ME3 might just plain suck now.

[Luzur]

EVERYTHING WORKED BETTER THEN EXPECTED I GUESS.

 

[Texas Red]

Christina Norman, lead gameplay designer of the ME series, has left Bioware:

Bioware: releasing control.

 

[SuicideBunny]

Christina Norman, lead gameplay designer of the ME series, has left Bioware:

sounds like it has a real chance of sucking less, then.

 

[thursdayschild]

Christina Norman also explains that in Mass Effect 1 when you level up, it interrupts gameplay and when you pause the game to level up and jump back into the action, you do not know what’s going on.

Christina Norman, the woman that couldn't into stats, equipment modding and useful combat magic in space fantasy. We are all diminished by this loss.

Space fantasy combat magic. Yeah we probably aren't missing much.

But game designer these days is like executive producer in tv, a title with nothing to do with what you really do. An honest title would be project manager.

Lead designer, and the game has 5 designers? On mass effect series? If more than an hour of thought went into the gameplay I'd be shocked. I mean an hour of thought by someone with a brain, of course, something most people seem to lack as I've seen people struggle endlessly to decide where to place a single button.

 

[sea]

Lead designer, and the game has 5 designers? On mass effect series? If more than an hour of thought went into the gameplay I'd be shocked. I mean an hour of thought by someone with a brain, of course, something most people seem to lack as I've seen people struggle endlessly to decide where to place a single button.

You oversimplify. There is a lot of work in game design beyond "okay press X to shoot dudes," even in shooters. Everything from movement speed in enemies and friendly characters, to damage and hit point values of weapons, to the controls, to the user interface, to the "feel" of gameplay (such as how "sticky" a cover system is or how weapons handle), to the overall structure of the game, to pacing and level design, to equipment and ability progression, etc. all go through game designers, which might operate under other titles like systems designers or level designers for more specific roles. It's a designer's job to have a holostic understanding not just of the game, but of the tools used to make it, and the team making it. A designer's role is as much coming up with ideas as it is coordinating and managing a large team of people, keeping them all on the same page as each other, making sure information gets communicated successfully, managing playtesting and balance, creating documentation for all of that (which often spans thousands of pages), etc.

It's legitimate to say that the gameplay in something like Mass Effect is simple, but don't assume that actually making that gameplay, is equally simple. Just because a game's mechanics aren't obviously complicated doesn't mean there isn't just as much going on behind the scenes that isn't exposed to the player and doesn't have to go through the wringer.

 

[MetalCraze]

sea brings lulz once again.

Yes giving you a weapon that deals 20 damage per second and putting a static enemy that isn't even AI with 100 hp behind the box for 8 hours is an extremely complicated game design. Especially considering that everything that enemy does is either being exposed to a shot or not.
While the same goes for the player.

Considering that it looks like UE3 probably has an "auto create another Gears of War clone" button which spawns overly complicated design-y linear corridors randomly filled with boxes - this takes sooooo muuuuchhh woooorkkk

 

[sea]

sea brings lulz once again.

Yes giving you a weapon that deals 20 damage per second and putting a static enemy that isn't even AI with 100 hp behind the box for 8 hours is an extremely complicated game design. Especially considering that everything that enemy does is either being exposed to a shot or not.
While the same goes for the player.

Considering that it looks like UE3 probably has an "auto create another Gears of War clone" button which spawns overly complicated design-y linear corridors randomly filled with boxes - this takes sooooo muuuuchhh woooorkkk

Have you ever actually bothered doing any game development at all, or are you just talking out of your ass again?

 

[thursdayschild]

Lead designer, and the game has 5 designers? On mass effect series? If more than an hour of thought went into the gameplay I'd be shocked. I mean an hour of thought by someone with a brain, of course, something most people seem to lack as I've seen people struggle endlessly to decide where to place a single button.

You oversimplify. There is a lot of work in game design beyond "okay press X to shoot dudes," even in shooters. Everything from movement speed in enemies and friendly characters, to damage and hit point values of weapons, to the controls, to the user interface, to the "feel" of gameplay (such as how "sticky" a cover system is or how weapons handle), to the overall structure of the game, to pacing and level design, to equipment and ability progression, etc. all go through game designers, which might operate under other titles like systems designers or level designers for more specific roles. It's a designer's job to have a holostic understanding not just of the game, but of the tools used to make it, and the team making it. A designer's role is as much coming up with ideas as it is coordinating and managing a large team of people, keeping them all on the same page as each other, making sure information gets communicated successfully, managing playtesting and balance, creating documentation for all of that (which often spans thousands of pages), etc.

It's legitimate to say that the gameplay in something like Mass Effect is simple, but don't assume that actually making that gameplay, is equally simple. Just because a game's mechanics aren't obviously complicated doesn't mean there isn't just as much going on behind the scenes that isn't exposed to the player and doesn't have to go through the wringer.

