In Progress Let's see Elemental: Fallen Enchantress beta

[covr]

New page, for fuck's sake!

 

[Padre]

This game looks rather promising. I need another update!

 

[hoverdog]

Sorry, I uploaded all the screens, but couldn't be arsed to write it down properly tonight. It'll be here tomorrow.

 

[dextermorgan]

Transparency got screwed up for some reason

 

[hoverdog]

Part III - First Contact

Administration researched. Another +1 to Prestige. Now it's time for some warfare techs.

We start exploring to the west.

Building finished in Gildenshard, a Study is being built now; militia arrives in our capital, clay pit construction starts.

We cast Regeneration on Othollo, he's banged up a bit.

Now that's something tougher.

Fallen Enchantress introduced Wildlands. These are specific, dangerous parts of a map with a specific theme. There are at least five of them (one for each element and this one, which I haven't found before). You cannot settle within their borders until you've defeated the main enemies of a Wildland. The Shroud is a home to darklings, who (I think) are rather easier than elemental lords. Still, it's too early to try and venture inside.

Pioneers and militia covering them are almost there to found our third city.

Agriculture to increase population limits in our cities.

This is unit design panel. For now we don't have many options, apart from traits. To be perfectly honest, I'd rather have many unique, faction-specific units rather than design-your-own army system, because with the latter, you end up creating the very same units with different factions most of the time. There is some unique equipment and even a few creatures, but too few by far.

not this shit again.

: x

Another Inspiration.

Meanwhile, the big darkling army is on the move towards our kingdom! Heroes retreat, and a cenotaph unit is being trained to stop the invasion.

Another kingdom, took them some time.

Sup dawg

Diplomacy screen. Surprisingly enough, Pariden has only one shitty settlement. I wonder for how long did the girl venture before finally settling, cause I'm damn sure that settlement wasn't there when Markin explored that area.

Scouts are sent to investigate.

And another pioneer unit trained. Besides settling a city, pioneers have one more, very infuriating, ability - create outposts. These outpost do not count as cities and won't ever expand, but they create a zone of control. They are mostly useful for targeting valuable resources, so that any other faction won't gain it. That's what we'll do with that iron deposit right there.

The screen was lost somehow, but darklings turned around and marched back to their lands. Cenotaphs stay at home to defend against raiders (every town has militia, but they're rather weak). Markin with his bro turns east and finds this. He's not a mage, but that defence is better than nothing.

I was torn between Path of the Defender and Warrior. In the end, I chose the latter.

Some armor to have at last.

We come upon a Medium quest.

another kingdom. this one's bigger.

level 8, oh wow.

Quest cave.

And a big bear! I was expecting something scarier.

However, he killed Othollo. Fucking mauling.

Well, not exactly killed. Champions after being reduced to 0 hit points don't get killed, just suffer a negative trait. And those traits should definitely be worse. -1 attack? bitch please.

Now this is cool.

bonus shot: cloth map.

 

[dextermorgan]

You can say what you want about the game, but I really dig the art style.

 

[Brother None]

Cloth map!!!!

 

[Genma:TheDestroyer]

When the penalty you get for 'death' can largely be made irrelevant by the loot of the quest or a simple level up, something's broken.

 

[hoverdog]

a short update

we continue exploring down south

however, we come across a impenetrable (for now) wall

some more niggas, these seem powerful

pioneers build an outpost

we can even upgrade it! however, we currently lack the technology for most. Armory increases attack for our troops in the outpost's ZoC, while Fortify increases defence.

'sup Drog

Ask me about Arcanum

We're building a mine on the captured iron ore depo.

A World Achievement, quite like those in Civilization.

We need more pylonspioneers

are we that powerful? AI is supposedly rather weak when it comes to diplomacy, but, well, I won't refuse.

Gildenshard is converted to a Conclave.

A champion with a drake. Ooph.

meanwhile our first scout unit is being attack by a large force of mites. Mites are like darklings, only even wimpier.

However, those scouts didn't stand a chance.

A herbalist is ordered in Gildenshard.

And a pioneer is sent to the west.

Better than our current magic robe.

some hospitable lands! they're quite far off, unfortunately.

a replacement scout unit trained.

moar!

not again

I'm going to cast another enchanted hammers, but...

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

Damn, what a cliffhanger.

