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Lord Azlan is angry about Alpha Protocol

Shevek

Arcane
Joined
Sep 20, 2003
Messages
1,570
Looking at these now - taken my eye. Considering the list above of what I liked and disliked - what do you guys think I should try next?

Elminage Gothic
Fallout Tactics: Brotherhood of Steel
Planescape: Torment (1999)
Fallout 2 (1998)
Deus Ex (2000)
Neverwinter Nights 2
Papersorcerer
Jagged Alliance 2
Darklands
Mount & Blade: Warband
Recommendations (In order of worst to best combat):
1. Torment - Treat this as adventure game with a combat tacked on; amazing story, shit combat
2. Deus Ex - Install New Vision texture pack; realize this is more of a shooter with rpg elements but its very very well done; play stealth for added fun
3. Play NWN2: Mask of the Betrayer and skip the base game. Install Kaedrin's PRC Pack
4. Fallout 2
5. Jagged Alliance 2; this is not a rpg so much as a tactical combat game. But its one of the best tactical combat games I have played.

Top recommendation: Mask of the Betrayer (just because I loved the story)
 
Unwanted

CyberP

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Messages
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Is there any way I can get a refund? Is there a form I need to complete?

Alpha Protocol is 29th in the All Time list of good RPG - ahead of Daggerfall, Ultima IV, Arx Fatalis, Risen and even Deus Ex: Human Revolution.

Implying HR qualifies as a cRPG and should be held to high standard. But yeah, Alpha Brotocol is garbage in almost every respect except C&C and some aspects of the dialogue system.

2. Deus Ex - Install New Vision texture pack and GMDX

Fixed.
 

thesoup

Arcane
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Messages
7,599
Deus Ex. But remember, the combat isn't shit, you just gotta git gud. New vision should be a mandatory mod. Use hdtp and gmdx on your second playthrough.
 
Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
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That top 70 list is a great tool for finding RPGs to play, but it, like everything else, has its problems. First of all, RPGs are a really broad genre that has fans with completely different tastes and the vast majority of RPGs ever made aren't all around good. They might be good in one area and bad in another, and depending on your tastes, you might find it a great game or a complete piece of shit. Some people are more into combat, others into the writing, others into exploration, some require a C&C approach, others want a virtual world, and many want some combination of all those. That's why just being on that list doesn't mean that it's going to be a game that you like. Reading the user reviews that come with that list is helpful in that regard, as they usually describe the game somewhat, with its strengths and weaknesses, so you can get a better idea of what you would be getting into. I wonder also if it would be too much work to, at some point in the future, do several such lists broken down by cRPG aspects: greatest exploration RPGs, greatest combat RPGs, greatest story RPGs, greatest C&C RPGs, and so on. That would be very interesting to see as well, but might make felipepe have to quit his dayjob. :)

Another thing about that list is of course how people's nostalgia and personal bias factor into it. At least some of the older games listed can't possibly belong on that list in terms of being played today, but they were very important historically and people have a soft spot for them. We might all hate Oblivion here but of course Oblivion is more fun to play than say Wizardry 1, it's just for its time Wizardry was a special game, and Oblivion, on the other hand, was really shitty when compared to what it could've been with 2006 technology and investment.
 

naossano

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Jagged Alliance 2 isn't an RPG and doesn't pretend to be an RPG, but it has way more RPG features than many games that pretend to be RPG. (and RPG features that i would like to see in actual RPG)
 

Lord Azlan

Arcane
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That top 70 list is a great tool for finding RPGs to play, but it, like everything else, has its problems. First of all, RPGs are a really broad genre that has fans with completely different tastes and the vast majority of RPGs ever made aren't all around good. They might be good in one area and bad in another, and depending on your tastes, you might find it a great game or a complete piece of shit. Some people are more into combat, others into the writing, others into exploration, some require a C&C approach, others want a virtual world, and many want some combination of all those. That's why just being on that list doesn't mean that it's going to be a game that you like. Reading the user reviews that come with that list is helpful in that regard, as they usually describe the game somewhat, with its strengths and weaknesses, so you can get a better idea of what you would be getting into. I wonder also if it would be too much work to, at some point in the future, do several such lists broken down by cRPG aspects: greatest exploration RPGs, greatest combat RPGs, greatest story RPGs, greatest C&C RPGs, and so on. That would be very interesting to see as well, but might make felipepe have to quit his dayjob. :)

Another thing about that list is of course how people's nostalgia and personal bias factor into it. At least some of the older games listed can't possibly belong on that list in terms of being played today, but they were very important historically and people have a soft spot for them. We might all hate Oblivion here but of course Oblivion is more fun to play than say Wizardry 1, it's just for its time Wizardry was a special game, and Oblivion, on the other hand, was really shitty when compared to what it could've been with 2006 technology and investment.