Wow that is some grade A bullshit that could come from any XTreme or Agile "Software Engineering" book.

I disagree, it's simple unless you are a moron. None of the game designers are real programmers, the reason they are given titles is to make up for their weak pay they get since they are not.

I have spoken. And as the world's greatest living programmer, my opinion is the only one that counts.

 

[MetalCraze]

I take it you can enlighten me on a game development as you've done a lot of it?

A random console shooter level can be designed in paint in under 2 minutes. Then you just copy paste it 100 times and you have your 8 hours long shit shooter like Mass Effect. Just get some artists to draw different textures for the same box.

2 minutes and the superawesome 10 minutes of gameplay are ready!

I'm now seriously considering getting a lead game designer job at Epic/Bioware/Activision/EA

 

[J1M]

I haven't played the two Mass Effects.

Am I missing out on anything? I don't really like any non Star Wars science fiction. Mainly because of the music. So if Mass Effect has similar music to that found in Star Wars you should inform me cause its the deciding factor.

Star Wars is not science fiction. It is a fantasy western set in space. Stars outside the window != sci fi.

EDIT: Skyway that is an awesome diagram. I just wish you wouldn't let that other person log into your account to discuss specific games.

 

[Black]

I can't wait for tasteless Codex fags to install that EA piece of shit system and bioware piece of shit game

 

[Freelance Henchman]

I hope they take some design pointers from Alpha Protocol, the best action RPG of recent years.

 

[sea]

I take it you can enlighten me on a game development as you've done a lot of it?

I've been working on a large mod project for the last six months and have several years' experience doing my own level design work across various game editors, which I've been using for close to a decade. I have no professional experience, but I hope to change that in the future.

A random console shooter level can be designed in paint in under 2 minutes. Then you just copy paste it 100 times and you have your 8 hours long shit shooter like Mass Effect. Just get some artists to draw different textures for the same box.

http://s015.radikal.ru/i332/1107/a7/72bd54d99657.jpg

2 minutes and the superawesome 10 minutes of gameplay are ready!

I'm now seriously considering getting a lead game designer job at Epic/Bioware/Activision/EA

Sarcasm aside, you're still oversimplifying. To take your example of a typical level from Mass Effect...

What makes them work? How many enemies in each? What type? What is their intended relative strength to the player, as expressed in previous design iterations and documents? What weapons and techniques is the player equipped with? Have you built the level with these in mind, and if so, how? How do these individual encounters as a whole relate to the larger game? Are there any puzzle or other elements in between? Have you considered adding multiple routes, multiple levels of elevation for greater variety and freedom? What sorts of things do you want to communicate visually during this section of gameplay, and what can we learn about the narrative and characters? If there is dialogue, how many lines, and where does it occur (or is it triggered by something else)? Are there any mission objectives, and how do they tie into the game at large? Do these scenarios favour long-range tactics, short-range tactics, or a blend? Will there be any special constraints put on the player during this section of the game, and if so, do these fit with the overall game's tone and play style? What are the movement speeds of the enemies encountered? How frequently do they attack? What tactics do they use? What weapons are they equipped with? Are there any bosses? If so, what makes them different?

Once you've answered those questions, please enumerate them in full and complete detail, per the specifications and format laid out by the rest of the design team, and express precise numerical values of all variables that are relevant to the situation. Please also provide an estimate as to how many new art assets would be required, how much unique scripting and programming is required, new sound effects, voice-over, etc., as well as an estimate as to the number of staff required and hours, weeks or days required, and set up a milestone timeline for implementing all of these in an efficient and economic manner that fits in with the overall project's goals.

But hey, it's not like the programmers can't take the time out to do all that when they're already working 12 hour days, right?

(And no, for the record, my goal isn't to devalue the work done by others; programmers, artists etc. have more than enough shit to do and unique challenges to face. But when you're dealing with huge and highly specialised teams within a tightly managed structure, dedicated design roles have more importance and are necessary to keep things moving smoothly... and being a good artist, programmer, writer, audio engineer, etc. doesn't mean you're any good at design and all of its challenges. If you are, well, then that's great, go make something awesome).

 

[commie]

I can't wait for tasteless Codex fags to install that EA piece of shit system and bioware piece of shit game

I'll install SKIDROW's exclusive system, just as I did install DETONATION's and Razor1911's for ME1 and 2. As for the POS game, well sometimes one feels like McDonald's trash. At least I don't pay for this so it's not like EA get's any extra funding.

 

[MetalCraze]

I've been working on a large mod project for the last six months and have several years' experience doing my own level design work across various game editors, which I've been using for close to a decade. I have no professional experience, but I hope to change that in the future.

Wow you've worked with in-game editors

What makes them work?

