suggestion that multi-class is necessary. Gromnir has played pure cleric to 30 btw. were not any more difficult than our rogue/cleric builds from nwn 2 or the crazy combos experimented with in motb.

"There's nothing tactically special you need to do."

even less complicated with a pure fighter.

"Well you're right, you wouldn't suspect MOTB to be much more difficult than the OC, but you'd suspect wrongly."

sorry, but you is spouting bs. is not that much more difficult, and for somebody who breezed through the nwn2 oc the difference is negligible. is no more reliance 'pon spells in nwn2 than in motb. enemies is smarter, and so maybe you felt like You had to rely on spells more, but has nothing to do with increase in levels... is simply that enemy tactics were better... and the stoopid sleep cycle penalty made so you could not spam spells... but that got nothing to do with uber builds. again, 'cause of a NON-D&D rule, spam spells is not an effective approach in motb as it were in the nwn2 oc... and overcome the sleep cycle penalty is not best overcome with uber builds.


"Anyway, the point I was trying to get off was that going a pure class is certainly viable,"

really?

"Of course you could just go pure Fighter or whatever for the hell of it anyway, and do alright in the campaign (I'd imagine you'd have to put the combat on easy for the majority of the expansion though)"

gotta different definition o' viable if you is suggesting that a vanilla fighter would have to lower difficult to easy. again, am gonna call bs... both to your conclusion and to your recharacterization. if a player found the oc super easy, then he/she can no doubt play a motb vanilla fighter, wizard , paladin, rogue or bard up to level 30... w/o having to drop the difficulty slider.

*snort*

as noted by others in this thread, there is some very nice feats pay-offs for those folks who go +20 levels o' pure class.

HA! Good Fun!

 

[Inziladun]

but hardly necessary. barely makes much o' a difference for a high level fighter 'cause you is still gonna be hitting with virtually every possible attack.

again, is not 'bout "appealing." is suggestion that multi-class is necessary. Gromnir has played pure cleric to 30 btw. were not any more difficult than our rogue/cleric builds from nwn 2 or the crazy combos experimented with in motb.

Well that's all fine and dandy, but I never said multiclassing was necessary. And maybe it wasn't any easier than your builds when you went pure cleric because your buildssuck(that and clerics kick major ass in MOTB, cross that, always)?

even less complicated with a pure fighter.

You're right, as a fighter the only thing you do is make sure cleave and power attack is on.

The OP said he didn't know how to build a decent character, not that he was a total retard when it came to pressing buttons in combat.

sorry, but you is spouting bs. is not that much more difficult, and for somebody who breezed through the nwn2 oc the difference is negligible. is no more reliance 'pon spells in nwn2 than in motb. enemies is smarter, and so maybe you felt like You had to rely on spells more, but has nothing to do with increase in levels... is simply that enemy tactics were better... and the stoopid sleep cycle penalty made so you could not spam spells... but that got nothing to do with uber builds. again, 'cause of a NON-D&D rule, spam spells is not an effective approach in motb as it were in the nwn2 oc... and overcome the sleep cycle penalty is not best overcome with uber builds.

Yeah ok, it's not any more difficult, but the enemies were smarter and used better tactics. And there were restrictions on sleeping and this doesn't have any effects on any of the builds.

"Of course you could just go pure Fighter or whatever for the hell of it anyway, and do alright in the campaign (I'd imagine you'd have to put the combat on easy for the majority of the expansion though)"

gotta different definition o' viable if you is suggesting that a vanilla fighter would have to lower difficult to easy. again, am gonna call bs... both to your conclusion and to your recharacterization. if a player found the oc super easy, then he/she can no doubt play a motb vanilla fighter, wizard , paladin, rogue or bard up to level 30... w/o having to drop the difficulty slider.

Capable of success or continuing effectiveness; practicable: a viable plan; a viable national economy. See Synonyms at possible.

 

[inwoker]

Is it just me being smarter and less lazy in childhood or in IE-games it was way easier? Because I remmember understanding system without any manual with no knowledge of D&D. Oh actually my first IE game was Icewind Dale. So I learned there, but still it was diablo-level easy for me.
NWN system is a way too complex for me. I believe it's combination of over-complicated system, trying to make it possible in real-time and at least challenging. Still the question is why that was easier to grasp in IE-games?

 

[WanderingThrough2]

Inziladun gets my problem with the game. Clicking in combat has never been a challenge for me -- in my youth I was quite a Wacraft II / Starcraft prodigy. The problem is that the rules are so byzantine and arcane that absent a significant investment of time to figure them out, it's very easy to make bad choices. And these aren't interesting bad choices. Is Improved Criticals or Improved Weapon Focus the better feat? Maybe there's an answer; maybe there isn't. But that's not a decision that's fun for the player; at least not for me.

If I had some interest in being a competitive NWN2 player, maybe I'd spend the hours to figure out how all the different rule subsystems interacted, what the different but seemingly related statistics all meant, and so on. But I have no interest in that at all. I have some, slight, interest in enjoying the tactical elements of the combat system, but not very much, since the interface is so bad and the combats so inconsequential. I just want to know enough to:

(1) Have a character that can complete the game without any reloading.
(2) Be able to get the most out of the dialogue and C&C aspects of the game.
(3) Not require statistical / equipment micromanaging.

I would also, I guess, prefer not to have too much combat micromanaging, but that's not such a big deal.

I would be amenable to turning the difficulty down, since at least in the OC, there was no dramatic tension to the "hard" combats anyway, except for the dragon (sort of) and final boss (sort of). Every other boss battle ended in a matter of seconds due to the fact that they were in open areas where I could mass-attack the boss and dump AoE spells on the henchmen.

Part of my worry for why MotB might be more "difficult" is just that the decisions on what feats to take became much more difficult as I got higher in level. I imagine that's even worse when I've got to multiclass. I mean, who would ever think, in the absence of mastery o fthe ruleset, that you should mix "RDD, Barb, FB, Bard." (I don't even know what the two abbreviations are for.) AD&D is all about recreating fantasy archetypes, I thought, and I can't come up with many bizarre hybrid classes like Conan / Pied Pipers.

 

[Helton]

Okay, summary.

In answer to the original question. Yes. You can probably get through MotB with a mono-class character without too much headache.

Alternatively you can go to gamefaqs and get a cookiecutter badass build like the RDD(Red Dragon Disciple)-Bard- Barbarian-FB(Frenzied Barbarian[?]).

Alternatively again you could learn an in or an out here or there to be able to rig up a decent custom class.

(1) Have a character that can complete the game without any reloading.
(2) Be able to get the most out of the dialogue and C&C aspects of the game.
(3) Not require statistical / equipment micromanaging.

1. How the fuck would we know what you're capable of with any given character? Level 20-30 Fighter is no doubt capable. Whether you'll pull it off is up to you.
2. Yeah I think you're okay with a single conversation skill for most of the game. Wizards and Rogues should be able to master several.
3. No build in the game exists in a vacuum from equipment and buff min-maxing. Sorry.

Hey gayz is it pusible to beat Helf-Lief onlyt with crawbar & never reloads?



Maybe you should try a pure Monk. They pretty much build themselves and are decent enough all around.