Let's twist MCA's words until they don't sound retarded

[RainSong]

I think PST is a tad overrated espicially the writing which is very good; but not 'god's gift to writing' that some want to fanwank.

Could you please give me the name of a pc game that has better writing? I'd love to play it.

 

[Wyrmlord]

I think PST is a tad overrated espicially the writing which is very good; but not 'god's gift to writing' that some want to fanwank.

Could you please give me the name of a pc game that has better writing? I'd love to play it.

BETRAYAL AT KRONDOR

 

[Depressinator]

God, you guys can be retarded.

The combat WAS horribly broken in PS:T. Everything else was nigh perfect, aside from quibbles. Going through and making the combat as good as the rest of it would propel it into the status of being one of the best games ever made in any genre, not just one of the best RPGs.

And is there anything wrong with pacing the combat and the story more evenly? He didn't say "MOAR COMBAT!", he said he wanted to have more at the beginning ie to pace it better. Which again makes perfect sense, because its combat is pretty uneven. You can go for a long way with little or no combat if you don't explore much and then you get to certain areas and it's painfully difficult if you are low level. If the combat were paced a little better then the people who whine "Curst was too hard!" in every single PS:T thread wouldn't have anything to complain about.


I haven't played HL2 or Bioshock, but saying something has a good method of exposition and storytelling is not the same as saying it's a good game or a good RPG - or an RPG at all.

As for the rest, he's a good writer, I guess I should say a great writer. Having great writers doesn't make something great, though. Bethesda has a couple of writers that are more or less on par with MCA and every game after daggerfall has sucked giant monkey balls in my estimation.

If you could just take a great writer and a great programmer and a couple great artists, and shake them all together, it doesn't necessarily make for a good game. I don't really expect to ever play a good RPG again from the mainstream publishers, because they simply have no inclination to make the kind of game that I want to play.

The fact games like Mass Effect and Alpha Protocol even get coverage here at all, let alone that former RPG makers are making this stuff and claiming it's an RPG, shows that making an actual RPG of any kind aside from 'a fps with a story' or an action rpg is simply not going to happen. Sadly, NWN2 is as close as we've had in years or are likely to get in years, and it was solidly OK but hardly anything to gush about - I didn't even bother finishing it, though I still think I got my money's worth.

 

[themadhatter114]

I thought the companions in NWN2 were pretty well done, aside from Shandra who is incredibly annoying a lot of the time. Bishop and Ammon Jerro and a few others were especially well done, I think. I certainly wouldn't say that the companions themselves are a detriment to the game.

And saying that he shouldn't get much credit for MotB because he only did 2 companions is a little ridiculous, when they were a huge part of what made MotB great. I really don't think MotB would be near the game it is without Kaelyn and Gann or 2 equally compelling characters to replace them. They were certainly the 2 most interesting companions in my opinion.

 

[Zhirzzh]

Sadly, NWN2 is as close as we've had in years or are likely to get in years, and it was solidly OK but hardly anything to gush about - I didn't even bother finishing it, though I still think I got my money's worth.

MotB?

 

[ghostdog]

When someone finally makes the game he always wanted to make and invests a huge amount of energy and imagination to it, then it's possible that afterwards he'll be drained. Look at Warren Spector after Deus Ex and look at Avellone after PS:T. Well ok, Avellone has made a couple of decent games afterwards, but their best aspects were rehearsed PS:T ideas and I don't think he'll ever make something as good as PS:T again.

Also, it's sad that mca hasn't yet realized that it's not the amount of combat that sucks in his games , but the combat mechanics and the balance. And actually I prefer PS:T combat over the one in KOTORII or NWN2.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

Like George Lucas before him, MCA has gone stupid in his old age.

 

[Texas Red]

When someone finally makes the game he always wanted to make and invests a huge amount of energy and imagination to it, then it's possible that afterwards he'll be drained. Look at Warren Spector after Deus Ex and look at Avellone after PS:T. Well ok, Avellone has made a couple of decent games afterwards, but their best aspects were rehearsed PS:T ideas and I don't think he'll never make something as good as PS:T again.

Also, it's sad that mca hasn't yet realized that it's not the amount of combat that sucks in his games , but the combat mechanics the and the balance. And actually I prefer PS:T combat over the one in KOTORII or NWN2.

I played through KotOR 2 with the restoration pack and I must admit that it has its own superb story. It is completely different from PS:T, the only similarity being that you lost *some* of your memories.

