From Software Lyric Suite's own Sekiro corner

[DJOGamer PT]

Guy has some cool moves
Though some of the strats he did, where more to make the video look cool, than they were to because of gameplay efficiency

Honestly, I am still mad at the fact that prosthetics and the good combat arts require spirit emblems
The one thing that would give figthing a decent amount of depth and they tie it to a limited, non-regenerable, consumable resource...
I guess implementing a meter mechanic would be too much trouble
Fuck it, I would take cooldown timers over this

But aren't you doing the same?

Not even close to the degree you were doing
And I was doing it to poke fun at the fundamental flaw at the core of the game's combat mechanics

You first need to understand the move set, and second you have to discover when, where and how you even get to do anything.

But that's the elementary
The minimum a game with figthing mechanics should have in order to work
Even the janky ass combat of Witcher 1 gets this (to an extent...)

I don't see how deflecting his attacks is as simple as just reacting thoughtlessly

Because since the game punishes playstyles distinct from the developers intentions, it ends up heavily encouraging memorization
Plus since the mechanics are simple and consistent, this rapidly turns into instinct
And please don't give me pedantic answers like "Well by definition memorization implies a mental process, so technically it can't be a thoughtless action."

The only time this game requires a literal "see, do" reflexive action is pelirious attacks, but those still require you to pay attention as low sweeps and thrust attacks can easily be confused with one another, especially if you are just going to instantly react when you the Kanji sign without thinking.

The game likes to throw an ocasional mix-up, sure
Imo they way From implemented here, ends up being a lazy method to "spice" fights
In bosses in particular they go the extra mile to fuck players for not figthing the way it's intended - as bosses have multiple animations to trick players into a "gatcha!" moment
To give an example:
> Owl Father
> his charged move is telegraphed in order to seem like he will perform an overhead attack
> indeed that is what he does, but only if the player doesn't move, dogding just at the last possible second
> if the player tries to side step, Owl Father will shift animations mid-way through, turning the overhead into a full horizontal sweep
> if the player back away, Owl Father will suddently jump towards the player's position

Ironic that a few years before, people complained incessantly about excessive tracking in DS2.
Those clips of enemies spinning like crazy to track the player's position become a point of ridicule, even though most those were genuine bugs.
So with subsequent patches From fixed those bugs, but also heavily nerfed all instances of tracking even in places it made sense (like the wizards in the Shrine of Amana, the knights in Heide's and Dragon Eyrie)
Yet this game does the same fucking thing, but better animated as to not appear as artificial, and lo and behold this is not only good it's actually the "best combat system From has designed"

To me your entire argument smells like Codex contrarianism, sorry. Skyrim is popular now therefore = shit.

This is what reading that comment, sound to me

I don't think From is bad game studio (yet), but they have unquestionably stagnated

I also don't think Sekiro is a bad game, I've said as much before
I didn't like it, but I recognized it has many good qualities - the aesthetics, music and atmosphere are top-notch, the level design is very good, the exploration is enjoyable, the story and worldbuilding is engaging (it was a good surprise that they went with a more "traditional" approach at storytelling, instead of the usual assortement of vague post-its), the campgain is well paced and has the right length

What I take issue with, is the fact that the combat, mechanically, is not good - its mediocre at best and the fact that in some elements it goes against the standards of figthing games, which are tried and tested, confuses me (sometimes it's almost like they were intentionally going against the conventional ideals)
And much like Skyrim (for RPG's) back in the day, everyone thinks THIS is what a 3rd person figthing game should strive to play like
But unlike Skyrim, you can find this being the majority opinion even in supposedly "elitist" forums

Really this has only conviced me that for people inexperienced with this type of gameplay, good = satisfying game feel, not intricately designed mechanics
And I admit that the game feel of Sekiro's combat is outstanding
So much so, that it was the reason why it took me nearly until the end of the game for me to thoroughly realise why there was something in the back of my head that kept bugging me about the combat
And it's funny that in your next post you mention "stillness over motion", as it was because of a similiar situation it finally dawned on me why I could never fully enjoy the combat
It was during the Isshin battle
In the first attempts I kept trying many different approaches
But the combat being designed the way it is, I kept getting filtered
So after a while I simply stopped, I stopped showing initiative and instead just limited myself to react
The fight became so much easier
After a couple attempts of this approach, I could reach the final phase without sweating
It was there when I realised: "This is it! This is what the game actually wants from me. To sit here, like a little good boy, patiently DOING NOTHING, waiting for a treat. Waiting for a specific queue, so I can follow it up with a specific counter."