Thanks for your post - it is very helpful as have been quite a few of the others.

AP was the first game I came across on the list that was of a supreme naffiness that I felt it was a betrayal, an insult. Saying that, I do accept that not everyone likes Green Tea.

For example, I learned a while ago that Baldur's Gate, Knights of the Republic, even Dragon Age are not compatible with me. I am happy for those games to exist on all time RPG list though. The nausea that arises in me when I think about the Witcher only subsides when I think of the potential of that particular universe or some other aspects I thought were done well. I suppose some part of me secretly hopes one day I could return to BG, the Star Wars universe or Dragon Age and complete those games.

I found Risen on the Codex list and read loads of reviews and then bought it on Steam. Not sure how RPG it is - but I absolutely loved it. A great Codex recommendation. A great game.

AP, I dunno, shrug, even the interesting things like buying intel, the ability to reply to emails, the interesting conversation options and reputation - just can't save it from the broken combat. Many of the games I mentioned above are apparently story driven but have decent combat. The Witcher combat, oh God, it wasn't broken though.

Speaking of Felipepe, I wonder if AP made an entry into his History of RPG book - that would be interesting.

Despite my reservations about Planescape I am going to try it for a thrid time. Codex was right about Fallout 1 and I was wrong - so I could be wrong again.

I spent a couple of hours fumbling around, finding my Planescape CDs, converting them to images, mounting them and installed the game!

If it's not better than AP expect another post "Lord Azlan Tormented"
 

Karwelas

Dwarf Taffer
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Codex Year of the Donut I helped put crap in Monomyth
Thanks for your post - it is very helpful as have been quite a few of the others.

AP was the first game I came across on the list that was of a supreme naffiness that I felt it was a betrayal, an insult. Saying that, I do accept that not everyone likes Green Tea.

For example, I learned a while ago that Baldur's Gate, Knights of the Republic, even Dragon Age are not compatible with me. I am happy for those games to exist on all time RPG list though. The nausea that arises in me when I think about the Witcher only subsides when I think of the potential of that particular universe or some other aspects I thought were done well. I suppose some part of me secretly hopes one day I could return to BG, the Star Wars universe or Dragon Age and complete those games.

I found Risen on the Codex list and read loads of reviews and then bought it on Steam. Not sure how RPG it is - but I absolutely loved it. A great Codex recommendation. A great game.

AP, I dunno, shrug, even the interesting things like buying intel, the ability to reply to emails, the interesting conversation options and reputation - just can't save it from the broken combat. Many of the games I mentioned above are apparently story driven but have decent combat. The Witcher combat, oh God, it wasn't broken though.

Speaking of Felipepe, I wonder if AP made an entry into his History of RPG book - that would be interesting.

Despite my reservations about Planescape I am going to try it for a thrid time. Codex was right about Fallout 1 and I was wrong - so I could be wrong again.

I spent a couple of hours fumbling around, finding my Planescape CDs, converting them to images, mounting them and installed the game!

If it's not better than AP expect another post "Lord Azlan Tormented"

First - I wanted to say sorry. I was too... well. Butthurt in my post before.

Well, many of us have different tastes and sometimes we forget bout it. KOTOR isn't that bad, you should try KOTOR 2 on player extended mod. Also, if you like Risen, you will love both first Gothic's. (1 and 2 with NofR). Planescape is really worth trying again, NWN is worth for character building and many player modules.

I also see you prefer good combat mechanics, so many games loved on 'Dex may be just bad for you.

By the way. Only Earl Grey. Captain Picard teach me that.
 
Unwanted

a Goat

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Planescape sure has ... tons of C&C
Since when?
:nocountryforshitposters:
I don't know maybe I'm stupid but:
Paying for answers of Pillar of Skulls by throwing Morte into it or having to deal with demons and shit smells like C&C unless you only see C&C when the cutscene says so or you see karma meter going up or down.