NWN 2 OC doesn't prove the sucktitude of Avellone. I am more inclined to believe that Obsidian was ordered to go in the direction juvenile and generic atmosphere and setting. KotOR 2 has some of the best characters EVER. Tell me you didn't want to find out more about Nihilus or Sion or that you didn't want to meet other jedi for their answers.

 

[Starwars]

He is of course in a different place now. A young game developer who seems to have gotten fairly free reins with PS:T is quite different from being one of the lead honchos at Obsidian. I imagine he wants to do his best to keep the company afloat first and foremost as well as making it grow bigger.
Sad for us players and fans of more non-mainstream styles of course, but it happens all the time. It's also not anything new, I seem to recall Chris saying before that there is a number of things that he would've changed in PS:T

I could've done with a more balanced combat overall in PS:T though. The slog of the dungeon crawling after Curst is pretty merciless in its boredom, and really hurts the game IMO. If that had been chopped up and sprinkled over the entire game, I think the pacing had been a lot better.
Of course, I could've also done without that combat. I think the small encounters work just fine in PS:T, mainly giving it that edge of danger.

Be happy for what the man has given us, and hope that there will be another young developer giving us something unique and fresh instead. While I think Chris may still have good games left in him, we won't get any games as unique as PS:T from him.

 

[The Feral Kid]

NWN 2 OC doesn't prove the sucktitude of Avellone. I am more inclined to believe that Obsidian was ordered to go in the direction juvenile and generic atmosphere and setting.

No wonder of the declining state of rpgs when fans are so eager to put all the blame to the "evil" publishers and downplay the role of the developer in it. When a game is good it's because of the awesome MCA. When it sucks it's the publishers that didn't let them do their job. I can imagine the discussion over at Obsidian when NWN2 was being made: "We'll make the NWN2 OC a game for everyone and not for hardcore rpg players and then throw an expansion pack as a make-up call to the whiny codexers".

Tell me you didn't want to find out more about Nihilus or Sion or that you didn't want to meet other jedi for their answers.

And for failing to do that, reducing them to cannon fodder as an easy way out for not being able to deal with them properly and deliver what the build-up promises, this game is a mess. Which is even worse when you think half the work had already been done for them by Bioware.

 

[Lumpy]

So how do you explain that immediately after making the NWN2 companions (the quality of which I know nothing about), Chris went and made Gann and Kaelyn? Another accident? Of course he didn't make a large part of MotB, but that's irrelevant. We know exactly what part he made, and we know it's pretty damn good.
Could we simply conclude that Chris sucks at writing generic fantasy and excels at high-fantasy characters (PS:T, MotB, KotOR 2)?

 

[Korgan]

I liked Sith Lords' combat. It's easy, nice-looking and doesn't take away from the story. Playing it for the fencing is stupid, but as a part of the whole it does the job.

 

[MetalCraze]

Chris also invested into Barcelona from Lionheart.
you remember what part of Lionheart didn't suck much, do you?

 

[The Feral Kid]

So how do you explain that immediately after making the NWN2 companions (the quality of which I know nothing about), Chris went and made Gann and Kaelyn? Another accident? Of course he didn't make a large part of MotB, but that's irrelevant. We know exactly what part he made, and we know it's pretty damn good.

It's a result of carefully planned strategy as I wrote above. Collect the money of the casual crowd first and then throw to the more hardcore fans a little leftover to keep them happy. No saying for Avellone only but Obsidian as a whole.

Could we simply conclude that Chris sucks at writing generic fantasy and excels at high-fantasy characters (PS:T, MotB, KotOR 2)?

Something being generic or not isn't pre-decided neither it is inherent. So as much he can take the credit for creating good characters and story, he is to blame for anything crappy as well. So for creating a generic fantasy game like NWN2 OC he and Obsidian suck for creating it and not the game being generic by definition didn't allow them to do something better.

 

[Texas Red]

"And for failing to do that, reducing them to cannon fodder as an easy way out for not being able to deal with them properly and deliver what the build-up promises, this game is a mess. Which is even worse when you think half the work had already been done for them by Bioware."

Stop talking shit. Unlike, say Valve, they gave full explanations and backstories to all of the characters instead of pretend creativity by leaving everything unanswered. Nor did you just kill them and went off to your merry way. If you would remember correctly, both Sion and Nihilus had amazing, unsurpassed dialog both before and after their death.

 

[The Feral Kid]

Stop talking shit. Unlike, say Valve, they gave full explanations and backstories to all of the characters instead of pretend creativity by leaving everything unanswered. Nor did you just kill them and went off to your merry way. If you would remember correctly, both Sion and Nihilus had amazing, unsurpassed dialog both before and after their death.

