From Software Lyric Suite's own Sekiro corner

[AdamReith]

Ho. Probably double the time? It's hard to say really. Keep in mind i was doing those kind of "no hit" stuff even before i started uploading videos on youtube, just for myself. It begun with Dark Souls and i started doing that because i wanted to "appreciate" the design of the bosses more fully, take the time to study and counter moves in order to appreciate the game more. You can brute force your way on a lot of bosses in all of the Dark Souls, but i always opted to go about it the hard way because i felt a sense of duty towards the designers and just enjoy doing it in general. So even if i wasn't uploading videos i still would likely spent a lot of time perfecting fights just for my own entertainment.

I consider FromSoft to be the action gaming equivalent to classical music to me. There's just something about their design that is very clever and compels me to try to figure it all out like i would with a Bach fugue or something. I don't want to "miss" out on any it by healing my way through a boss and not learning anything about the patterns, if that makes sense.

This means i don't really have a reference as i never rushed through a FromSoft game. I pretty much been playing them like this this whole time lol.

Interesting comparison to classical music, I kind of see it in that you have to work with their expectations in design or you will have a bad time.

Any other RPG developers you also feel that way about?

 

[Lyric Suite]

Not in terms of combat, all though i'm sure they must be out there.

I actually only kinda returned to action games with Dark Souls 1. I played many as a kid sure, all of the arcades and stuff, but once i got my first PC if we exclude stuff like Doom or Quake etc all my focus went on strategy, immersive sims and so on. Anything that had complex mechanics, difficult level design with multiple routes and so on.

Dark Souls 1 basically introduced me to a kind of visual-spatial complexity that i had no idea existed in action games.

 

[Lyric Suite]

So should this thread be moved to the playground? Not sure how this works.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Correct_Carlo lmao wtf did i say now?

 

[H. P. Lovecraft's Cat]

Lyric Suite you gonna be playing through the Dragon's Dogmas?

 

[Correct_Carlo]

Correct_Carlo lmao wtf did i say now?

You just have to be so pretentious about everything all the time, comparing Dark Souls to Bach and acting like they are the first games ever with "visual-spatial" complexity.

I love Dark Souls too (definitely a top 10 game ever for me), but.....come on. They don't even have the best melee in a souls-like.

You just got caught in their (admittedly very wonderful) skinnerbox design and you haven't played many action games for a while, so you are overly excited and proposing marriage on the second date.

 

[Correct_Carlo]

Lol, so i woke this morning and i found myself with nothing to do. I sort of feel empty this is over now.

Demon bell + no charm + yashariku sugar/spiritfall.
Achieve greatness.

That will come but not now. I gotta stop otherwise i'll burn out like i did with Elden Ring and never touch the game ever again. I also want my skill level to drop a bit so when i return i can milk the most enjoyment out of the bump in difficulty.

I also have another let's play in mind but that will come later as well. For now i gotta freshen up, play something completely different like a turn based RPG or something like that. Get my mind off anything FromSoft related so when i came back it will be fresh again.

Do Lies of P, it's actually good and feels like the only FromSoft game not designed by FromSoft.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Correct_Carlo lmao wtf did i say now?

You just have to be so pretentious about everything all the time, comparing Dark Souls to Bach and acting like they are the first games ever with "visual-spatial" complexity.

I was explaing my experience. I didn't say for instance that the Dark Souls were "the" first action games with "visual-spatial" complexity, i said they were they first i ever tried. I don't know if you actually read what i said but i clearly stated that i didn't use to be much of a fan of action or combat games and that most of my interests lied in strategy, sims etc and that Dark Souls was a "rediscovery" of the action genre for me. Prior to that all i knew about action games were my experience with ye oldie arcade stuff as a kid, most of which i put behind when i got my first PC.

Second, if it makes you feel better, i suppose you could argue Dark Souls is to other action games what progressive rock is to regular rock or metal, since you think a comparison with classical music is invariably "pretentious" (even if it was only an analogy).

Dark Souls for me is a kinda of "thinking man" action game. And because it's an action game, there is some parallel to complexity in music. It's not "cerebral" in a way Alpha Centauri is cerebral. Understanding combat in Dark Souls is more something you have to play by "ear", so to speak, or it's something you have to "see" for yourself.