Another thing about that list is of course how people's nostalgia and personal bias factor into it. At least some of the older games listed can't possibly belong on that list in terms of being played today, but they were very important historically and people have a soft spot for them. We might all hate Oblivion here but of course Oblivion is more fun to play than say Wizardry 1, it's just for its time Wizardry was a special game, and Oblivion, on the other hand, was really shitty when compared to what it could've been with 2006 technology and investment.
The biggest problem about very, very old games is interface and controls.

Interface is made with certain philosophy that's adapted to hardware's later on. In Wizardry, on let's say C64, the interface had to work on the system which supported resolutions up to 320x200 which reduced the amount of workspace you've had to deal with, it didn't have mouse and the devs weren't experienced with making controls for games back then. Check early roguelikes with NSWE used for directions for reference.
 

Crooked Bee

(no longer) a wide-wandering bee
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Codex 2013 Codex 2014 PC RPG Website of the Year, 2015 Codex 2016 - The Age of Grimoire MCA Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire
of course Oblivion is more fun to play than say Wizardry 1, it's just for its time Wizardry was a special game, and Oblivion, on the other hand, was really shitty when compared to what it could've been with 2006 technology and investment.

I always find it amusing when people bring up Wizardry 1 as "that unplayable old game," when in fact it's actually one of the most playable 80s games, gameplay-, balance- and interface-wise (unless you mind wireframe dungeons that much, in which case you can play the SNES version). Hence also the proliferation of Wizardry clones in Japan, which have pretty much exactly the same gameplay as Wizardry 1, tho' sometimes with a few additional bells and whistles.

It's also infinitely more fun to play than Oblivion.
 

naossano

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The problem of controls could be fixed by some re-binding tools in many cases.
Interface wise, i think we are going backward not progressing...
 

Jools

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Is there any way I can get a refund? Is there a form I need to complete?

Alpha Protocol is 29th in the All Time list of good RPG - ahead of Daggerfall, Ultima IV, Arx Fatalis, Risen and even Deus Ex: Human Revolution.

So, half of you guys regularly criticise top RPG lists from others - most recently PC Gamer. Ha ha.

The other half have at least 100 hours played on Skyrim.

To put it bluntly, that's a lot of edginess for a newfag. That said, I can't really fathom how the fuck AP made it up there. Not to mention Dark Souls, ranking 14, no shit! And DA:O, Witcher2. My point: it's just a list, based on votes. Voting got the UK David Cameron. Voting got KWA Obama Bin Laden. Democracy sucks, man. Look what it's done to the Aryan part of the world. Islam has all the answers.
 
Unwanted

a Goat

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The problem of controls could be fixed by some re-binding tools in many cases.
Interface wise, i think we are going backward not progressing...
Nope.
We may go backwards from 90's but from 80's?
It's still better even if it's only because we have bigger resolution screens nowadays.
 
Joined
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Messages
7,269
Jagged Alliance 2 isn't an RPG and doesn't pretend to be an RPG, but it has way more RPG features than many games that pretend to be RPG. (and RPG features that i would like to see in actual RPG)
Fair enough. In fact, probably absolutely correct. You'd just think a place like the Codex wouldn't swallow developer semen every time they put a label on a game calling it an RPG when it clearly isn't.

Fucking seriously, how stupid are you fucks? Mass Effect? It's a fucking Gears of War clone. Alpha Protocol? Same. These games are just per se NOT RPGs. We don't even have to get in the weeds of "what is an RPG" to come up with that conclusion. They're as much an RPG as fucking Battlefield or Call of Duty.

I hate this place sometimes.
 

NotAGolfer

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Divinity: Original Sin 2
Planescape sure has ... tons of C&C
Since when?
:nocountryforshitposters:
I don't know maybe I'm stupid but:
Paying for answers of Pillar of Skulls by throwing Morte into it or having to deal with demons and shit smells like C&C unless you only see C&C when the cutscene says so or you see karma meter going up or down.
Sure, but these were minor decisions not changing the narrative in any meaningful way. There are some C&C heavy parts in PS:T, like the Dead Nations for example but most of the time it's more about unlocking additional secrets and XP by talking to everyone and their grandma than about real C&C (TM).
 

Hobo Elf

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AP combat was fine if you weren't a moran who tried to play it like Gears of War and took SMGs or whatever dumbshit weapons there were. Gotta play it cool, go with pistols and stealth.
 