The cloned gameplay from GoW

How many enemies in each? What type? What is their intended relative strength to the player, as expressed in previous design iterations and documents? What weapons and techniques is the player equipped with? Have you built the level with these in mind, and if so, how?

Not a single ME level is built with anything in mind. Every single level in ME has the exactly same enemy hiding behind the exactly same box. The only difference is the model and that your weapon now deals 40 hp dmg to 200 hp enemy instead of 20hp dmg to 100 hp enemy like before.

How do these individual encounters as a whole relate to the larger game? Are there any puzzle or other elements in between? Have you considered adding multiple routes, multiple levels of elevation for greater variety and freedom? What sorts of things do you want to communicate visually during this section of gameplay, and what can we learn about the narrative and characters? If there is dialogue, how many lines, and where does it occur (or is it triggered by something else)? Are there any mission objectives, and how do they tie into the game at large? Do these scenarios favour long-range tactics, short-range tactics, or a blend? Will there be any special constraints put on the player during this section of the game, and if so, do these fit with the overall game's tone and play style? What are the movement speeds of the enemies encountered? How frequently do they attack? What tactics do they use? What weapons are they equipped with? Are there any bosses? If so, what makes them different?

Nothing makes them different bro. There are no elevations, no multiple paths. It's just the same fucking corridor where you do the exactly same thing. Point your crosshair over the enemy's head and press X from behind another box while hitscan does the rest.

You can pretend that a red robot with 200 hp hiding behind a blue box and a green robot with 100 hp hiding behind a yellow box is a completely varied complex sophisticated design all you want. With your vivid imagination it shouldn't be a hard thing to do.

 

[sea]

Yes, I do my own level design work, as well as writing, scripting, and am getting started in learning 3D modeling tools, and have several years of experience doing so. Am I able to give some sort of all-knowing insight into game design and development? No, and I don't purport to. What I am doing is breaking down your argument based on my experience in game development, and my own knowledge and research into the games industry. And, for the record, you didn't actually answer my question - if you're more qualified than me, then by all means, go ahead and refute me with your greater experience and understanding.

Again, you resort to "it copied Gears of War" and "all levels are identical" (which is false), without going into specifics, and without actually responding to my argument, which is "simple gameplay does not guarantee that the design or work behind it is also simple and inextensive." We're not talking web games here, the kind that can be built by a couple of people in a month, this is a massive multi-million-dollar production requiring the talents of hundreds of people working over the course of years, out of necessity for realising the game as intended - whether or not it's actually any good is a secondary question.

 

[MetalCraze]

Are you still arguing that putting boxes and enemies, all of which face player, into a linear corridor with the whole combat being about assault-rifling the fuck out of the mole behind the opposing box takes an effort?

They develop sequels to ME in less than a year, and both ME1 and ME2 are identical games. In fact ME2 has even less features. Open your eyes.

this is a massive multi-million-dollar production requiring the talents of hundreds of people working over the course of years, out of necessity for realising the game as intended - whether or not it's actually any good is a secondary question.

And some Thief isn't a massive multi-million-dollar production requiring the talents of hundreds of people - and somehow it's a much bigger, better, more varied game.
Some Dark Mod is done by modders and somehow levels in it aren't the same copy pasted corridor with fucking boxes, fucking boxes, fucking boxes everywhere.

Yes in ME they draw different textures for the same box so you may then write stuff like "saying that levels in ME are identical is false"

 

[shihonage]

I thoroughly agree with both sea and MetalCraze.

Designs used in prior work, take less work to implement, but their semi-unique combinations (and sheer quantity) will still require grueling menial work.

But yes, when you got a tested engine and game mechanics, the sequel DOES take far less time to be made, because the team is used to the editing and engine by now.

P.S.
On topic: I would care for ME3 if they made combat fun for once. It sucks to play a game with no dialogue, no C&C and no combat.

 

[kazgar]

I can't wait for tasteless Codex fags to install that EA piece of shit system and bioware piece of shit game

Robotic dog?

sign me up!

i assume its just the dog from DA reskinned?

 

[Lunac]

Ohhhh, penis measuring contest?! I wanna play too!

Completed a fully functional prototype by middle of 2002 in TrueVision3D. Due to the limitations of the engine and at the time unclear licensing terms (TV3D was being developed by part-time hobbyists and students), I switched gears and wrote a complete D3D/DX8 engine in less than two months from scratch, from February-to-March 2003.

Problem? Content. Motherfuking content! While UI design came easy to me (after nearly a decade of web/vector gfx development by then) things like high-poly meshes/models were something else. I was able to use TreeMagik to it's fullest extent for simples, but run into serious financial problems (this shit started as a hobby project!!!) and having to contract/outsource development of content to various Indian and then later Russian modelers/professionals. Even they are not cheap, hobby-project-wise. After sinking close to 15k USD, project was sort of abandoned in mid 2004.