As for there being "better" action games than Souls, no doubt there are likely many other sophisticated action games out there, but i still sort of take those kind of comments with a grain of salt. Codex contrarianism dictates the second something is popular, it means it must invariably be shit or popamole. There may be other great action games out there but that is not in itself a guarantee i'm going to like them. I liked Dark Souls because it was a sort of contemplative kinda of combat that seemed to involve the mind as much as the my reflexes. I'm still not a great fan of pure twich games. Even when i revisit some of my old favored arcade games i tend to get bored of them after a while. I have a friend who is heavily into arcade games and even got me into shmups for a few years. He is also involved in the Italian online beat'em up scene. It was an interesting experience, but i still feel it's not my cup of tea. I remember almost succeding in doing a 1CC in DoDonPachi but then i got burned out and couldn't play those games anymore.

 

[HeatEXTEND]

Do Lies of P, it's actually good and feels like the only FromSoft game not designed by FromSoft.

The bosses are fun and that's about it; feels like FS my ass.

 

[H. P. Lovecraft's Cat]

Yeah play that shit Bloodborne ripoff Lies of Piss instead of something that actually does it's own unique thing and doesn't try to ape off FromSoft like everybody else. EIGHT DAYS LEFT.

 

[Skinwalker]

Lies of Poo was decent but boring. I would rather play Lords of the Fallen as an interim FromSoftsexual fix.

 

[DJOGamer PT]

Dark Souls for me is a kinda of "thinking man" action game.

Lol
As far as Hack 'n' Slash's go, Dark Souls has very little mechanical complexity

I consider FromSoft to be the action gaming equivalent to classical music to me. There's just something about their design that is very clever and compels me to try to figure it all out like i would with a Bach fugue or something. I don't want to "miss" out on any it by healing my way through a boss and not learning anything about the patterns, if that makes sense.

Understanding combat in Dark Souls is more something you have to play by "ear", so to speak, or it's something you have to "see" for yourself.

You mean like a rythm game?

On a more serious note, as straigthfoward as DS combat is, it still has more complexity to than Sekiro mainly thanks to the versatility in equipment and character creation

Sekiro does really fit that description, because... it very much is a rythm game
Which ultimately makes it a sort "anti" hack 'n' slash

As for there being "better" action games than Souls, no doubt there are likely many other sophisticated action games out there, but i still sort of take those kind of comments with a grain of salt.
...
I'm still not a great fan of pure twich games. Even when i revisit some of my old favored arcade games i tend to get bored of them after a while. I have a friend who is heavily into arcade games and even got me into shmups for a few years.

You're comparing apples to oranges
I can tell you, not even the fastest figthing games come close to insane reactions and hand-eye coordenation that most shmups require

The Action genre is a broad spectrum of multiple sub-genres and gameplay experiences, each their own degree of "twitchiness"
For instance, Stealth games are just as much Action games as Shooters are

 

[Lyric Suite]

More then ever my analogy with complexity in music seems pretty apt but i keep forgetting i'm among people who don't understand music at all so it is not surprising it is falling on deaf ears (no pun intended).

 

[DJOGamer PT]

complexity

Sekiro's combat is simply "monkey see, monkey do"

 

[Silva]

Correct_Carlo lmao wtf did i say now?

You just have to be so pretentious about everything all the time, comparing Dark Souls to Bach and acting like they are the first games ever with "visual-spatial" complexity.

I was explaing my experience. I didn't say for instance that the Dark Souls were "the" first action games with "visual-spatial" complexity, i said they were they first i ever tried. I don't know if you actually read what i said but i clearly stated that i didn't used to be much of a fan of action or combat games and that most of my interests lied in strategy, sims etc and that Dark Souls was a "rediscovery" of the action genre for me. Prior to that all i knew about action games were my experience with ye oldie arcade stuff as a kid, most of which i put behind when i got my first PC.

Second, if it makes you feel better, i suppose you could argue Dark Souls is to other action games what progressive rock is to regular rock or metal, since you think a comparison with classical music is invariably "pretentious" (even if it was only an analogy).

Dark Souls for me is a kinda of "thinking man" action game. And because it's an action game, there is some parallel to complexity in music. It's not "cerebral" in a way Alpha Centauri is cerebral. Understanding combat in Dark Souls is more something you have to play by "ear", so to speak, or it's something you have to "see" for yourself.

As for there being "better" action games than Souls, no doubt there are likely many other sophisticated action games out there, but i still sort of take those kind of comments with a grain of salt. Codex contrarianism dictates the second something is popular, it means it must invariably be shit or popamole. There may be other great action games out there but that is not in itself a guarantee i'm going to like them. I liked Dark Souls because it was a sort of contemplative kinda of combat that seemed to involve the mind as much as the my reflexes. I'm still not a great fan of pure twich games. Even when i revisit some of my old favored arcade games i tend to get bored of them after a while. I have a friend who is heavily into arcade games and even got me into shmups for a few years. He is also involved in the Italian online beat'em up scene. It was an interesting experience, but i still feel it's not my cup of tea. I remember almost succeding in doing a 1CC in DoDonPachi but then i got burned out and couldn't play those games anymore.