Understanding the flow of the combat here really boils down to trial and error
And at the end of the day what Sekiro is trying to teach the player is that, despite apparences, you shouldn't approach it like a fighting game, instead this is a game of "Simon From says"
There is almost no variety playstyles, there is almost no room for improvisation, there is almost no opportunity for clever set-ups
In short, there is almost no possibility for the player to have fun with the combat system

i just like the process of studying, learning and discovery.

If that's the case, you should play NIOH instead...


Anyway
I think I am done discussing this game
My autism got the better of me and this post took way too long to write...

 

[Lyric Suite]

But that's the elementary

No it isn't (the fact you think you can even make a comparison with Witcher 1 shows how flat out wrong you are. Witcher is low IQ as shit compared to Sekiro). That's the hard part, because it invovles grasping something that is actually concrete or real. A lot of people can't actually do this which is why FromSoft games are universally perceived to be unreasonably difficult by many. Elden Ring pushed this so far that it literally caused an uproar with people arguing the game is bullshit and impossible to beat without cheese right in this forum.

Your conception of complexity isn't really that impressive in my view. If the prosthetic was free of use it wouldn't actually add anything to the sophistication of the game, at least not for me. It would make the game more flashy (a negative from my perspective) but less grounded. If somebody had shown me videos of Sekiro spazzing out with dozen of animu shit i probably wouldn't have bothered to play the game in the first place. I actually stood clear of Nioh because the footage i saw made it look too arcadish, with spazzy effects and shit like that.

Because since the game punishes playstyles distinct from the developers intentions, it ends up heavily encouraging memorization

I don't see how it wouldn't require heavy memorization one way or another even if you were offered a plethora of "styles" to chose from. The only way it wouldn't is if the game was so simplistic as to just require good reaction times and nothing else. In that case, sure, there would be no memorization since there wouldn't anything substantial there at all. The game would be reduded to just being a more varied version of the Kanji system in Sekiro. Just pure moment to moment reaction and nothing else.

Even in Sekiro, there were a few extra things you could do in response to a perilous attack. On a low sweep, there were a few combat arts you could have used instead of the regular jump stomp, and occationally, i tried to incorporate that in the game myself, like in my fight with O'Rin of the Water where i used that kick instead of a jump stomp, but to be honest, it really didn't feel that special to do. The "hard" part was to see the low sweep coming. What i did in response didn't really make much of a difference for me. If i had 20 different moves to chose from i would have seen it as nothing more than a useless complication.

That's why i said even if i had the same level of skill Ongbal has i probably couldn't do what he does just because i don't actually find it that interesting. Different psychologies i guess.

 

[Child of Malkav]

DJOGamer PT Your main complaint is that the combat system is not like the ones in other, dedicated fighting games. So? Maybe From designed their own custom system. One of the reasons I like their games is exactly because they're not 100% reflex based combat games.
As for your criticism of Sekiro, you're one of those people with their Simon says buzzword.
Sekiro is a game where you simply have to...get good.
Doesn't have a revolutionary combat system but it's extremely fun. Memehackzaki himself described this game as one that's focused on the clashing of swords.
Not every game needs to be their pseudo-RPG soulsborne series.
Anyway, what I wanted to say besides all of this is that while you can play passively and react you can also play aggressively and lock the bosses down to a few attacks, that are more manageable. The high level of mobility that you have also allows you to stay on top of the fight and maneuver around the boss.
My advice is to watch speed runners mastering the game. Fascinating stuff.
Another one of your complaints is that the prosthetic tools cost emblems, a non regenerable resource. And? Otherwise you would spam them. You also don't seem to consider them powerful. They are. That's why they are limited by emblems to such a degree. Imagine if you could just spam firecrackers. You're supposed to use them sparingly ir from time to time, not to rely on them. Plus you can get a knife that you can use 3 times to sacrifice half of your HP to get five emblems, for a total of 15, almost double of your total emblems. A nice incentive to get you to try out more prosthetics.
Why don't you mention the fact that you can combine various skills, combat arts and prosthetic tools to get different advantages during fights? Sure, they don't offer the vast number of options that you could find in a game like ER but it offers a different kind of variance.
The game also has an easy mode: it's called the umbrella, which can be upgraded to defend against fire and terror damage types. Not to mention that you already play the game on easy if you choose to keep Kuro's charm, which means that blocking, not deflecting, does not drain health. Different story if you play when you do return the charm and you gave to deflect otherwise you get chip damage that quickly accumulates over time.
Ultimately the final criticism probably comes down to lack of various playstyles. It's been one since the beginning although it's been clear that it's not that kind of game, from interviews. All that time and words used when you could have said just that.

