KickStarter Kingdom Come: Deliverance Pre-Release Thread [RELEASED, GO TO NEW THREAD]

[Metro]

Hiking Simulator. Let me know when there's gameplay footage or anything related to character development, exploration, itemization... any facet of an RPG aside from pretty vistas.

We calculated that the success of Skyrim would teach Publishers what RPGs are about

 

[Broseph]

We calculated that the success of Skyrim would teach Publishers what hiking simulators are about

Fixed.

 

[villain of the story]

Hiking Simulator. Let me know when there's gameplay footage or anything related to character development, exploration, itemization... any facet of an RPG aside from pretty vistas.

We calculated that the success of Skyrim would teach Publishers what RPGs are about

Yeah, Dan is sort of a little quite fucking retarded about the concept of RPGs. He thinks the perfect RPG is the one where you don't need character stats and skills and utilizes uber photo-realism and lots of twitch.

I'm curious about how it will turn out and look forward to it as I'm sure it will be an interesting and refreshing game with an emphasis on more medieval authenticity but I doubt it will have any quality as an RPG.

I'd definitely welcome a medieval ArmA with open arms, though. We really need such a game.

 

[Daniel.Vavra]

Yeah, Dan is sort of a little quite fucking retarded about the concept of RPGs. He thinks the perfect RPG is the one where you don't need character stats and skills and utilizes uber photo-realism and lots of twitch.

I see we have a psychic here!

 

[Metro]

So how did the pitch to Deep Silver go?

 

[DarthBehemoth]

Wow, this game looks really pretty. But knowing how much pretty graphics cost these days, this game's story will probably leave a lot to be desired.

 

[villain of the story]

Yeah, Dan is sort of a little quite fucking retarded about the concept of RPGs. He thinks the perfect RPG is the one where you don't need character stats and skills and utilizes uber photo-realism and lots of twitch.

I see we have a psychic here!

What, you did say those things after all, are you denying any of it? Tell us once more about how you think inverse kinematics will revolutionarize the genre and minimise the need for character stat abstractions. Once more with feeling.

And I hope you realise half the reason Skyrim sold 20+ millions is solid marketing. If you brought even one of Bethesda's own future TES best-sellers from the future to the present and tried to sell it without the same marketing backing, it would be one of those obscure games. Best wishes in that area.

 

[Daniel.Vavra]

Yeah, Dan is sort of a little quite fucking retarded about the concept of RPGs. He thinks the perfect RPG is the one where you don't need character stats and skills and utilizes uber photo-realism and lots of twitch.

I see we have a psychic here!

What, you did say those things after all, are you denying any of it? Tell us once more about how you think inverse kinematics will revolutionarize the genre and minimise the need for character stat abstractions. Once more with feeling.

And I hope you realise half the reason Skyrim sold 20+ millions is solid marketing. If you brought even one of Bethesda's own future TES best-sellers from the future to the present and tried to sell it without the same marketing backing, it would be one of those obscure games. Best wishes in that area.

You are calling me "fucking retarded" based on one sentence in an interview taken out of context and very little information you have about yet unannounced game. Then you try to act like gestapo officer interogatting prisoners asking me questions any sane person knows I cant answer yet. Most importantly, I hope that you surely know what happens, when you shout at strangers on internet, that they are fucking retarded?

 

[Infinitron]

Most importantly, I hope that you surely know what happens, when you shout at strangers on internet, that they are fucking retarded?

 

[zwanzig_zwoelf]

 

[Kem0sabe]

Hmm, so will there be stats or not? I'm confused.

 

[villain of the story]

I would also like to point out, that our RPG system is VERY complicated and detailed, but its only visible when its necessary. When its possible to represent something in "real life" we prefer to do it this way, but of course, that there is lots of stats anc calculations in the background. I simply dont see any reason why should I use turn based combat with dice throws, when its possible to do simulate very realistic and sophosticated realtime combat. In real life, I dont see fencers throwin a dice when they figt

Retard or not, you decide.

I know you've also told us that there will be many stats and they will mostly be hidden where feasible and that's okay, Dan, but the problem I have with your attitude is that you are lessening Role-Playing to a mere simulation that tries to mimic reality to the best of the current hardware's capacity and while at it, you are dismissing all other VALID forms of Role-Playing, as you dismiss turn-based above.

It might not be your cup of tea and that is perfectly fine too but if you honestly fail to see the point of so many RP systems with different approaches simply based on your LARPer's impulse to simulate everything as much as possible, go fuck yourself man. I don't need some guy with a simulation-fetish to tell me that my perspective is invalid simply because I have a different set of priorities on what makes a RPG. And I'm a simulationist myself.