 

[Computer Gamer Refugee]

Still I like the cut of this thing's jib. I'll probably try it out when it is done (of course, since I purchased the first one early I seem to recall that it was included in the price, does anyone know if that is still the case?).

 

[hoverdog]

I think it depends on how early. I've preordered, and from what I recall people who bought it one or two months after the premiere are also entitled to FE. You should probably check on stardock's page.

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

You've got to bump it up.

 

[Smashing Axe]

Could you post some more of your impressions? How are you finding this compares to MoM or Age of Wonders now that you've had the opportunity to play a bit more? Hearing a comparison of where it exceeds and falls short of these two giants of the genre would be great. Does it at least stand tall above the first?

 

[hoverdog]

To be honest, I'm sort of torn about this game.
Many things are vastly improved from War of Magic or simply done right. Hero development is interesting, with five different paths, passive and active bonuses. City development overhaul, introduced in Beta 4,

However, there are still many, many things that should be changed or improved. The problem is, most of them probably won't, as Stardock thinks that balance and polish are the only things lacking. Of course, this is completely wrong and will cost them a lot.
Magic right now is bullshit, totally. Access to spells is based on heroes' school levels, which are given at random on levelups. You might play as a magical faction and get only fighting skills on your sovereign. But even when you get those magic levels, you only get a few new spells. Spellpower is not changed by it at all - you must control shards. If those spawn on your enemies' territory - tough luck.
And then there are the spells themselves - each of the six realms has, like, 10-12 spells OVERALL. And half of them is useless to boot. City enchantments are a no-brainer OP - you'll always want to cast as many of them as you can, making essence mandatory. They don't even cost any upkeep. On the other side there's summoning. It's unplayable at best, which is even more funny when you consider that two of starting eight sovereigns have "summoner" as their class. You have maybe six summoning spells IN GAME, and you can have only one summoned creature of the same type at times. Remember conjuring in Mom? Hah, you'd better forget.
All spells are cast instantaneous, and you can spend four thousand mana in a turn if you want. Maybe these are artificial restrictions, but I really liked how had to pump up spell skill to cast quicker in MoM.

Combat also could be better, and it results part from being very straightforward and part from horrid balancing. Currently, you don't have to train any units AT ALL - your first two champions, and maybe one more recruited on the way, will kill each and every enemy they face. XP flows like butthurt on watchwitz, and after spending some time killing mobs heroes are nigh unbeatable. Units don't stand a chance, even (or especially) those late game - mainly because experience is everything.
Then there's the case of HP bloat and defence. Currently, defense >>>> attack; armor beats the shit out of same tier weapons, and with hp bloat battles are turning into slog fests.

There are many more gripes, like pioneer spam, pussy monsters, lack of any differences between factions.

I really want to like this game, but I fear that without excessive modding that will overhaul the game's mechanics, it will end like War of Magic. And will such mods be makeable at all?

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

The game looks really decent from your LP, if a bit basic. I have my doubts about the graphics, but meh. It would be really nice to have a new good tb fantasy strategy, Warlock doesn't cut it for me.

Some of the things you describe really sound retarded though, especially the magic system.

 

[drexciya]

To be honest, I'm sort of torn about this game.
However, there are still many, many things that should be changed or improved. The problem is, most of them probably won't, as Stardock thinks that balance and polish are the only things lacking. Of course, this is completely wrong and will cost them a lot.
Magic right now is bullshit, totally. Access to spells is based on heroes' school levels, which are given at random on levelups. You might play as a magical faction and get only fighting skills on your sovereign. But even when you get those magic levels, you only get a few new spells. Spellpower is not changed by it at all - you must control shards. If those spawn on your enemies' territory - tough luck.
And then there are the spells themselves - each of the six realms has, like, 10-12 spells OVERALL. And half of them is useless to boot. City enchantments are a no-brainer OP - you'll always want to cast as many of them as you can, making essence mandatory. They don't even cost any upkeep. On the other side there's summoning. It's unplayable at best, which is even more funny when you consider that two of starting eight sovereigns have "summoner" as their class. You have maybe six summoning spells IN GAME, and you can have only one summoned creature of the same type at times. Remember conjuring in Mom? Hah, you'd better forget.
All spells are cast instantaneous, and you can spend four thousand mana in a turn if you want. Maybe these are artificial restrictions, but I really liked how had to pump up spell skill to cast quicker in MoM.