 

[Silverfish]

I actually stood clear of Nioh because the footage i saw made it look too arcadish, with spazzy effects and shit like that.

For what it's worth, Nioh is pretty flexible and you can ignore the more outlandish elements for a Souls-like experience.

 

[H. P. Lovecraft's Cat]

Miyazaki is a bro but he is also a cog in a great machine that is filled with many cogs. There is no dev like them and there will never be another. They have sub-divisions of sub-divisions, each lead by a brilliant talented mastermind. Miyazaki is basically just the "Todd Howard" of the company at this point.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Anyway, who do i need to contact to get this thread moved to the playground?

In hindsight, i guess i should have posted it there from the get go.

 

[H. P. Lovecraft's Cat]

Anyway, who do i need to contact to get this thread moved to the playground?

That is a good idea. It is narcissistic behavior to make a thread entirely about one's self and including the game as an afterthought. I too would try and hide the thread as quickly as possible b4 people catch on if I were foolish enough to put myself in such a position.

 

[Lyric Suite]

I'm just trying to respect Codex norms. The title was actually inspired by the classical music forum i go to btw:

https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/board,6.0.html

Just came to me unconsciously.

Just so you know, i still plan to add my charmless fights as an addendum on the first page lmao but i won't dive into my second playthrough for a long time as i want the game to feel fresh again. Probably next year at the earliest.

 

[H. P. Lovecraft's Cat]

I'm just trying to respect Codex norms. The title was actually inspired by the classical music forum i go to btw:

https://www.good-music-guide.com/community/index.php/board,6.0.html

Just came to me unconsciously.

Just so you know, i still plan to add my charmless fights as an addendum on the first page lmao but i won't dive into my second playthrough for a long time as i want the game to feel fresh again. Probably next year at the earliest.

I was fucking with you. I always respected you. Seriously though are you gonna play Dragon's Dogma?

 

[Child of Malkav]

Just so you know, i still plan to add my charmless fights

Charmless + demonic bell + yashariku sugar
Different game.

 

[DJOGamer PT]

But that's the elementary

No it isn't (the fact you think you can even make a comparison with Witcher 1 shows how flat out wrong you are. Witcher is low IQ as shit compared to Sekiro). That's the hard part, because it invovles grasping something that is actually concrete or real.

You didn't get it
I wasn't talking about how being able to perceive enemy patterns is an elementary skill; I was saying that having clearly definied enemy movesets, with strengths and vulnerabilities, is a elementary part of the design of figthing gameplay systems
It's the bare mininum gameplay of this type needs to have in order to work
And I wasn't comparing it to Witcher 1, I was stating a fact - that even the Witcher 1, with its janky combat gameplay, understands this and achieves it (to an extent)
The reason I mentioned it, was to imply that I don't think Sekiro is doing anything remarkable by getting this design aspect right

Your conception of complexity isn't really that impressive in my view.

Oh c'mon man, if this were an rpg you'd be denuncing this lack of depth and player choice as "dumbing down"
But since it's a genre you have little afinity for and since it was developed by From, you not only give it a pass, you praise it

Also there's something amusing about the fact that in this matter, I am the one that's defending the "traditional" thought, while you're the one defending its rejection

It would make the game more flashy (a negative from my perspective) but less grounded.

This game is at times more flashy than the first Ninja Gaiden
And it's clear that the main priority for the combat was making the sword fights and feel cool
Nioh with it's heavy mechanical focus is tame in comparasion, even despite its ultimate moves

Because since the game punishes playstyles distinct from the developers intentions, it ends up heavily encouraging memorization

I don't see how it wouldn't require heavy memorization one way or another even if you were offered a plethora of "styles" to chose from.