Is that so? So if the characters where so well-explained and complete why did you say "Tell me you didn't want to find out more about Nihilus or Sion or that you didn't want to meet other jedi for their answers." Is it me or you sound a bit unfulfilled? And sure you went on your merry way after encountering them. As much as you would after killing any random enemy.

 

[Azarkon]

It's a result of carefully planned strategy as I wrote above. Collect the money of the casual crowd first and then throw to the more hardcore fans a little leftover to keep them happy. No saying for Avellone only but Obsidian as a whole.

You make it sound all so insidious, when in fact it's just good market sense, and a necessary component of business survival in a market that has proven to be merciless towards those who're in it "strictly for the art" (ie Troika).

At least Obsidian still gives a damn about the hardcore fans. When was the last time Bioware produced anything that can be remotely considered hardcore?

 

[The Feral Kid]

You make it sound all so insidious, when in fact it's just good market sense, and a necessary component of business survival in a market that has proven to be merciless towards those who're in it "strictly for the art" (ie Troika).

At least Obsidian still gives a damn about the hardcore fans. When was the last time Bioware produced anything that can be remotely considered hardcore?

Sorry, but I'm not willing to become an enabler/apologist for a company that "gives a damn" about hardcore fans enough only to throw them leftovers before going its mass-market next-gen path. If that's enough for you then bon appetit.

As for staying true with their creative identity/fanbase together with having good business sense, look no further than Blizzard.

 

[Hümmelgümpf]

As for staying true with their creative identity/fanbase together with having good business sense, look no further than Blizzard.

Blizzard's fanbase is huge, no other company even comes close. Staying true to them is good business sense.

 

[Lumpy]

As for staying true with their creative identity/fanbase together with having good business sense, look no further than Blizzard.

Bioware is also staying true to their creative identity/fanbase by producing the same kind of crappy RPGs since forevar.
Blizzard isn't dumbing down Diablo 3 because the Diablo series never was much about thinking or depth. It's easy for them to create the same kind of games.

 

[Azarkon]

As for staying true with their creative identity/fanbase together with having good business sense, look no further than Blizzard.

I'm sorry, but Blizzard has only ever been a mass-market company, so clearly it's no effort at all for them to "stay true" to their "creative identity." Blizzard has never had to choose between making a hardcore, niche game versus a casual, commercially successful game, because they never made hardcore, niche-appeal games to begin with!

What you don't seem to get is that what hardcore RPG players want is something that has never been, and probably never will be, mass-market. As such, any company dabbling in hardcore RPGs is forced to choose between business success and their "creative identity." Bioware saw the writing on the wall years ago and made the business-savvy choice to leave hardcore RPGs behind and move into the console/casual RPG market. DA will be the judge of whether they have any of their previous identity left. By comparison, Obsidian is still, at least at the moment, interested in making RPGs with hardcore elements. Thus, it is natural for fans of hardcore RPGs to support the company - because out of all the companies currently in existence, they may very well be the last, best hope (unless you're Polish, or don't mind playing translated games).

I find it very funny that you consider me an enabler/apologist for supporting Obsidian when you support Blizzard - a company whose influence has only ever led to more casual game design and greater focus on the mass-market. Don't get me wrong - I love Blizzard games, but Blizzard has never produced a hardcore CRPG and they never will. You need only read some of Rob Pardo's quotes concerning Blizzard's focus to know why.

 

[The Feral Kid]

Blizzard's fanbase is huge, no other company even comes close. Staying true to them is good business sense.

They could could be creating anything that wasn't even remotely close their previous games and still sell a shitload.

Bioware is also staying true to their creative identity/fanbase by producing the same kind of crappy RPGs since forevar.

That's your opinion. I love BG series and with the exception of KOTOR which was a fun game but nothing really memorable, with its reputation having more to do being a Star Wars game rather than a good one, everything else has gone downhill.

Blizzard isn't dumbing down Diablo 3 because the Diablo series never was much about thinking or depth. It's easy for them to create the same kind of games.

I'm happy to see Blizzard not only not dumbing down their games but looking to improve on them and making them deeper. Which is exaclty the opposite of what Bioware and their sidekick Obsidian are doing. I've never even played a Diablo game cause I don't like non-story driven dungeon crawlers but from what I hear so far I might try this one.

 

[The Feral Kid]

I'm sorry, but Blizzard has only ever been a mass-market company, so clearly it's no effort at all for them to "stay true" to their "creative identity

In your own words too: "Bioware saw the writing on the wall years ago and made the business-savvy choice to leave hardcore RPGs behind and move into the console/casual RPG market."

