Mature and rational discussion re: itemization in Pillars of Eternity

[Reapa]

Obsidian Lamp Figurine
Speed: average
Range: 7m
Effects: Summon 3 Shades

The quality of the game just peaked.

 

[potatojohn]

The big source of save file bloat is the chanter's rime and frost trail spell. All the traps it creates, despite being temporary, permanently become part of the save file, which makes for killer load times.

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/73...ing-mobileobjectssave-to-grow-out-of-control/

What kind of programming is that? To save traps you need a map id, x and y coordinates and the trap id. 4x 2 byte integers. You should be able to have millions of them without slowing down the game.

 

[Ninjerk]

The big source of save file bloat is the chanter's rime and frost trail spell. All the traps it creates, despite being temporary, permanently become part of the save file, which makes for killer load times.

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/73...ing-mobileobjectssave-to-grow-out-of-control/

What kind of programming is that? To save traps you need a map id, x and y coordinates and the trap id. 4x 2 byte integers. You should be able to have millions of them without slowing down the game.

Look at all the bugs they have. There are several bugs with stats not being removed from the character after an effect expires or an item is removed (see Eder deflection bug, Fire Godlike DR stacking I think, possibly others).

 

[ZagorTeNej]

The big source of save file bloat is the chanter's rime and frost trail spell. All the traps it creates, despite being temporary, permanently become part of the save file, which makes for killer load times.

http://forums.obsidian.net/topic/73...ing-mobileobjectssave-to-grow-out-of-control/

Fuck and I've been wondering why my load and quicksave times were exponentially getting longer.

 

[Shannow]

Yeah well, I assume there are other spells/effects that cause similar issues. I do not use that chant and still my saves/loads are taking longer and longer...

 

[Gord]

Some guy on the forums speculated that sold items contribute quite a bit as well, since PoE currently remembers every item you ever sold to merchants individually, even standard equipment like non-magic or low-quality armors, weapons, etc.

 

[Blaine]

I'm pretty sure I'm getting the Eder Deflection bug, since his Deflection is 110 or so. Even with Defender on, wearing plate, etc., I'm pretty sure it shouldn't be that high.

 

[vorvek]

I'm pretty sure I'm getting the Eder Deflection bug, since his Deflection is 110 or so. Even with Defender on, wearing plate, etc., I'm pretty sure it shouldn't be that high.

I have him with ~130 deflection, and Pallegina with ~110. Considering that characters without shields and/or the extra deflection feats have around 50-60 deflection, I'm not sure those numbers are buggy.

Also, armor doesn't affect deflection.

 

[Blaine]

Yeah, well, I selected Rime and Frost for Kana Rua. Guess I won't be using that anymore, either. Pretty sure I'll be dropping him for Pallegina anyway. Too bad there aren't any in-game respec options... guess that would be "unbalanced."

 

[Jarpie]

Yeah, well, I selected Rime and Frost for Kana Rua. Guess I won't be using that anymore, either. Pretty sure I'll be dropping him for Pallegina anyway. Too bad there aren't any in-game respec options... guess that would be "unbalanced."

Bester's iemod.

 

[Gord]

I'm pretty sure I'm getting the Eder Deflection bug, since his Deflection is 110 or so. Even with Defender on, wearing plate, etc., I'm pretty sure it shouldn't be that high.

Take of his equipment, turn off Defender and if it's ~25+3*(level-1)+(bonus from attributes) you should be fine, I think.

 

[Old Hans]

my favorite is finding the hidden purple loot, and its like a grappling hook or 200 copper

 

[Ellef]

I'm pretty sure I'm getting the Eder Deflection bug, since his Deflection is 110 or so. Even with Defender on, wearing plate, etc., I'm pretty sure it shouldn't be that high.

Take of his equipment, turn off Defender and if it's ~25+3*(level-1) you should be fine, I think.

So my chanter has 85 deflection naked. 25+24 for level + 16 attributes = 65..

Cautious attack is always on, switching it off does nothing.
Weapon and shield style seems to be on as well, even naked, putting on a shield just adds the shields deflection, nothing more. This accounts for 16, unless the weapon and shield nerf is only on the tooltip, and it's still +10 for now.