In games with more developed combat systems, they give you multiple tools - sure in beggining you're figuring things out primarly by trial and error and memorization; but once you get confrotable with them, you leave that behind and start developing your own techniques
Sekiro's combat never fully reaches the latter, because the game is not designed in a way that enables it to go beyond the former

The only way it wouldn't is if the game was so simplistic as to just require good reaction times and nothing else.

It's not far, as it stands

If i had 20 different moves to chose from i would have seen it as nothing more than a useless complication.

"Yeah the Elder Scrolls games are needlessly complicated by all these stats and skills. Just downsize it to 3 properties: Warrior, Mage and Thief."

Now obviously there games that have a yellow page's worth of moves, where 90%+ of them are useless, outside of combocrafting
But Sekiro's combat leans far to heavily on the other extreme
If it were a meal, it would be a dry bone with scant stips of meat

Your main complaint is that the combat system is not like the ones in other, dedicated fighting games.

My main complaint, is that the game focuses too much combat, but unfortunately the combat lacks the necessary depth and in some instances is antithetical to the ideals of the genre

Sekiro is a game where you simply have to...get good.

Nigga this argument doesn't work on me
In this genre I've beaten challenges that would make the average Frombaby punch their screens in rage
I am over the notion of "greater difficulty = greater game"
Some games need high difficulties, some don't
What ultimately matters is the quality of design

And for me, the real difficulty of Sekiro was realising that the game had to be approached with a straightjacket
That I needed to stop trying to play it like Ninja Gaiden and instead just limit myself to doing exactely what the game wanted

Another one of your complaints is that the prosthetic tools cost emblems, a non regenerable resource. And? Otherwise you would spam them. You also don't seem to consider them powerful. They are. That's why they are limited by emblems to such a degree.

Because this is lazy design
Instead of more "natural" and fun ways to teach players to use them efficiently, they just slaped on a hard limit and called it a day
Why not a meter that fills and spills based on combat performances?
Why not more tangible weakness and vulnerabilities to their use?
Why not clever AI counters to their abuse?
Why not level design considerations to their use?
Why not cool risk/reward mechanic? Something like: the spirit emblems can only be collected if Wolf does a "quick" mystical breathing exercise; the exercise lasts 3 seconds and is a flag for enemies to attack you, maybe add even a small posture damage penalty; however if the player completes the exercise all spirit embles in a radius of 20 meters are collected and the exercise also restores posture or gives a boost to posture recovery for 5 seconds; also enemy corpeses hold not 1 spirit emblems, but at least 5, the catch is that over time that number decreases to 1 or even until it disapears
Shit why not campgain consequences to their use? Say it's magic and it corrupts the land, or attracts bad karma or some shit. Not only change the endings, but more importantly enemy placement and changes to level design.

Why don't you mention the fact that you can combine various skills, combat arts and prosthetic tools to get different advantages during fights?

Because alot of them aren't worth the effort
And even the good combos ultimately aren't as effective as just doing what the game wants you to

Ultimately the final criticism probably comes down to lack of various playstyles.

I'm not talking about playstyles like they exist in Dark Souls
Within the context of Sekiro's combat, there's little to no room for the player to engage with the mechanics in a manner unique to him

Anyway, who do i need to contact to get this thread moved to the playground?

Probably Infinitron
And to that I'll add, please split my posts to another thread, or Retardo Land

My autism got the better of me again
I need to get away before I piss away my entire weekend here

 

[Multidirectional]

Shit why not campgain consequences to their use? Say it's magic and it corrupts the land, or attracts bad karma or some shit. Not only change the endings, but more importantly enemy placement and changes to level design.

I agree with most of your post except this. It wasn't cool when Dishonored did this sort of shit and no game needs to ever do that again. Give players a bunch of toys and then punish for using them, not my favorite idea.

 

[Ravielsk]

Another one of your complaints is that the prosthetic tools cost emblems, a non regenerable resource. And? Otherwise you would spam them.

This is not even a real problem. For one the prosthetics are very spread out across the whole game(unless you prioritize them over everything else) and by end game when you have them alle/most there are no longer even that many enemies to use them on and even then they are hardly worth spamming. The damage they deal is fairly low even on NW, statuses inflicted are worth it only for a small handful of bloat enemies and the hats still need to be timed properly to block anything. Plus even if they were somehow spammable you can always have only one equipped at a time so sooner or later you would always run into a situation where you spammable axe is more of a detriment than a benefit.