Combat also could be better, and it results part from being very straightforward and part from horrid balancing. Currently, you don't have to train any units AT ALL - your first two champions, and maybe one more recruited on the way, will kill each and every enemy they face. XP flows like butthurt on watchwitz, and after spending some time killing mobs heroes are nigh unbeatable. Units don't stand a chance, even (or especially) those late game - mainly because experience is everything.
Then there's the case of HP bloat and defence. Currently, defense >>>> attack; armor beats the shit out of same tier weapons, and with hp bloat battles are turning into slog fests.

There are many more gripes, like pioneer spam, pussy monsters, lack of any differences between factions.

I really want to like this game, but I fear that without excessive modding that will overhaul the game's mechanics, it will end like War of Magic. And will such mods be makeable at all?

You make some good points, but the problem is that you want a second MoM; well this isn't and it won't be MoM. It's in the same vein for sure, but that's it. It offers a lot of improvements over Elemental, but it needs some tweaking. The potential is very much there.

The randomness of the traits can be annoying, but wasn't really a game breaking thing for me so far. Even when selecting Path of the Warrior, I get the option to upgrade my Magic Skills. I partially agree on the spell choices; it's somewhat unbalanced, but some spells only come into their own in specific circumstances. It really depends on your style of play. I'm really not very much into summoning myself so I cannot judge on that, but I prefer buffing magic and the occasional neat spell (Cloud Walking). Some spells are limited in my experience; the beforementioned Cloud Walking spell can only be cast once a day per spellcaster.

Essence was introduced in the latest beta series and limits the number of spells per city and also makes it another trade-off when selecting a square to found a new city. In general you lose some resources if you select a square with more essence (4/4/0 versus 4/2/2 or 3/3/2). So it's not that straightforward.

Combat itself is quite neat and I think the AI has improved somewhat as well. I found it highly surprising when some fast opponents went for my weak supporting hero instead of my regent (who's got a high defense). Defense is very powerful indeed, but with some spells (Growth, Focus), skills (Crushing Blow) and items (Ignore Defense) you can negate even high defense.

The pioneer spam is annoying indeed, but it has been a feature of other games as well (Civilization comes to mind as well); I'm not sure what the best way to fix this would be. Halting growth temporarily or costing food while they're in play might be options. Pussy monsters is a question of balance I guess; in one of the earlier builds monsters were very aggressive and this completely changed the game. If some high-level mob was close to your settlements you were toast. This is quite delicate, maybe it should be a configurable setting. The lack of difference between factions is a big gripe of a number of people, but personally I'm more interested in trying different strategies with any faction. You have some limited customization using the custom factions and custom heroes which offers a number of options already. I'm guessing it's relatively costly (from a design point of view) to create wholly different factions.

That heroes negate units is mostly caused by the fact that initially, your units are extremely shitty. If you manage to level and buff your heroe(s) properly you hardly need any units. But that's strategy as well. I think, currently the research tree takes too long to make units viable. By the time they become interesting, you hardly need them anymore. And still they're very weak (HP wise) initially.

 

[General Maxson]

Man, they spent so much time on it, already had engine and some assets, and it still is not really good. I guess I'll have to try it at least. Don't they have feedback on those things that hoverdog and drexciya mentioned? I remember those things being criticized a few months back (pioneer spamming etc.).

I want MOM 2 in competent hands that don't don't want to make the game nexgen, popamole or accessible (similar to new X-com). Beauty of MOM is that it really is simple and intuitive even after all these years. Add some fun and interesting things and expand gameplay and voila. Problem is a game like that probably isn't profitable enough to be made.

 

[hoverdog]

You make some good points, but the problem is that you want a second MoM; well this isn't and it won't be MoM. It's in the same vein for sure, but that's it. It offers a lot of improvements over Elemental, but it needs some tweaking. The potential is very much there.

Obviously I want a second MoM, it's probably my favourite game of all. All MoM needs is an overhaul with better graphics, a few new features added, much better balance, and of course a working AI. It shouldn't come as a surprise I compare all the games that clearly want to be its successor, now should it? The potential is sure there in FE, but then it was in ToEE too.

The randomness of the traits can be annoying, but wasn't really a game breaking thing for me so far. Even when selecting Path of the Warrior, I get the option to upgrade my Magic Skills. I partially agree on the spell choices; it's somewhat unbalanced, but some spells only come into their own in specific circumstances. It really depends on your style of play. I'm really not very much into summoning myself so I cannot judge on that, but I prefer buffing magic and the occasional neat spell (Cloud Walking). Some spells are limited in my experience; the beforementioned Cloud Walking spell can only be cast once a day per spellcaster.