I certaintly fucking hope I haven't been getting a free 20 deflection. So many bugs related to save states and equipment/stat bonuses

 

[Bester]

I'm pretty sure I'm getting the Eder Deflection bug, since his Deflection is 110 or so. Even with Defender on, wearing plate, etc., I'm pretty sure it shouldn't be that high.

Take of his equipment, turn off Defender and if it's ~25+3*(level-1) you should be fine, I think.

So my chanter has 85 deflection naked. 25+24 for level + 16 attributes = 65..

Cautious attack is always on, switching it off does nothing.
Weapon and shield style seems to be on as well, even naked, putting on a shield just adds the shields deflection, nothing more. This accounts for 16, unless the weapon and shield nerf is only on the tooltip, and it's still +10 for now.

I certaintly fucking hope I haven't been getting a free 20 deflection. So many bugs related to save states and equipment/stat bonuses

Most likely you are. Made a fix for my Eder who was getting 40+ free deflection. See the modding thread.

 

[Johannes]

Yeah bloated is just nonsense, d100 over d20 means a more natural predictable curve in outcomes rather than wildly swingy battles.

No. Their distribution between the extremes is exactly the same, you just have more fidelity to alter the roll by smaller amounts if you want. To get a curve of the results, you need multiple dice.

 

[Blaine]

Yeah, LF_Incline done made a stupid.

More sides on a die means more granularity and/or precision. In some systems, probabilities may be expressed as percentages, but you can usually still just use a d10 or d20 and round up/down. Generally speaking, there's very little practical need in RPG systems for the granularity and precision of a d100—to support pass/fail character skill values ranging from 1-100, for example. The most needful use of d100 I've seen, if I remember my AD&D 2nd properly, are for densely-populated treasure tables or Deck of Many Things type deals wherein the range of each individual result varies and they're all something distinct.

That said, values from 1-10 often aren't quite granular enough for gaming purposes because of the need to subtract situational penalties or add bonuses. 1-20 seems to be about right.

 

[Perkel]

my favorite is finding the hidden purple loot, and its like a grappling hook or 200 copper

yeah that is one of good designs in PoE. Finding uniques from hidden stashed is awesome.

Found unique rapier with +1 engagement this way.

 

[e-mailio estevez]

It's really a shame because the itemization is one of my favorite things about the IE games, and something that a lot of the AAA console dragon age rabble could never appreciate.

I remember a sword in IWD that made you immune to Cloudkill. I mean, who would think of such a thing? I don't think its offensive power was anything to write home about, but it was such an interesting idea. I loved how so many of the IE items said fuck it to balance and just tried to do cool shit instead.

 

[Ninjerk]

It's really a shame because the itemization is one of my favorite things about the IE games, and something that a lot of the AAA console dragon age rabble could never appreciate.

I remember a sword in IWD that made you immune to Cloudkill. I mean, who would think of such a thing? I don't think its offensive power was anything to write home about, but it was such an interesting idea. I loved how so many of the IE items said fuck it to balance and just tried to do cool shit instead.

I just completed the bearcave quest on solo PotD (ignored it on first playthrough) and the reward for picking the "nice guy" option

Spoiler

another Ring of Deflection

 

[Dexter]

Stash.
Because is endless. Even with rest mechanic you can loot esentially everything and soon you have problem where you have too much shitty loot to look for your uniques. Honestly i want mod that will remove storing weapons and armor in stash. It should be only for crafting materials and game should have bags and pouches, scrolls storages etc like in BG2. This way you know where everything is.

Without endless stash you would need to choose which item to take instead of looting everything without looking.

The Stash is one of the single best design decisions they made with this game. One of the most tedious, excruciatingly and mind-numbingly boring and just stupid tasks in BG1+2, IWD1+2 and a lot of similar games is simply having to arrange and rearrange the inventory all the time due to Encumberment or shit simply not fitting anymore or having to go back to town to sell all the shit before being able to go on and similar. I'm very happy that games are finally finding different ways to this philosophy (for another example, for instance Torchlight or Dungeon Siege) that some games like Gothic had all along, because it's neither fun nor challenging and just boring and a pure waste of the players time having to juggle around items to fill them into small boxes just right. If any game has managed to make this task fun, I don't think I've stumbled upon it. If you want to "RP" wasting your time and not having fun just toggle "Don't Restrict Stash" off in the option so you can only access it at certain locations or just don't use it at all. Don't force other people to go through that mindnumbing shit.