This post is perfect in so many ways I would blow you if you still had erections instead of being a limp old faggot. Bravo.

 

[Silverfish]

Sekiro's combat is simply "monkey see, monkey do"

Yeah, From should have added subweapons or stealth to spice things up.

 

[Lyric Suite]

complexity

Sekiro's combat is simply "monkey see, monkey do"

The seeing part is the complex part. Not everybody actually has the same kind of spatial/visual perception to be able to see through patterns and understand what's actually going. If that wasn't the case nobody would be struggling with FromSoft games becuase in terms of actual reflexes they aren't really that hard.

I would say those games aren't sophisticated in terms of theoy, but they are in terms of execution. That's what made me think of Bach as an analogy because he was known to abhor theory and was a firm believer the only way to understand music was to actually listen to it and practice it. In that sense, Dark Souls is clever in a way that cannot really be quantified on paper. You just have to see it for yourself.

 

[Spike]

complexity

Sekiro's combat is simply "monkey see, monkey do"

The seeing part is the complex part. Not everybody actually has the same kind of spatial/visual perception to be able to see through patterns and understand what's actually going. If that wasn't the case nobody would be struggling with FromSoft games becuase in terms of actualy reflexes they aren't really that hard.

I would say those games aren't sophisticated in terms of theoy, but they are in terms of execution. That's what made me think of Bach as an analogy because he was known to abhor theory and was a firm believer the only way to understand music was to actually listen to it and practice it. In that sense, Dark Souls is clever in a way that cannot really be quantified on paper. You just have to see it for yourself.

Good take. Also very patrician of Bach. GTFO theoryfags.

 

[DJOGamer PT]

The seeing part is the complex part. Not everybody actually has the same kind of spatial/visual perception to be able to see through patterns and understand what's actually going.
...
I would say those games aren't sophisticated in terms of theoy, but they are in terms of execution.

Oh please that's basic, any 3rd person figthing game worth its salt has that
And Sekiro's problem is the fact that combat never goes beyond pattern recognition, and the player isn't allowed any deviation outside From's intentions

If that wasn't the case nobody would be struggling with FromSoft games becuase in terms of actual reflexes they aren't really that hard.

People struggle with FromSoft games because most have never played anything of similiar gameplay and as punishing
Not to mention, ever since Bloodborne From has been "inflating" enemy numbers (count, HP, damage, AoE, combo length, etc.)

 

[Lyric Suite]

The seeing part is the complex part. Not everybody actually has the same kind of spatial/visual perception to be able to see through patterns and understand what's actually going.
...
I would say those games aren't sophisticated in terms of theoy, but they are in terms of execution.

Oh please that's basic, any 3rd person figthing game worth its salt has that

By that argument, they are all based on pattern recognition too. Even stuff like schumps are basically just that.

ALL action games are basically monkey see, monkey do when it comes down to it. By necessity, because everything you see in a game is scripted. The last MAME game i played was the original Shinobi and getting through the last level basically just involved trial and error until i got all the patterns pat.

If you want to see that as a negative you'll have to condemn gaming as a whole. It's all patterns, and it's all scripted and coded before hand, because games aren't real. It's all artificial. Duh.

 

[DJOGamer PT]

If you want to be absurdely reductionist, sure it's all already programmed
But you know that isn't a sensible argument in this matter

Sekiro's combat is against player freedom
Every enemy has a specific "tune" for which the player can only "dance" in a specific way
Any attempt to try a different "play", and the player is immeadeatly and severely punished
There's no valid range of choices, each with their own benefits and drawbacks
Consequentially, there's barely any depth (which means barely any learning and replayability), there's minimal decision making from the player (meaning there's very little thinking to be had) and honestly there's no real sense of risk/reward (which is the secret ingredient of all great Action games)

This is very much the opposite of what a fighting game should strive to be

 

[Anonona]

ALL action games are basically monkey see, monkey do when it comes down to it. By necessity, because everything you see in a game is scripted. The last MAME game i played was the original Shinobi and getting through the last level basically just involved trial and error until i got all the patterns pat.

That is just part of it, there is always decision making, which allows for depth. Usually good combat system have a certain amount of quality decisions you can take during combat, each with different risk and advantages and requiring different degrees of mastery. Even the Souls games have a decent amount of decision making beyond how you build your character or what weapons you use. Stuff like the directions of your rolls, positioning, whether you roll through an attack, away from it or circle the enemy, use hyperarmor, parry or block and using ranged or melee attacks among other things. But most of these decisions are present by default in many other good action games. From Software ARPGs are rather basic in the combat system department. Weapons have very small movesets and the properties of said movesets are usually pretty standard, and you are rather limited in the amount of decisions you can take.