Simulation != cutting edge mimicry of real life. Where is the cutting edge mimicry of real life in magic by your logic? In party-based squad games where you can control several characters? In any viewpoint other than first person? Let me tell you where: good fucking design with some common sense. Not cutting edge mimicry of real life.

In a CRPG, the deciding factor for any given character stat to be represented visually or not should not be determined by the limitations of current technology and hardware but the design itself. Whether you need the game telling you what your Strength is should not be determined by "whether you can personally feel the strength of your character" (LOLWTF)

Even if we got to such a point where there would literally be no difference between looking around in real life and looking at a real-time 3D scene in your monitor, a huge number of things would still have to be decided by your approach to design, not by your fetish for cutting edge mimicry of real life.

Some people can pick minute-details far better and from far further. Some can not. Some people can read tracks. Some can not. Some people can immediately spot someone hiding behind the bushes. Some can not. Some fighters could read your body language and predict your next move. Some can not. Some fighters can think better and faster to decide on the next set of moves in the middle of a fight. Some can not. How will your cutting edge mimicry of real life will distinguish between such critical differences? If I'm poor at any of those, I will still be poor at them while looking at a 3D scene that does cutting edge mimicry of real life.

And you can solve all of those problems only with good fucking design, not with cutting edge mimicry of real life. What cutting edge mimicry of real life can do is make it look prettier. For those with a hard-on for cutting edge mimicry of real life. It won't do shit for those who prefer stylized graphics. Good and sensible design trumps all technological prowess.

For instance, let's put your "very realistic and sophisticated real-time combat" driven by inverse-kinematics under scrutiny: will I be able to "feel" (or be given an indicator about) the pressure in my grip when my sword connects with that of my enemy? Since you confess to have studied fencing, I'm sure you know that's a vital part. To make a quick judgement based on the pressure so you can decide whether you will wind the blade to strike without disconnecting and without opening yourself up, or drive your blade up the opponent's blade to open up new moves, or drive it down to escape the opponent's blade to attack an opening, or disconnect or any number of counter-attacks; you need to be able to gauge accurately how hard the enemy had struck the moment the blades connect. The whole ordeal about discerning whether to use the "weak" or the "strong" of the blade.

So now, tell me if your precious IK will factor in, if that amount of detail is in your system. I'm asking in such detail because you brought it up yourself

In the old days, it was just not possible to make a fencing simulator, so it was "simulated" with dice throws and some rules. But in the real world, fencing is skill based and if I want to play the role of a swordsman, it only makes sense, that the game will ask me to show some skill. Problem is, that fencing is hard, I can tell you, I had few fencing lessons, so since the game is done for entertainment purposes, it will make the fencing much easier, but will still require some skill. What is wrong with that? There is still huge difference between action game and rpg game combat. My character still has lots of stats that affect the combat (strength, agility, stamina, perks....), I have lot of equipment that I modified. Isn't that roleplaying? In my opinion it is. But anyone has different tastes and I cant do anything about that

Since, by your admission, "the game is done for entertainment purposes" and "fencing will be much easier", are you not betraying your own conviction that simulation is the be all end all answer to Role-Playing? Especially considering you also said that you see no point to dice throws "when its possible to do simulate very realistic and sophisticated real-time combat".

So, is your combat very realistic and sophisticated or is it not? I think that, judging by all of your statements, it might be very detailed beyond what most (if not all) games do but also judging by your fetish for cutting edge mimicry of real life, I doubt it will be "realistic" by your standard since you already admitted to making it easier for entertainment purposes.

Hmmm, something here is amiss. How can someone opt for anything less than a stellar simulation of real life for entertainment purposes and have the gulls to call it Role-Playing when the same person practices a fetish for cutting edge mimicry of real life, to the point of invalidating other forms of Role-Playing that doesn't even try to do real-time or cutting edge mimicry of real life?

I hope you are seeing my point.

Personally, I think that whatever you are doing will be still Role-Playing as long as character stats are involved and aren't overshadowed by the player's own twitch skills. But there is no excuse for bullshit arguments and it's always a nice to try and poke an eye out to oppose bullshit arguments with aggravation. And I will continue to do so as long as we get bullshit like "limitations of the past", invalidating our way of Role-Playing.

Sorry, got no funny YouTube links for you.