Joined
Aug 6, 2008
Messages
7,269
AP combat was fine if you weren't a moran who tried to play it like Gears of War and took SMGs or whatever dumbshit weapons there were. Gotta play it cool, go with pistols and stealth.
This should be a dumbfuckable offense. AP's combat gave me AIDS.

Seriously, this:

I don't understand how Final Fantasy 8 isn't in the top 10.

Is a less stupid post than yours.
 

Hobo Elf

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AP combat was fine if you weren't a moran who tried to play it like Gears of War and took SMGs or whatever dumbshit weapons there were. Gotta play it cool, go with pistols and stealth.
This should be a dumbfuckable offense. AP's combat gave me AIDS.

Seriously, this:

I don't understand how Final Fantasy 8 isn't in the top 10.

Is a less stupid post than yours.

It's not my problem that you are too stupid to understand what I actually implied and meant with my post.
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
Joined
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Messages
35,887
Fair enough. In fact, probably absolutely correct. You'd just think a place like the Codex wouldn't swallow developer semen every time they put a label on a game calling it an RPG when it clearly isn't.

Fucking seriously, how stupid are you fucks? Mass Effect? It's a fucking Gears of War clone. Alpha Protocol? Same. These games are just per se NOT RPGs. We don't even have to get in the weeds of "what is an RPG" to come up with that conclusion. They're as much an RPG as fucking Battlefield or Call of Duty.

I hate this place sometimes.

Role playing is when you make choices through your character that change the outcomes of things in the world, which AP and ME both do (and Battlefield and CoD do not). The style of conflict resolution is irrelevant.
 

Telengard

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Messages
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The end of every place
Jagged Alliance 2 isn't an RPG and doesn't pretend to be an RPG, but it has way more RPG features than many games that pretend to be RPG. (and RPG features that i would like to see in actual RPG)
Actually...
TuxyYyY.jpg




If you look closely...



AMwB8Df.jpg


It does pretend to be.
 
Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
5,217
Thanks for your post - it is very helpful as have been quite a few of the others.

AP was the first game I came across on the list that was of a supreme naffiness that I felt it was a betrayal, an insult. Saying that, I do accept that not everyone likes Green Tea.

For example, I learned a while ago that Baldur's Gate, Knights of the Republic, even Dragon Age are not compatible with me. I am happy for those games to exist on all time RPG list though. The nausea that arises in me when I think about the Witcher only subsides when I think of the potential of that particular universe or some other aspects I thought were done well. I suppose some part of me secretly hopes one day I could return to BG, the Star Wars universe or Dragon Age and complete those games.

I found Risen on the Codex list and read loads of reviews and then bought it on Steam. Not sure how RPG it is - but I absolutely loved it. A great Codex recommendation. A great game.

AP, I dunno, shrug, even the interesting things like buying intel, the ability to reply to emails, the interesting conversation options and reputation - just can't save it from the broken combat. Many of the games I mentioned above are apparently story driven but have decent combat. The Witcher combat, oh God, it wasn't broken though.

Speaking of Felipepe, I wonder if AP made an entry into his History of RPG book - that would be interesting.

Despite my reservations about Planescape I am going to try it for a thrid time. Codex was right about Fallout 1 and I was wrong - so I could be wrong again.

I spent a couple of hours fumbling around, finding my Planescape CDs, converting them to images, mounting them and installed the game!

If it's not better than AP expect another post "Lord Azlan Tormented"

If you loved Risen, there are only 2 games you should be playing right now, Gothic and Gothic 2 (with expansion). They are like better versions of Risen, although with older graphics, but basically best open world games ever made in many people's opinion.

I always find it amusing when people bring up Wizardry 1 as "that unplayable old game," when in fact it's actually one of the most playable 80s games, gameplay-, balance- and interface-wise (unless you mind wireframe dungeons that much, in which case you can play the SNES version). Hence also the proliferation of Wizardry clones in Japan, which have pretty much exactly the same gameplay as Wizardry 1, tho' sometimes with a few additional bells and whistles.

It's also infinitely more fun to play than Oblivion.

This being the Codex, I had a hunch somebody was going to say that. You voted for it, didn't you?

:excellent:
 

naossano

Cipher
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Messages
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Telengard >
Weird things. I always assumed it was a crossroad between Strategy games (with all the management) and Tactical games (with the combat system) with some RPG bits thrown into the mix, not a strategy role-playing game with zero mention of tactical games.
 

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