What From's ARPG's combat systems have is both that they are (relatively) simple to learn yet challenging and have a very tight design with great "feeling". Everything works as it should, the amount of decisions is wide enough for it to have a satisfying progression but simple enough than even people that don't play many action games can enjoy without beeing overwhelmed, and yet feel like they are improving and learning. And the animations, sound and visual effects are on point, making the simple act of attacking already "fun", what I refeers as the "feel" of combat, which is more important than people give credit for in action games. They are not the best combat systems, but they are at least decent, and at most good, and they serve their role perfecty on the whole package that are Souls games (exploration, character progression etc.)

With this statement

I liked Dark Souls because it was a sort of contemplative kinda of combat that seemed to involve the mind as much as the my reflexes. I'm still not a great fan of pure twich games.

My guess is that what you like about the combat system is the amount of commitment each action has. You cannot cancel actions into each other as freely as other actions game, so while you make fewer choices in Souls games, usually those choices have very heavy consequences. You cannot cancel an attack once you start compared to other faster action games, so it does make you consider before going into the offensive. It can be compared on how in old Castlevania games, your attacks were slower than other games, so you had to be more concious each attack you made.

Funny enough, Sekiro is more reminiscent of classic games like the aforementioned Shinobi in that combat is simple, more so than the Souls games, and attacks are fast and you can cancel them, yet it remains satisfying. Having said this, I think is a bit unfair to reduce Sekiro's combat to a simple "monkey see, monkey do". Is true that it is more limited than other games due to how combat is designed, and the way it presents itself doesn't encourage players to experiment, but it still can offer some freedom if you are willing to do so. From skills to ninja tools or even if you choose to deal with attacks in a way different that what is expected.

Here is an example of one very good player showcasing some interesting strategies on different bosses. Spoilers of course, as it shows all bosses of the game.

 

[Lyric Suite]

If you want to be absurdely reductionist

But aren't you doing the same?

You say the combat is monkey see, monkey does, but that misses the fact neither the seeing nor the doing part are as straightforward as you are implying. You first need to understand the move set, and second you have to discover when, where and how you even get to do anything. Sometimes understanding movesets gets really esoteric too. Like Headless, which took me four fights (with however many tries each time, quite a few) before i was able to master him 100%. I don't see how deflecting his attacks is as simple as just reacting thoughtlessly. You have to know the timing, you have to know where you can even connect with a deflection etc.

The only time this game requires a literal "see, do" reflexive action is pelirious attacks, but those still require you to pay attention as low sweeps and thrust attacks can easily be confused with one another, especially if you are just going to instantly react when you the Kanji sign without thinking.

To me your entire argument smells like Codex contrarianism, sorry. FromSoft is popular now therefore = shit.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Here is an example of one very good player showcasing some interesting strategies on different bosses. Spoilers of course, as it shows all bosses of the game.

It's interesting because i actually don't like to do what Ongbal does. It seems i'm not really that interested in being creative with my own actions i just like the process of studying, learning and discovery. Because of that, i tend to gravitate towards a minimalistic playstyle and if i can help it i usually like to avoid using spells or abilities. I actually had to force myself to use combat arts in this playthrough and when i do use abilities i often tend to stick with the first i pick and again i have to force myself to change things up.

I guess this is probably related to my conservative inclination. I just prefer form over chaos, stability over change, stillness over motion and so forth. I dislike randomness and i like the feel of bringing everything into some kind of order, which is likely the reason i disliked the open world in Elden Ring so much over the level design of past Souls games. And i get this also explains my obsession in wanting to "perfect" those games. It's not enough for me to beat the odds i HAVE to get it right and i had to fight with this impulse while i was making this playthrough since i didn't want to prolong things more than necessary, so i determined i wasn't going to spend more than a set amount of time to do a boss and if the fight came out messy so be it. Even now looking back it still bugs me though, but i was able to fight my autism by telling myself i'll get it right on my second playthrough lol.

BTW, i think you are right that i like how FromSoft games make you commit into an attack since this ties to the general minimalistic tendency i just explained. One of my favored type of deflections during my game were those heavy attacks that force Sekiro to plan his sword to the ground. It just felt so satisfying to block those. The heaviness of Sekiro in general was very congenial for me, with those loud and hard clangs etc.

 

[Lyric Suite]

BTW, i heard Miyazaki was an accountant before he started making games. Might explian the affinity i have with his shit lmao.