Morrowind was massive decline and should be considered as such

[Lemming42]

"it's small but hand-crafted!!" Nice, but many of the elements within that small but handcrafted world suck.

Yeah but in a large and procedurally generated world EVERY element sucks, it's a necessary side effect of "roguelike elements" that 99% of the content is going to be shit.

Hand-made is always better, no exceptions.

Except Daggerfall is made of hand-made content that's provided to the player in a randomised way. The quests in DF are written by human developers (and a lot of them are conceptually interesting), the dungeon prefabs are designed by human developers, the city blocks are designed by human developers, the dialogue is written by human developers. The game just shuffles it and offers it to the player in ways that make each run unique. The game lies in experiencing this content in a fresh way each time, and also relying on the game's mechanics to interact with the world (eg relying on magic and athletics skills to navigate the dungeons). I don't agree that 99% of the content is shit, because I think the quests are often interesting, the mechanics largely work, and the dungeons are often constructed in fairly cool ways, the only weakness being that you will see blocks start to repeat after a while.

MW's handmade content may as well be procgen'd half the time - dungeons are samey and usually very underwhelming (and I've heard they actually were sometimes made with procgen, can anyone explain more about this, if it's true?), quests are often tedious busywork both mechanically and narratively, most NPCs have no character and mostly share the same robotic responses, etc. They brought many of the weaknesses you might associate with a roguelike into a much smaller handmade game, with all the tradeoffs that entails.

 

[JarlFrank]

Except Daggerfall is made of hand-made content that's provided to the player in a randomised way.

Which is why you get the feeling of "dungeon vu" after crawling through five of them because the same building blocks appear everywhere. That's not an argument in its favor.

In fact, Daggerfall would be a better game if it only had a dozen dungeons all designed by hand, because the dungeon design itself is really good - it's just that 99% of dungeons feel the same.
The highlight of the game are the main quest dungeons whose elements weren't re-used elsewhere.

 

[Lemming42]

It'd obviously benefit from having a much larger number of dungeon blocks, but even when you arrive in a block you've seen before, it can connect with different blocks in new and interesting ways (there's that block that involves two elevators separated by a moving wall and a small corridor, which sometimes drops you into something completely different).

I'd challenge the idea that MW's dungeons are an improvement - I agree in theory that a good handcrafted dungeon is better than any procgen dungeon (and I agree that DF's main quest dungeons are the best in the game), but I'd suggest that MW doesn't offer good handcrafted dungeons, for the most part. They lose most of the strengths of DF's dungeons while not seizing the potential that could have been offered by smaller, more unique, handmade dungeons. People rag on Oblivion's Ayleid ruins - correctly, because they're an absolute chore to navigate - but Morrowind's caves, ancestral tombs and Dwemer ruins aren't any better or more structurally interesting, IMO.

 

[skaraher]

Except Daggerfall is made of hand-made content that's provided to the player in a randomised way.

Which is why you get the feeling of "dungeon vu" after crawling through five of them because the same building blocks appear everywhere. That's not an argument in its favor.

In fact, Daggerfall would be a better game if it only had a dozen dungeons all designed by hand, because the dungeon design itself is really good - it's just that 99% of dungeons feel the same.
The highlight of the game are the main quest dungeons whose elements weren't re-used elsewhere.

Daggerfall MQ dungeons arent randomized and are really memorables. The randomized roguelike generic side quest dungeons are a lot of fun but it still a deeply flawed system and it forces you to sometimes heavily rely on debug command as some quest-items spawn points are literally unreachable.

While Daggerfall had a lot of overworld interaction in theory, in practice it wasnt really deep and you'd see the majority of it in a few hours. Asking a NPC for directions, getting to a house, picking up the item quickly gets old. The real meat of the game is in its dungeons.

 

[luj1]

the beauty of daggerfall is entering a dungeon and taking 2 months to find an exit

none is disputing it isnt fun, but hand made is also fun. just a different approach

 

[janior]

the beauty of daggerfall is entering a dungeon and taking 2 months to find an exit

...and after 5 hours you check and find out that the quest item/mob spawned outside of the dungeon map in the void you can't reach without cheating - that's classic daggerfall experience. I still like daggerfall but it really gets boring fast and the only content actually worth pursuing is the main quest sadly.

 

[skaraher]

I think Castle Necromoghan is the only MQ dungeon with randomized quest item spawn point, and it is also optional.

 

[Lemming42]

I don't think I've ever had a quest target spawn literally outside the map. They sometimes spawn in bullshit-y locations (eg behind a secret door that is itself locked behind a switch/wall puzzle that only a character with levitation could reach), but never in places that are actually impossible to reach. Though I haven't played the DOS version in some time, maybe quest targets were patched in Unity.

