KotOR 2 is one of the best games ever made

[Jasede]

skyway mean "evil" with bad, Volourn. He thinks that you think Ravel was evil. (Yes, she was, but she is True Neutral when you meet her in the game. She's the facette of Neutral you meet, mentioned in that prophecy your girlfriend gives you; Trias is Good and that poor bastard Filthytongue or something is Evil - they just had to cut a lot of content from that encounter so it isn't that clear).

 

[Binary]

Thanks TWD , yet another thread where Jasede and Skyway can express their emo-love for KOTOR2 and VO can spam away with his usual retardness. Deja-fucking-VU.

Anyway this is the wrong forum gotdammit ! Kotor 2 isn't an RPG , it's an adventure game. Ask anyone. Ask Binary.

Wait wait, you want my opinion? ;-) I actually had played this for like 10 mins in the past, and (total coincidence) I restarted it recently - am still in Telos surface. This is definitely more of an RPG than PST, since at least the stats have some influence in the game :-P

Anyway, the game is definitely interesting, but definitely not a "best game ever". Maybe one of the 20 best RPGs of the last 10 years, as Volourn said...

 

[Texas Red]

skyway mean "evil" with bad, Volourn. He thinks that you think Ravel was evil. (Yes, she was, but she is True Neutral when you meet her in the game. She's the facette of Neutral you meet, mentioned in that prophecy your girlfriend gives you; Trias is Good and that poor bastard Filthytongue or something is Evil - they just had to cut a lot of content from that encounter so it isn't that clear).

The funny part is that Trias was evil and the Tonguesomething was good. Just got it

 

[Darth Roxor]

Isn't the "three enemies" prophecy about the three incarnations in the Fortress of Regrets?
Fhjull was hardly a big enemy that would have to be included in serious prophecies imo. Even more, he was hardly an enemy at all.

This is definitely more of an RPG than PST, since at least the stats have some influence in the game :-P

Did we play the same game? In PST if you didn't have enough constitution you couldn't even exchange your eye for the real one in the Smoldering Corpse among many other things.

 

[Jasede]

Not according to Avellone; Neutral = Ravel, Trias = Good, Fjull = Evil. Remember that it said "Twisted by the planes".

Fjull had so little screentime due to cut content. He's evil, but -forced- to be good by Trias, who is technically good, but falls like a comet.

That said, they likely -also- modelled the three incarnations after the prophecy since the game's real antagonist is, after all, the Practical Incarnation.

 

[MetalCraze]

I wouldn't call Ravel evil. sure she had some of it - but the way she treated TNO speaks that she was more on the neutral side.
the same with Kreia - yes her plans were much more sinister than Ravel's but as far as I remember she didn't think she was doing an evil thing plus her saving of exile's life during the betrayal of jedi council (there already was no point of using the exile for her by that time) and her teachings to be neutral throughout the whole game make her more on a neutral side as well as far not all things she made were evil.
Kreia is still lightyears ahead of most of the villains in videogames.

 

[Volourn]

"she didn't think"

Absoolutely irrelevant.

And, yeah, Ravel wa sevil. You can love someone and still be 'evil'; you know. Evil doesn't equal devoid of any, and all nice feelings.

Difference between Ravel and Kreia is that Ravel made sense. Kreia was pathetic, and forced upon you.

KJreia is an okay villain that could have been awesome. Ravel is just plain, old fashion awesome.

 

[Armacalypse]

"she didn't think"

Absoolutely irrelevant.

Really? So if the village idiot isn't smart enough to know what's best for someone, and does more good than harm with what he thinks is good, he isn't good?

The road to hell is paved with good intentions, but since noone is an expert at perfect altruism you really can't just call every idiot with a screwed up thining evil. Calling them stupid is ok, but calling them evil makes you look stupid.

And, yeah, Ravel wa sevil. You can love someone and still be 'evil'; you know. Evil doesn't equal devoid of any, and all nice feelings.

You are right. But what's your definition of evil?
Since altruism is taken by the good side, and egoism is taken by the neutral side, all that's left is sadism and hate. There really isn't any other objective definition you could use.

So is Ravel sadistic and/or hateful?

 

[Lumpy]

So is Ravel sadistic and/or hateful?

The guy with his arms cut off that carried the jungle memory back to the Sensorium would certainly say so.

 

[Jasede]

Ravel was evil and turned neutral when you meet her; Avellone said so; end of story.

 

[easychord]

Ravel is obviously evil because she isn't humble before god. On the other hand she helps out the nameless one at risk to herself without demanding money so she must be good. Damn, this is harder than it should be. Why can't I tell instantly if someone is good or evil? Why can't it be more like real life where everyone gets told whether they are good or evil when they are 10 years old and they stick to the part for the rest of their lives.

I wouldn't say that KotOR 2 is one of the best games ever made. The writing is good and it stands up to replay more than the original but in many ways it isn't that interesting as a game.

 

[Volourn]

"Ravel was evil and turned neutral when you meet her; Avellone said so; end of story."