Random traits on level-up wouldn't bother me if all your magic power didn't depend on them. If your spell mastery grew alongside, say every few levels, I'd be OK with this. But if there's something that really needs MAJOR work, it's the magic system.

Essence was introduced in the latest beta series and limits the number of spells per city and also makes it another trade-off when selecting a square to found a new city. In general you lose some resources if you select a square with more essence (4/4/0 versus 4/2/2 or 3/3/2). So it's not that straightforward.

Problem is, the three resources aren't balanced at all. 3/3/2 is vastly better than 4/2/2, not to mention 4/4/0 or even 4/4/1. Essence > materials >>>> grain.

Combat itself is quite neat and I think the AI has improved somewhat as well. I found it highly surprising when some fast opponents went for my weak supporting hero instead of my regent (who's got a high defense). Defense is very powerful indeed, but with some spells (Growth, Focus), skills (Crushing Blow) and items (Ignore Defense) you can negate even high defense.

The pioneer spam is annoying indeed, but it has been a feature of other games as well (Civilization comes to mind as well); I'm not sure what the best way to fix this would be. Halting growth temporarily or costing food while they're in play might be options.

Making pioneers cost much more production and some 40-50 population will make spam impossible, simply because you'll run out of population soon enough.

Pussy monsters is a question of balance I guess; in one of the earlier builds monsters were very aggressive and this completely changed the game. If some high-level mob was close to your settlements you were toast. This is quite delicate, maybe it should be a configurable setting.

I agree that a careful balance is needed. But if I bounce around two groups of wolves with pioneers for several turns and only then are they attacking me, something is definitely wrong.
Every monster lair should have a ZoC around it, an intrusion into which they would react. Also, roaming monsters that gain in strength as the game progresses.

The lack of difference between factions is a big gripe of a number of people, but personally I'm more interested in trying different strategies with any faction. You have some limited customization using the custom factions and custom heroes which offers a number of options already. I'm guessing it's relatively costly (from a design point of view) to create wholly different factions.

That's the big problem of customizability vs uniqueness. Stardock bet on the former - you can make your own sov, faction and units. However, I am definitely the proponent of the latter, because as it shows, customization paradoxically makes everything look almost the same.

That heroes negate units is mostly caused by the fact that initially, your units are extremely shitty. If you manage to level and buff your heroe(s) properly you hardly need any units. But that's strategy as well. I think, currently the research tree takes too long to make units viable. By the time they become interesting, you hardly need them anymore. And still they're very weak (HP wise) initially.

When you have two heroes from the start, and they can easily level up to high heavens on pitiful mobs (and even defeat is not really costly), then what do you need armies for? Sorry, but for me it's gamebreaking. There should not be another champ nearby, and the early monster should not be easily defeated by a single sovereign. There you go, units needed.

Man, they spent so much time on it, already had engine and some assets, and it still is not really good. I guess I'll have to try it at least. Don't they have feedback on those things that hoverdog and drexciya mentioned? I remember those things being criticized a few months back (pioneer spamming etc.).

Me and a few other guys are fighting the good fight on the elemental forums, but except for a few popamole apologists, there's no response. I really doubt anything major will be changed.

I want MOM 2 in competent hands that don't don't want to make the game nexgen, popamole or accessible (similar to new X-com). Beauty of MOM is that it really is simple and intuitive even after all these years. Add some fun and interesting things and expand gameplay and voila. Problem is a game like that probably isn't profitable enough to be made.

 

[covr]

Hoverdog, you should post your impressions on Stardock board, maybe with link to this thread. Because many won't believe that you can beat the game with only 2 starting units, and stuff like that.

 

[hoverdog]

Disclaimer: Beta 5 should be released this week (probably tomorrow). It's supposed to be centered on balancing and fixing minor problems, no major overhauls. I plan on restarting this LP when the beta arrives.

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

I feel the warp OVERTAKING ME!!!!

 

[hoverdog]

Estimated Beta 5 release date: thursday

 

[Zboj Lamignat]

Estimated Beta 5 release date: thursday

I hope your thread won't be obscured by all the Age of Decadence LPs.

 

[eklektyk]

is it thursday yet????