 

[Daniel.Vavra]

You know what is wrong with this type of discussion (and thinking)? You are making assumptions without knowing enough facts and you are taking as a fact that your opponent is retarded and you know better. How could you write a page long analysis about three sentences that I said? I said, that I think about a computer game as a simulation of a kind and that I prefer when things make sense and are logical. I also said, that its an entertainment, so we don't want the players to train fencing for several years to be able to play it. I also said, that I like old Fallout and that our game will have lot of stats. You take those statements, and just because you are not able to imagine how these elements could mix together, you assume that I am "fucking retarded". Thing is, that I design games for 15 years, and I am sitting in the office with two other guys who have the same experience and are designing the game with me. One of them written several successful tabletop RPGs in last twenty years. We spent months thinking about our RPG system. I am designing our PERK system right now actually. Our design document has 400+ pages. And last but not least, our previous games did pretty well commercially and critically (now I sound like selfish arrogant prick But the truth is, I cant answer you questions before the game is announced. So you may either wait a little and then make opinion or make assumptions and call me retard as you did. In the end, you might be right, I may be wrong and the game will suck. We are doing our best to make it great and I strongly believe that some of the ideas have huge potential for something special and fresh. But only time will tell who is right.

 

[Jedi Exile]

I also said, that I like old Fallout and that our game will have lot of stats

A game with (lots) of stats, what more do you need?




The new screenshot looks gorgeous, by the way. Fuck Gamebryo.

You take those statements, and just because you are not able to imagine how these elements could mix together, you assume that I am "fucking retarded". Thing is, that I design games for 15 years, and I am sitting in the office with two other guys who have the same experience bla bla bla.

I mean no disrespect, of course, but it seems to me that Mr. Vavra is retarded still new to the Codex.

 

[deuxhero]

Thing is, that I design games for 15 years, and I am sitting in the office with two other guys who have the same experience and are designing the game with me.

Just look at the front page of this website and you will see news article about a man with almost 20 years of experience who managed to fail to make a simple port of a game, producing something with plenty of bugs not in the original, so that should tell you how much experience matters in this medium.

Well, at least you are here and not rage quiting the instant someone challenges you, which is better than a lot of devs.

 

[villain of the story]

BAAAWWWW

You know what is wrong with this type of discussion (and thinking)? You are making assumptions without knowing enough facts

Where? Everything I said is based on what you said, oldboy.

and you are taking as a fact that your opponent is retarded and you know better.

Of course I do

How could you write a page long analysis about three sentences that I said?

You actually said more than that but that's okay.

I said, that I think about a computer game as a simulation of a kind and that I prefer when things make sense and are logical

And added that the way things make sense and are logical to you is when they are cutting edge mimicries of real life which you say weren't possible before until recently and that's why we used dice and stuff in ye olden days.

I also said, that its an entertainment, so we don't want the players to train fencing for several years to be able to play it.

How can you decide where to draw that line "for entertainment" and then go on to invalidate other forms of role-playing such as turn based or dice rolls which also are tools used for entertainment?

I also said, that I like old Fallout

Doesn't matter since you also said: "I simply dont see any reason why should I use turn based combat with dice throws, when its possible to do simulate very realistic and sophosticated realtime combat. In real life, I dont see fencers throwin a dice when they fight".

The problem isn't what you like and you don't. The problem is in your thinking that in an age where inverse kinematics or whatever techno-mumbo-jumbo are viable to pursue, you no longer see a point to using anything else but. I say that if that's how you think -and let us all know if it's not-, then you are dead inside, figuratively, from a game design perspective.

Of course, I'm exaggerating for dramatic license. "For entertainment".

and that our game will have lot of stats.

Which I already pointed out that I know.

You take those statements and just because you are not able to imagine how these elements could mix together

Ironic that you say this, considering you are not able to imagine how those ultra-realistic elements could be achieved far more simply in other forms of Role-Playing, eg. turn based and dice rolls.

And on the contrary, I can well imagine how all those elements could mix together but once again, that's beside the point. However, I assert that cutting edge tech is not necessary for those elements. That's just gimmicks.

you assume that I am "fucking retarded".

I see that I'm not far off the mark

Thing is, that I design games for 15 years, and I am sitting in the office with two other guys who have the same experience and are designing the game with me.

LOLWUT is this supposed to impress anyone? There are people who have been making games far longer than you are and all that some of them got to show is shit games. Todd Howard has been making games far longer than you and what has he got to show? Fucking Oblivion, fucking FO3, fucking Skyrim. R00FLES!

One of them written several successful tabletop RPGs in last twenty years. We spent months thinking about our RPG system.

[Intelligence] I see that you are quite the thinkers.

Anyway, that's interesting. Is there an English version to any of them? I'd like to take a look.

I am designing our PERK system right now actually. Our design document has 400+ pages.

I would love to take a look at that design document. In fact, why not share it with us here? Maybe a select few who would write their impressions about it so we can all share ideas here. Codex is particularly good about that. Call it a Codex exclusive insider. While at it, don't we have Czech Codexers? Maybe we could send an emissary to your studio for an exclusive look at the prototype?