 

[janior]

imagine if those quests had better handcrafted dungeons and actual writing, hope someone will take dfunity one day and make an actual crpg out of it because the systems are good, a man can dream

 

[luj1]

MW doesn't offer good handcrafted dungeons

Morrowind's caves, ancestral tombs and Dwemer ruins aren't any better or more structurally interesting

i have a better theory

you are just a chicken brain

Casting levitate and finding a Daedric helm on a fucking ledge 10 meters up in a cave is structurally interesting

Discovering a sunken shrine underwater by merely following non-journal rumors is structurally interesting

Finding an alternative entry point into a dungeon hidden behind a waterfall in a nearby tomb on a small island is structurally interesting

Morrowind dungeons are pretty cool because they are hand-crafted and utilize verticality a lot

There is an incredible ammount of secret areas, hidden items and various details. And the best part is its all optional and up to you

This environmental storytelling is a concept that small minded peasants such as yourself cannot even notice

 

[luj1]

Morrowind and Daggerall are like brothers, two sides of the same coin. They dont even offer the same feel, like Morrowind/Oblivion/Skyrim.

You can say that Oblivion is decline from Morrowind, or that Skyrim is decline from Oblivion, which is true, but dev philosophy and core pillars are too different between Dagerfall and Morrowind

 

[Lemming42]

There is an incredible ammount of secret areas, hidden items and various details. And the best part is its all optional and up to you

Yeah, but for every Urshilaku Burial Caverns, there's plenty of worthless shit like this (and this is a quest dungeon):

You can say that Oblivion is decline from Morrowind, or that Skyrim is decline from Oblivion, which is true, but dev philosophy and core pillars are too different between Dagerfall and Morrowind

But the thing is, it's not just that it's a "decline" from Daggerfall, it's that it doesn't make the most of the change in dev philosophy. You absolutely can make a game that retains many of DF's strong points while also benefitting from the opportunities offered by a smaller and more focused worldspace, but Morrowind generally isn't that game - combat is poor despite being a major focus of the game, range of viable character builds is needlessly reduced, NPCs have no routines even in the most basic sense of stores closing at night (which cripples thief classes and makes the game lose out on the sense of """immersion""" that could be offered by the smaller handcrafted world), and all the other shit we mentioned.

The question isn't just how MW compares to DF, it's also how well MW stands on its own and how much it made of the potential offered by the new format. The weaker dungeons aren't just weak because they're not like the ones in DF, they're weak because they're not very good on their own.

 

[likash]

GTFO with this shit. Morrowind was Bethesda's last good game.

 

[NecroLord]

There is an incredible ammount of secret areas, hidden items and various details. And the best part is its all optional and up to you

Yeah, but for every Urshilaku Burial Caverns, there's plenty of worthless shit like this (and this is a quest dungeon):

You can say that Oblivion is decline from Morrowind, or that Skyrim is decline from Oblivion, which is true, but dev philosophy and core pillars are too different between Dagerfall and Morrowind

But the thing is, it's not just that it's a "decline" from Daggerfall, it's that it doesn't make the most of the change in dev philosophy. You absolutely can make a game that retains many of DF's strong points while also benefitting from the opportunities offered by a smaller and more focused worldspace, but Morrowind generally isn't that game - combat is poor despite being a major focus of the game, range of viable character builds is needlessly reduced, NPCs have no routines even in the most basic sense of stores closing at night (which cripples thief classes and makes the game lose out on the sense of """immersion""" that could be offered by the smaller handcrafted world), and all the other shit we mentioned.

The question isn't just how MW compares to DF, it's also how well MW stands on its own and how much it made of the potential offered by the new format. The weaker dungeons aren't just weak because they're not like the ones in DF, they're weak because they're not very good on their own.

I, for one, missed the immensity of the dungeons in Daggerfall compared to those of Morrowind. Really, there was always a sense of dread whenever exploring them, the darkness, you could immediately identify monsters by the sounds they make (hello Ancient Vampires and Liches...).

 

[skaraher]

Morrowind dont have dungeons as complex and fun as Mantella Crux or Castle Daggerfall.

It did really well with Arkntang (and as its the first dwemer ruins you find it leaves a lasting impression. But in fact its one of the larger ones you'll explore, most of them are corridors with a few rooms.) Illunibi, Kogorruhn and Urshilaku burial grounds but for the rest... I completed Morrowind a few times and the only dungeon outside the main path that was really memorable was the one with the secret ship burial ground. Also the last act Sixth House Fortresses + Dagoth Ur really dropped the ball hard.