Now I understand that the BG fanbase wasn't exactly limited and actually when it came out it rendered Diablo obsolete as it was seen as the next step in the evolution of rpgs. Everyone was way more interested in a cinematic story driven game than a hack-slash dungeon crawler. There was Fallout first then BG followed and with it all the IE engine games. And there was much bigger interest in the gaming/rpg community to see BG3 or Fallout 3 early this decade than to see a Diablo 2. Yet Bio not choosing to follow on the same path together with the events at Interplay/Black Isle have brought Diablo again at the forefront. If IE games weren't that successful and didn't have mass-appeal, Interplay wouldn't be making one after the other. Yet they decided to change course and thankfully it brought their downfall.

Coincidentally it was Interplay who introduced the ethic "making shitty console games so that we can sometime make good ones like Van Buren", and which Obsidian are now so happy to embrace . The results of such course are known to everyone. I highly doubt if Interplay or Bioware had continued the same path and try to refesh it every now and then with new elements would have done them any wrong business-wise. DA coming out as initially planned and on a reasonable schedule would have sold probably more than JE and ME combined together. Cause the public was still eager for such games and would have continued and concluded a growing trend in a manner that made sense. If DA ever comes out now it will be too little too late. A missed opportunity.

Obsidian is still, at least at the moment, interested in making RPGs with hardcore elements

The only way for Obsidian to remind themselves and the fans they're still rpg developers is by overuse and over-exposition of the phrase "we are rpg developers"or "this is an rpg game" in every sentence they speak on interviews. Which is more like "we're trying to pass as rpg developers". A little read on AP will do the trick.

 

[MasPingon]

Yeah, but NWN2 was really shitty. I was pissed when I saw how much of a step back it was from NWN1, gameplay-wise.

There is not such a thing as step back from NWN1, gameplay-wise.

 

[Azarkon]

In your own words too: "Bioware saw the writing on the wall years ago and made the business-savvy choice to leave hardcore RPGs behind and move into the console/casual RPG market."

Now I understand that the BG fanbase wasn't exactly limited and actually when it came out it rendered Diablo obsolete as it was seen as the next step in the evolution of rpgs. Everyone was way more interested in a cinematic story driven game than a hack-slash dungeon crawler. There was Fallout first then BG followed and with it all the IE engine games. And there was much bigger interest in the gaming/rpg community to see BG3 or Fallout 3 early this decade than to see a Diablo 2. Yet Bio not choosing to follow on the same path together with the events at Interplay/Black Isle have brought Diablo again at the forefront. If IE games weren't that successful and didn't have mass-appeal, Interplay wouldn't be making one after the other. Yet they decided to change course and thankfully it brought their downfall.

Coincidentally it was Interplay who introduced the ethic "making shitty console games so that we can sometime make good ones like Van Buren", and which Obsidian are now so happy to embrace . The results of such course are known to everyone. I highly doubt if Interplay or Bioware had continued the same path and try to refesh it every now and then with new elements would have done them any wrong business-wise. DA coming out as initially planned and on a reasonable schedule would have sold probably more than JE and ME combined together. Cause the public was still eager for such games and would have continued and concluded a growing trend in a manner that made sense. If DA ever comes out now it will be too little too late. A missed opportunity.

I'm not seeing how Bio's decision to abandon the IE hurt them, considering that NWN, their very next franchise, also produced some of their best-selling titles and the transition to the console market has only further solidified their foothold in the "ZOMG EPIC ACTION CINEMATIC EXPERIENCE" market which is, after all, where the money is.

I mean, it's pretty established that Bio's console games are the Next Generation(tm) of cinematic, story-driven adventure/RPG hybrids so if you think that's what Bioware was popular for, then they've not departed from anything. My point was more to the effect that Bioware used to make semi-hardcore CRPGs, which is very different from "cinematic, story-driven games" (which Bio's still making).

The only way for Obsidian to remind themselves and the fans they're still rpg developers is by overuse and over-exposition of the phrase "we are rpg developers"or "this is an rpg game" in every sentence they speak on interviews. Which is more like "we're trying to pass as rpg developers". A little read on AP will do the trick.

I'll judge AP when it comes, but MoTB and SoZ are both drawn from the old tradition of CRPGs (the one that Bio abandoned). If Obsidian's strategy is to make standalones for mass-market consumption, and then to supplement them with hardcore appeal expansions, that's a-okay with me.