I go by what I see in the game; not some out of game stuff. I don't see Ravel as being neutral no matter how much she cares for TNO. Being evil doesn't stop you from loving someone.


"Really? So if the village idiot isn't smart enough to know what's best for someone, and does more good than harm with what he thinks is good, he isn't good?"

Are you really comapring Kreia to a 'Village Idiot'? LMAO She knows exactly what she's doing. What she is doing is destructive, violent, and she has every intention to harm - physically and otherwise - others out of her own personal mgame in her pathetic attempt to destroy the 'evil' of the force despite there being no real evidence that the Force itself is evil. She's a scumbag piece of shit bitch. I can't people are trying to paint as some innocent idealist. LMAO

"So is Ravel sadistic and/or hateful?"

She is most definitely a hateful creature. She has no qualms hurting others. Again, her caring for TNO doesn't change the fact.

Even some of the most 'evil' people in the world's history have people they care about.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

The living god MCA hath spoken. Let us have a 1 second silence.............. Done.

Now, I myself don't think sadism and hate are exactly all there is to the Evil alignments, or strictly limited to the Evil alignments. It's far more about the ethos and methods of the said character as a combination. An Evil character might try to achieve good, but with rather harsh and questionably methods, and even then it's not truly limited to evil (see, Ozymandias from Watchmen).

But Ravel certainly was evil before encountering TNO again in PS:T.

 

[Lumpy]

Ravel was evil and turned neutral when you meet her; Avellone said so; end of story.

She did dismember a man just to get a message to you, even though it wasn't necessary. That's not exactly neutral behaviour.

 

[MetalCraze]

despite there being no real evidence that the Force itself is evil.

Sith? and Jedi?
seeing how Sith use force to do evil and seeing how retarded Jedi are with their stupid rules and stereotypes I would've thought that force is a pos too. btw Jedi were shown in the game as bad betraying motherfuckers which kinda removes the only "force of light" from the game - and it also caused a drama among star wars fanboys.

she knew what she was doing yet she thought it's for the better. that alone makes her not evil. and far from retarded Malak.

 

[Volourn]

"Sith? and Jedi?
seeing how Sith use force to do evil and seeing how retarded Jedi are with their stupid rules and stereotypes I would've thought that force is a pos too. btw Jedi were shown in the game as bad betraying motherfuckers which kinda removes the only "force of light" from the game - and it also caused a drama among star wars fanboys.

she knew what she was doing yet she thought it's for the better. that alone makes her not evil. and far from retarded Malak."

Youa re an idiot.

The Sith don't prove that the Force is evil. What they prove is the Force can be used fore evil. then again, Kreia herself is evidence of this.

Having rules like the Jedi ahve - even if you disagree with them - doens't make them evil. Dumbass.

She didn't no such thing. Her motivations were selfish, personal gain, and pure hatred. Hatred such as that isn't good. She's evil. Plain, and simple.

Malak being retarded or not is irrelevant. Nor is anyone arguing that malak was a good guuy. Bottom line is Kreia is evil. She fits the very defintion of evil. Selfish, no qualms when it comes to murder even innocents, full of hatred, and plain old f ashion scummy behaviour.


"She did dismember a man just to get a message to you, even though it wasn't necessary. That's not exactly neutral behaviour."

Yup. And, it's ebcause she is evil. She cares about TNO; but the man (and many others) she murdered she didn't give a crap about them. They're beneath her and hence worthy of nthing but causing pain to them and using them to her own end. But, this shouldn't be surrpising. She's a hag. That's how they roll.

 

[MetalCraze]

Having rules like the Jedi ahve - even if you disagree with them - doens't make them evil.

their way of acting like cultists because of their rules and willingness to ruin the life of people who doesn't follow that rules make them just as evil as sith. that means the the force can bring only bad things as consequences and that was the part of Kreia's motivation.

Her motivations were selfish, personal gain, and pure hatred.

you do know that she knew she would die with the force as well right? quite selfish I must say

 

[Jasede]

The story KOTOR 2 tells is ill-suited to Star Wars lore, which is why it's such a good game, partly. It pisses all over dumb Star Wars lore.

 

[Volourn]

"their way of acting like cultists because of their rules and willingness to ruin the life of people who doesn't follow that rules make them just as evil as sith. that means the the force can bring only bad things as consequences and that was the part of Kreia's motivation."

Only an evil follower of Kreia's twisted teachings would believe the bullshit you just wrote.


"you do know that she knew she would die with the force as well right? quite selfish I must say"

Her hatred was selfish. It was all about Kreia, and Kreia's feelings. She didn't care about the innocents who would die. Her sacrifice is no more noble than a suciide bomber who targets anyone in their path. Her mission of pain, suffering, and death was the only thing kreia cared about so, absolutely, she was selfish. She's the veryd efintion of selfish.

She wanted want she wanted, and other be damned. Kreia simply did NOT care.

 

[-Pavlos-]

LMAO She knows exactly what she's doing. What she is doing is destructive, violent, and she has every intention to harm - physically and otherwise - others out of her own personal mgame in her pathetic attempt to destroy the 'evil' of the force despite there being no real evidence that the Force itself is evil. She's a scumbag piece of shit bitch. I can't people are trying to paint as some innocent idealist.