Also :

Centuries ago, Tiber Septim ruled the land and forged an empire with great Numidium. The secret of Numidium's power lies in its heart, carried within the Mantella. It is the heart of Tiber Septim's battlemage. It is my heart. It is my Mantella. It is my Totem. It belongs to me, and to none other. I have won and lost an empire. I have no desire to tamper further with mortal affairs.

 

[Lemming42]

Mantellan Crux is so good that I've never been able to figure out why Bethesda never tried to replicate it. Morrowind ends with the crap fortresses, Oblivion ends with the absolute nothingburger in the Imperial City (unless you count Paradise as the true final dungeon, in which case it's a little bit better), Skyrim ends with the enormous waste of time that is Sovengard. You can tell they're kind of trying to recreate the Crux's feeling of things getting surreal, but the actual dungeons are never anywhere near as creative.

Love Direnni Tower as well, though it's a big mistake to make the player navigate it about six times over the course of the game. When you finally learn the route through that one, it's ridiculously fun to speedrun straight up to Medora.

 

[Nikanuur]

In total, Morrowind got rid on daggerfall 2 hours OST -> 50 minutes in Morrowind

Don't speak of Daggerfall OST to me, I still get the Tavern #2 melody stuck in my head before sleep whenever I remember it. NOOOO IT HAPPENED AGAIN!

 

[skaraher]

 

[Lemming42]

The "Oversnow" music is something really special. It's the song I always think of to represent old TES. Perfectly captures the sense of unease, darkness and eerieness mixed with strange beauty and hope that characterises much of Arena and Daggerfall.



For some reason, the swimming music from Arena always stands out to me too, even though it only ever plays if you trip and fall into a puddle while in a town.

 

[perfectslumbers]

God Daggerfall and Arena music just instantly transports me there. Some of the most atmospheric and immersive games ever made.

 

[Old Hans]

I, for one, missed the immensity of the dungeons in Daggerfall compared to those of Morrowind. Really, there was always a sense of dread whenever exploring them, the darkness, you could immediately identify monsters by the sounds they make (hello Ancient Vampires and Liches...).

I cant remember if Morrowind was released on console alongside PC....but that could be why the dungeons were so tiny. xbox 360 had like 3 kilobytes of vram.

 

[NecroLord]

I, for one, missed the immensity of the dungeons in Daggerfall compared to those of Morrowind. Really, there was always a sense of dread whenever exploring them, the darkness, you could immediately identify monsters by the sounds they make (hello Ancient Vampires and Liches...).

I cant remember if Morrowind was released on console alongside PC....but that could be why the dungeons were so tiny. xbox 360 had like 3 kilobytes of vram.

It was released on the Xbox, but PC had priority.

 

[luj1]

There is an incredible ammount of secret areas, hidden items and various details. And the best part is its all optional and up to you

Yeah, but for every Urshilaku Burial Caverns, there's plenty of worthless shit like this (and this is a quest dungeon):

.

no

not every dungeon should be a mega theme park, dont be dumb

that one looks exactly like an actual tomb

 

[Lemming42]

that one looks exactly like an actual tomb

Yeah, and Fallout 3 metros look exactly like metros, but they're still samey, relentlessly dull to navigate, and ultimately amount to a waste of the player's time. See also: Ayelid ruins from Oblivion, and pretty much every single dungeon in Fo4. It's a problem Todd-era Bethesda run into in all their games. I'm guessing you're not going to make this same defence of Starfield's procgen world outposts, which are universally regarded as shit.

I'm not asking for a "mega theme park", but I am ideally asking for dungeons that add something to the game beyond giving you three rooms with a handful of enemies to kill, and engage the player in some way beyond just making the short walk to the end room. Again, part of the issue is that most dungeons in Morrowind (and Oblivion, and Skyrim, and now the procgen'd ones in Starfield) don't let you use your character's skills in any way other than stabbing/frying shit*, so they all become an exercise in pointlessness - go in, kill everyone (which willl take about four seconds given how easy and busted the combat is), done.

*Oblivion and Skyrim both allow for more comprehensive stealth gameplay than MW, obviously, but neither game actually expects you to do it and shit starts to go awry if you try

Again, Starfield is hitting the exact same issue with these "outposts". They share the problems of Morrowind's ancestral tombs and small caves - yeah, they look like real remote outposts, but they're also a drag because they're so small, samey, and easy to navigate, with no reason to visit unless you want to kill four more of the same enemy you've killed hundreds of already, pick up some crap loot, and look at the same uggo dungeon textures you've already seen tens of times. 21 years of not learning lessons, that's the Todd Howard way.

 

[luj1]

they're an absolute chore to navigate

they're also a drag

there you have it

go play angry birds, ADHD-ridden faggot