And last but not least, our previous games did pretty well commercially and critically

Good to know, Johnny.

(now I sound like selfish arrogant prick

Not really, other than the fact that it was a rather irrelevant piece of information but thank you for sharing anyway.

But the truth is, I cant answer you questions before the game is announced.

That is understandable but I strongly believe that the points I've been raising are not necessarily about the game but about the attitude you put on display towards other game systems and its implications for your game.

So you may either wait a little

Oh, I'm waiting alright.

and then make opinion

Nah, I'd like to form and voice my opinions right away and continue the process as new data comes out.

In the end, you might be right, I may be wrong and the game will suck.

I don't know about that since I never even implied anything about whether the game would suck or not. I think it has great potential. I'm only questioning your grasp on computer Role-Playing and how that might reflect on the game. I am hugely disinclined to trust anyone who makes such egregious claims as "back in the day, we were constrained by technological limitations, that's why we used dice". As a long time RPGamer, let me tell you something: I love dice because they are gamey and are fair tools of calculated randomisation. And if I hear anyone with a LARPer's tooth trash them and tell me otherwise, well, FUCK HIM TO THE GRAVE.

We are doing our best to make it great and I strongly believe that some of the ideas have huge potential for something special and fresh. But only time will tell who is right.

Best wishes. Looking forward to it.

 

[hiver]

You know what is wrong with this type of discussion (and thinking)? You are making assumptions without knowing enough facts -

That tends to happen a lot around here, which im sure youll notice if you stick around.

How could you write a page long analysis about three sentences that I said?

Telepathy.


Here, its official.

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/codexian-mbti-profile-poll.79976/

I am designing our PERK system right now actually. Our design document has 400+ pages.

could be better...

 

[Delterius]

Most importantly, I hope that you surely know what happens, when you shout at strangers on internet, that they are fucking retarded?

Yeah, remember when you thought he was shit-posted out of orbit? Guy has balls.

 

[Humanity has risen!]

If he is intent on making a good action RPG with a believable world Gothic 2 is the game he should take inspiration from, not Skyrim.

I am a bit worried if he sounds like he wants to woo a publisher by promising to make the next Skyrim, though it looks like Daniel is keenly aware of many of the pitfalls of modern gaming. Hopefully it would mean no quest compass, no hand holding, no thousands of useless objects to pick up, an emphasis on gathering clues yourself instead of NPCs spelling out everything for you, and other such tropes associated with Bethesda.

 

[Suchy]

Thing is, that I design games for 15 years, and I am sitting in the office with two other guys who have the same experience and are designing the game with me.

Just look at the front page of this website and you will see news article about a man with almost 20 years of experience who managed to fail to make a simple port of a game, producing something with plenty of bugs not in the original, so that should tell you how much experience matters in this medium.

Well, at least you are here and not rage quiting the instant someone challenges you, which is better than a lot of devs.

Because fucking up a game port on technical level is exactly the same as fucking up game design?

 

[Lyric Suite]

Setting is pretty incline. Looks like actual medieval Europe and historically looking weapons and armors beat retarded fantasy shit any time, any day.

Everything else seems like decline, but modders will fix it, maybe?

 

[mikaelis]

You guys are fucking unbearable. Just wait till announcement, for fucks sake!

If I was pissed and had powers. I would curse you with ALL games being isometric-turned-based RPG set in fantasy elfish-gayism...

..but I am not pissed, and so I want a solid historical aRPG set in the middle of fucking central Europe, with evil pope, more evil bishops, raubitters, nobility-whinners and traitors, peasants fucked in their ass and a fucking anti-hero that will charge through this mess.

So, I am counting on you Daniel.Vavra

 

[Lyric Suite]

a solid historical aRPG set in the middle of fucking central Europe, with evil pope, more evil bishops, raubitters, nobility-whinners and traitors, peasants fucked in their ass and a fucking anti-hero that will charge through this mess.

I love how the only alternative to retarded fantasy crap is retarded grim/dark Game of Thrones shit.

 

[deuxhero]

Hiking Simulator. Let me know when there's gameplay footage or anything related to character development, exploration, itemization... any facet of an RPG aside from pretty vistas.

I'm going to point out how the guy blocks with the edge of his blade and not his flat at 17 seconds in. That sure does "make sense and [is] logical" (I've never taken fencing, but I see that on every list of what hollywood fencing gets wrong next to "aiming at the opponents weapon and not the opponent")

 

[villain of the story]

That looks to me like he's receiving the blow on the flat. You can even tell by the hand raised back to tilt the sword.