It might make sense for some games, especially Online multiplayer ones, but it's just a waste of time in most SP RPGs.

Btw. people on the Steam forums apparently also noticed that itemization sucks: http://steamcommunity.com/app/291650/discussions/0/618458030655583939/

 

[felipepepe]

I rather have limited inventory space and juggle a few important items than having unlimited space and being forced to play fantasy Gamestop, taking 80 identical sets of used armor and weapon to shop to exchange for one new item.

One system forces you to make decisions, the other forces you to make busy work.

 

[Dexter]

I rather have limited inventory space and juggle a few important items than having unlimited space and being forced to play fantasy Gamestop, taking 80 identical sets of used armor and weapon to shop to exchange for one new item.

One system forces you to make decisions, the other forces you to make busy work.

A system that comes down to making the player waste his time without much of any tactical consideration or rewarding gameplay is a shit system. Most players are going to loot everything regardless of what it is in the early stages to get some seed money and if they are forced by penalties later on they are going to loot every "worthwhile" item anyway, wether they need it or not. Developers probably know that. Having to make your trip back to town or whereever the nearest store is isn't a "decision" or "choice" in that context, it's just introducing tedium and actual busy work beyond having to sell off a few extra items. I don't give a shit what you want to LARP your character as, go ahead, but don't punish the majority of players for it.

The rest of what you said about 80 identical sets of armor is just up to loot design. Wether armor is lootable or not, or how often it appears or if you could just replace all of it with 2000 coins in a treasure chest in the keep is up to the designer of that level. There are also games like The Witcher where things like armor or weapons are not lootable, just replaceable, but it is usually this way in party-based RPGs.

 

[felipepepe]

LARP has nothing to do with this. Limited inventory space forces you to make choices: do you carry extra weapons or an extra armor set? Will you stock those ingredients or buy then when needed? Will you carry that heavy but valuable plate mail just to sell it later? Baldur's Gate even had a penalty for encumbrance.

There's no such thing with an endless stash, you just grab everything. And since you can grab everything without any penalty, designers will make shitty loot systems designed around selling trash, just like PoE has.

 

[Dexter]

Every char already has 16 inventory slots. 16*6=96

This is the same as in Baldur's Gate/Icewind Dale by the way:

I don't have to imagine some theoretical scenario of WHAT WOULD HAPPEN, because I know what would. I never had to ask myself, WILL I POSSIBLY take these healing potions or wands or that pair of extra weapons with me or will I pick up that magical breastplate to sell, because there's enough room to do that when you go out. I'd just constantly switch items between chars to not make them Overencumbered and if I was at the bottom of a dungeon and didn't want to go back to town the stacking, sorting and exchanging of items started so I could go on for a bit longer. You know what choices these usually were? Can I put these arrows into the quiver slot (even though this char doesn't use a bow) and save some space? If I identify those potions maybe I can stack them on those others and save some space. Let's put these items and/or useless vendor trash rings and amulets that will give a bunch of gold into the quick item and ring slots to save some space. Let's put this weapon I don't really need into the secondary weapon slot to save some space etc. Crafting items, letters and similar would end up in chests in some keep or local headquarter anyway till they were required. This and the inevitable trips back to town usually cost several dozen minutes and map transitions and added just that, tedium. At least a lot of action games at that point had discovered the use of the "town portal".

Getting the Bags of Holding in those games was a fucking godsend.

Anyway, you just have to untick "Don't Restrict Stash" in the game options and you can go on LARPing, since you can only access it from base camp locations then. Or as I said just don't use it at all and use the chests in your stronghold instead. For me, it's one of the best fucking design decisions in the game as it spares me of the situations described above.

 

[Bester]

Can I put these arrows into the quiver slot (even though this char doesn't use a bow) and save some space? If I identify those potions maybe I can stack them on those others and save some space. Let's put these items and/or useless vendor trash rings that will give a bunch of gold into the quick item and ring slots to save some space. Let's put this weapon I don't really need into the secondary weapon slot to save some space etc. Crafting items, letters and similar would end up in chests in some keep or local headquarter anyway till they were required.

Well that's just bad loot design, according to your own logic.