"It is said that the Force has a will, it has a destiny for us all. I wield it, but it uses us all, and that is abhorrent to me. Because I hate the Force. I hate that it seems to have a will, that it would control us to achieve some measure of balance, when countless lives are lost."

Kreia is a twisted freedom fighter. She dislikes the Force because it has a will, a need to bring balance to all things. She's fighting against a predetermined destiny. She's fighting for free will and she's prepared to do anything to gain it. The obvious and intended irony is, of course, that Kreia acts much as the Force does in the end. She toys with galactic politics, manipulates events, forces (pun not intended) people to do her bidding and nudges them onto train tracks towards a destiny of which she is the architect. She is that which she hates.

Kreia is a woman filled with contradictions and it's perhaps demonstrated by her two faces, her many identities, and her ability to conceal herself from the eyes of any mortal. The odd thing is, she's hiding from herself.

Edit: I *will* defend the creative integrity of MCA's work in K2... it gets bashed too much for me not to.

 

[MetalCraze]

Only an evil follower of Kreia's twisted teachings would believe the bullshit you just wrote.

probably Jedi Council wanted to strip exile of everything because they were oh such good guys

as for Kreia being selfish - Pavlos just pwned you with her own description of her motivation to fight the force. there is this "us" word instead of "I".
and what did oh so good Jedi Council do? they were forcing the destiny they wanted on you. making the force a bad thing again.

probably in the black and white world of a Bioware fanboy everything that is not defined as the defender of light is bad and evil.

 

[The Rambling Sage]

That means the the force can bring only bad things as consequences and that was the part of Kreia's motivation.

Emmm... No? It only means that people is taking something neutral and using it for impossing their will unto others. Blaming The Force instead of blaming people is like blaming the gun instead of blaming the guy who pulls the trigger. It is people that can bring only bad things as consequences.

By wanting to destroy the force instead of the people she was just taking one way in wich "evil people" would do evil deeds and stupid people would do stupid deeds - How smart! They will all just have to improvise a new one! Would we destroy all space ships, too? And guns, swords, grenades... Hey, even people with big fists.

In any case, removing people's hability to be evil does not make them "good" - It makes them morons who aren't evil because they can't. Sooner or later the find a way to once more be able. Great job!

I recognize her as a well done character - But she is not a character that was "right".

As far as i remember (i haven't played Kotor2 in a long time, waiting for TG to finish their piece of vaporware before replaying) she had a thing against being "neutral" and not giving a fuck. Meanwhile it came to both sides of the "force" to be idiots, morons, and "evil" - Maybe the problem were the extremists using the force as an excuse to push their agendas and philosophies down other people's throats instead of "the force."

[Edit]

"It is said that the Force has a will, it has a destiny for us all. I wield it, but it uses us all, and that is abhorrent to me. Because I hate the Force. I hate that it seems to have a will, that it would control us to achieve some measure of balance, when countless lives are lost."

I hate gravity. It seems to have a will, a destiny for us all. I hate it because it would keep us going down at great speeds until we turn into a small crater even if countless lives are lost.

Oh, yes. And gravity can be used for bad things... Like throwing people out the window. Down with gravity! (pun not intended)

 

[MetalCraze]

according to her own logic (read pavlos quote) it was like the force forced something onto everyone (I may think the ones who used it as well right?). so it's quite different than a gun
more like a power that corrupts people making them selfish dictators. in case of KotOR2 this power corrupted every faction that used it. Kreia also puts it like this power has a consciousness - and it isn't that untrue.

 

[-Pavlos-]

Blaming The Force instead of blaming people is like blaming the gun instead of blaming the guy who pulls the trigger. It is people that can bring only bad things as consequences.

Not really. Perhaps you're not well-up on Star Wars lore (it's more than understandable if you're not because most of it is awful) but the Force has an odd sort of consciousness of its own.

• "It is the will of the Force"
• "Bring balance to the Force"
• "As one trained in the Force you know that true coincidences are rare"

How many times do you hear stuff like that all over Star Wars? A lot, is the answer. The Force can be utilised by an individual, yes, but that doesn't stop it from utilising that individual, his nation, or his race. It plans out people's lives for them like some kind of supernatural and omnipotent nanny. It undermines free will and that is what Kreia is opposed to.

Now, I'm not saying that Kreia is right or wrong to be opposed to it but you have to understand her motivations in doing what she does.

 

[Armacalypse]

She doesn't seem to be very altruistic. But she doesn't seem that sadistic or hateful against other people either.

She doesn't hate a person for who they are, she's hating a "thing" for what it does to her (and maybe for what it does to others).
This is not the same as hating a person for who they are. It's like hating shit because it smells bad, or hating the legal system because it's shit, or hating Oblivion because of your personal subjective preference (and because it's shit).

But then she doesn't seem selfish either. So her intentions must be moral ones that don't involve altruism or sadism, like those morals and principles possessed by the extremely lawful or chaotic in various games.