Status? The game, an action RPG, fully-3D (basically SP MMO ala Oblivion, but before Oblivion) is pretty much done from the technical point. UI, music score and sound fx (done by a contractor, a part time classical composer and sound engineer hailing from UK), menus, intros, rudimentary random quest generator, weather system, day-night-cycles, etc, etc, all done, and something I spent the most time on: a really good (I thought a least) random item generation system, also completed.

Problem? Content! 20% done at best.

This shit ain't easy and it costs money.

However with the money they are throwing around (20-30 mil USD per Mass Effect title?) and not to toot my own horn, but I think I did a pretty good job for around 15k. With a say 20mil budget I'm certain I COULD do better than those pieces of shit at BioWare.




...
..
.

 

[Black]

Nobody gives a fuck about your "programming", go suck prosper's dick in a circlejerk.

 

[Jaesun]

Arguing with Skyway....

You are aware you are arguing with the guy that declares a cRPG is terrible because of a vehicles poor tire textures right? Just FYI.

 

[MetalCraze]

And the lack of a magazine in the rifle that the guard is holding.

 

[Metro]

Is there a romance option with the robot dog?

 

[thursdayschild]

I take it you can enlighten me on a game development as you've done a lot of it?

I've been working on a large mod project for the last six months and have several years' experience doing my own level design work across various game editors, which I've been using for close to a decade. I have no professional experience, but I hope to change that in the future.

A random console shooter level can be designed in paint in under 2 minutes. Then you just copy paste it 100 times and you have your 8 hours long shit shooter like Mass Effect. Just get some artists to draw different textures for the same box.

http://s015.radikal.ru/i332/1107/a7/72bd54d99657.jpg

2 minutes and the superawesome 10 minutes of gameplay are ready!

I'm now seriously considering getting a lead game designer job at Epic/Bioware/Activision/EA

Sarcasm aside, you're still oversimplifying. To take your example of a typical level from Mass Effect...

What makes them work? How many enemies in each? What type? What is their intended relative strength to the player, as expressed in previous design iterations and documents? What weapons and techniques is the player equipped with? Have you built the level with these in mind, and if so, how? How do these individual encounters as a whole relate to the larger game? Are there any puzzle or other elements in between? Have you considered adding multiple routes, multiple levels of elevation for greater variety and freedom? What sorts of things do you want to communicate visually during this section of gameplay, and what can we learn about the narrative and characters? If there is dialogue, how many lines, and where does it occur (or is it triggered by something else)? Are there any mission objectives, and how do they tie into the game at large? Do these scenarios favour long-range tactics, short-range tactics, or a blend? Will there be any special constraints put on the player during this section of the game, and if so, do these fit with the overall game's tone and play style? What are the movement speeds of the enemies encountered? How frequently do they attack? What tactics do they use? What weapons are they equipped with? Are there any bosses? If so, what makes them different?

Once you've answered those questions, please enumerate them in full and complete detail, per the specifications and format laid out by the rest of the design team, and express precise numerical values of all variables that are relevant to the situation. Please also provide an estimate as to how many new art assets would be required, how much unique scripting and programming is required, new sound effects, voice-over, etc., as well as an estimate as to the number of staff required and hours, weeks or days required, and set up a milestone timeline for implementing all of these in an efficient and economic manner that fits in with the overall project's goals.

But hey, it's not like the programmers can't take the time out to do all that when they're already working 12 hour days, right?

(And no, for the record, my goal isn't to devalue the work done by others; programmers, artists etc. have more than enough shit to do and unique challenges to face. But when you're dealing with huge and highly specialised teams within a tightly managed structure, dedicated design roles have more importance and are necessary to keep things moving smoothly... and being a good artist, programmer, writer, audio engineer, etc. doesn't mean you're any good at design and all of its challenges. If you are, well, then that's great, go make something awesome).

And those kind of details (and generally similarly pointless) are exactly what a project manager works on in real software development.

And you know how he resolves them?

Your eminence mr lead programmer man, if you don't mind, could you please review these designs and tell us what's wrong and how to fix it and explain why none of the figures add up?

Then those documents get ignored as the programmer does what is needed to actually work, as long as it can use the same art assets and fonts for the GUI.

That's how every big project I ever worked on went, and no matter how many millions (or hundreds of millions!) of dollars the budget was, there was ultimately just a couple guys who solved all the hard problems, coded everything critical, and fixed all the stupid mistakes the analysts and project manager types made.

No doubt for games that's how it works, too, with artist or level designer taking over the trivial details where it makes sense. And how else can it be with things like the palcement of every stupid encounter, especially in a game like ME where there was no thought put into level design or encounter placement at all.