Point being the game already does plenty to discourage spamming even without the emblems. The only thing really achieved by making them such a limited resource is that they go unused for 95% of the game and those 5% require a YT walkthrough to be used efficiently.

 

[Child of Malkav]

For one the prosthetics are very spread out across the whole game(unless you prioritize them over everything else) and by end game when you have them alle/most there are no longer even that many enemies to use them on

That's why there's NG+.

the hats still need to be timed properly to block anything

Umbrella is literally easy mode. It has a very generous window and completely negates the damage if you use it accordingly to the type of enemy damage you're facing.

Plus even if they were somehow spammable you can always have only one equipped at a time so sooner or later you would always run into a situation where you spammable axe is more of a detriment than a benefit.

Pause the game, switch to another tool. It sucks they didn't put a switch/wheel/something to avoid going through the menu.

 

[DJOGamer PT]

Shit why not campgain consequences to their use? Say it's magic and it corrupts the land, or attracts bad karma or some shit. Not only change the endings, but more importantly enemy placement and changes to level design.

I agree with most of your post except this. It wasn't cool when Dishonored did this sort of shit and no game needs to ever do that again. Give players a bunch of toys and then punish for using them, not my favorite idea.

Personally I like the idea of story being affected and modified by the manner of the player's playstyle, because it is an unique quality to this medium and I am of the opinion that those qualities are what games should champion and experiment with above all else


As for Dishonored
They were trying to make a connection between the gameplay and the story's main theme, which imo is Violence
Particularly the idea that whatever violence you propagate into the world, is continuously perpetuated and eventually returned to you tenfold

Imo the Chaos System failed on both fronts, because Arkane seems to have been afraid to fully commit to it:
> in gameplay - because they didn't went far enough in regards to changes in level and enemy design
> in story - because there are no significant consequences to your actions ; there are plenty of subtle details changed which is cool (though, some are so small you wont notice them, unless you're paying very close attention and actively replaying the game) ; but there no big changes to the main missions or even the side missions ; and if the audience can't tell what's changed and what's not, then the audience can't feel the responsibility for their actions

And perhaps the biggest fail (at least as far as the intention of the system is concerned) is in reflecting its theme - because the Chaos System only accounts for killing and has no nuance about
For example, killing a sadistic guard is perceived as equally wrong as killing an innocent civilian that is being bullied by said guard

It could said that, maybe the game is trying to convey that killing is always bad and should be avoided
But this assessment is confronted by the fact that you can kill indirectly and the system doesn't account for that - invert an eletric grid's programing and it doesn't matter if every guard in the level is pulverized, you're not culpable for it
There's also the fact the game never justifies this absolutist stance, even when some of the non-lethal ways to eliminate targets can be argued to be as evil as murder, fates worse than death (you can kidnap Lady Boyle and offer her to her "admirer", which will no doubt keep her for the remainder of her in his mansion's dungeon as his favourite rape doll ; or the fact you can cut off Pendleton's tongue and sell him to a slaver which ships him off to one of his slave mines) - though maybe here one could also make the counter-argument that despite their cruelty, these "eliminations" are a form of poetic justice

I also take issue with the fact that the Chaos System is the sole factor that determines the ending
As whatever moral message the writers were trying to convey fails to reach most of audience, because videogames endings are mostly seen as states of success (specially if said game has an actual scoring system)
So when most people chase the "good" ending, they are not pursue it as the "moral" good, but rather as the good "rating", the successful score, the S rank

Ultimately - either out of apprehension from Arkane, or lack time and resources - the Chaos System is simply not well designed...

 

[Silverfish]

Either out of apprehension from Arkane, or lack time and resources, the Chaos system is simply not well designed...

I'd argue that's not a failing of Dishonored's so much as a failing of the sequels to expand upon the concept. A rocky start is fine if it builds to something, but "well, guess we'll drop it, whatever" left the whole thing pretty limp wristed.

 

[H. P. Lovecraft's Cat]

I need to go back and finish this beast. Does the game allow multiple saves? I'd have to start over and go through the tutorials again. I'm like right at the end. Last I remember I killed Owl and was fighting the 2nd bull. I'd need to relearn the entire combat system.

 

[gabel]

[...] Does the game allow multiple saves? [...]

Yes.