IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO TOTALLY AVOID COMBAT IN FALLOUT 3.

[vrok]

Is there a universal gamer glossary somewhere I'm unaware of?

You're writing to it right now. SP is the source. *DUN DUN*

 

[Silellak]

I also don't think Fallout 3 is by any definition a linear game, unless you desperately twist the definition of "linear game" to mean "only the main plot thread is linear."

Only the main plot counts. Side quests are irrelevant. You know why? Because if we include side quests then 99% of games are non-linear and your definition becomes useless because it fails to define anything.

The existence of side quests alone does not make a game non-linear, I agree.

But I've also never heard anyone (outside of the Codex, shockingly) try and claim that only the main plot thread counts when trying to decide if a game is linear or not.

Let's go out in a limb and say I find playing Fallout 3 to be fun. Let's say I've put 30 hours into the game and have yet to touch the main plot thread, yet still have a large amount of content to discover.

Fallout 3 has, so far, given me 30 hours of non-linear entertainment. I could put the game away today and still feel I'd gotten my money's worth. I could finish all non-main-plot related quests and areas and put the game back on the shelf and never touch it again, yet still have had an enjoyable experience - the point of a game.

Why is the main plot somehow "required" to be finished? What if I just play it as a sandbox post-apocalyptic game with an optional storyline? Sure, some areas/items/characters may not be reachable without following the main plot, but a huge chunk of the game's content is wide-open. How can anyone describe such a game as linear?

It's a non-linear sandbox game that has a linear, optional, storyline plot thread.

 

[Sarvis]

I also don't think Fallout 3 is by any definition a linear game, unless you desperately twist the definition of "linear game" to mean "only the main plot thread is linear."

Only the ... counts. ... are irrelevant. You know why? Because if we include... then 99% of games are ... and your definition becomes useless because it fails to define anything.

It's almost like you guys have been listening to me all along!

 

[vrok]

Yeah and CoD's "storyline plot thread" is optional because you could have fun running around in random (non-linear) patterns for 30 hours or more.

 

[Silellak]

Yeah and CoD's "storyline plot thread" is optional because you could have fun running around in random (non-linear) patterns for 30 hours or more.

Yeah, running around in circles on the same map shooting the same enemies for 30 hours is exactly the same as actual game content that takes 30+ hours to play through.

If you want to criticize the content or gameplay of FO3, go ahead. But this comparison is ridiculous.

 

[vrok]

Hey, you wrote the ridiculous part. I just showed you why it was ridiculous.

 

[HanoverF]

Let's go out in a limb and say I find playing Fallout 3 to be fun.

Fallout 3 has, so far, given me 30 hours of non-linear entertainment.

Ok so you're going out on a limb to say you're retarded. Any other embarrassing revelations about yourself you'd like to make while you're out on said limb?

 

[Vault Dweller]

So I wake up from the simulator pod and have a nice chat with Dad. He wants me to go with him to Rivet City to continue his research. I refuse, telling him I've got other things to do. He says to meet me there when I'm ready.

So this portion of the main plot seems to me to be non-linear in that I don't have to continue on with it right away, but it is linear in that its progress can only be furthered according to how Bethesda wants me to do it, not necessarily when. So who's right?

It's linear because all you can do is take a break. You aren't saying "I'll do some other main quest stuff first, dad". You're saying "I'll go and do some random shit first, like finish looting this vault, and then come back and continue the main quest, k?"

The main quest has two parts: "looking for dad" and "found dad!". Looking for dad is non-linear. You can talk to different people and learn where dad is. You can even bump into him accidentally. You don't have a linear chain of people to talk to and places to go to in order to find your father. With high speech you can even convince Three Dog to tell you where he is without doing a quest for him first.

Once you found dad, it's a linear journey to the end. Gothic 1 did the same thing. Once you join a camp, welcome to the railroad.

All I can tell you is that I made the choice not to go with him, and it was for role-playing purposes (ZOMG!). I felt a tug from my new adopted home, Megaton, and I wanted to help out more there before saving humanity in general. This feels to me like a non-linear game for those reasons.

Most games allows you to take a break from linear main quests and do some side quests to level up and get some loot.

 

[Silellak]

The main quest has two parts: "looking for dad" and "found dad!". Looking for dad is non-linear. You can talk to different people and learn where dad is. You can even bump into him accidentally. You don't have a linear chain of people to talk to and places to go to in order to find your father. With high speech you can even convince Three Dog to tell you where he is without doing a quest for him first.

So only part of the main plot thread is linear, therefore Fallout 3 is a linear game.

Got it.

 

[JarlFrank]

The main quest has two parts: "looking for dad" and "found dad!". Looking for dad is non-linear. You can talk to different people and learn where dad is. You can even bump into him accidentally. You don't have a linear chain of people to talk to and places to go to in order to find your father. With high speech you can even convince Three Dog to tell you where he is without doing a quest for him first.

So only part of the main plot thread is linear, therefore Fallout 3 is a linear game.

Got it.

The largest part of the main plot is linear. The important part, actually. The part that leads to the end. The non-linear part is just a tiny little bit in the beginning. Actually just one quest. Find your dad. After that, it's linear. That makes it a linear game with non-linear parts.

 

[Vault Dweller]

The existence of side quests alone does not make a game non-linear, I agree.

But I've also never heard anyone (outside of the Codex, shockingly) try and claim that only the main plot thread counts when trying to decide if a game is linear or not.

Well, you can't agree that side quests don't make games non-linear and then disagree that only the main quest counts. So, which one?

Let's go out in a limb and say I find playing Fallout 3 to be fun. Let's say I've put 30 hours into the game and have yet to touch the main plot thread, yet still have a large amount of content to discover.

And your point is? How do your enjoyment of the game and appreciation of the optional content make it a non-linear game?

Why is the main plot somehow "required" to be finished?

Did anyone say that?

What if I just play it as a sandbox post-apocalyptic game with an optional storyline?

I'm happy for you. However this interesting fact doesn't make it non-linear. Not. At. All.

So only part of the main plot thread is linear, therefore Fallout 3 is a linear game.

Actually, I'd say it's non-linear.

 

[King Crispy]

If there were absolutely no level scaling at all, couldn't all the "side quests" be considered part and parcel to the main plot since the items and experience garnered through completing them would be essential in elevating the PC's power level enough to be able to tackle it later on?

...yeah, that's a reach. Oh well. I can't quit you, Bethesda! :sob:

 

[Silellak]

Well, you can't agree that side quests don't make games non-linear and then disagree that only the main quest counts. So, which one?

I said side quests alone don't make a game non-linear.

Can you find me a non-Codex definition where a game is only non-linear if there are multiple paths through the main plot thread? I don't think there IS any ONE definition of what a non-linear game is. For me, a non-linear game is one where I can experience most of the content (locations, characters, items, side quests, etc.) without being required to go through the main plot thread.

I accept that "multiple paths through the main plot thread" is a definition of non-linear, but I don't think it's the only definition.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I said side quests alone don't make a game non-linear.

Why are we talking about them then?

Can you find me a non-Codex definition where a game is only non-linear if there are multiple paths through the main plot thread?

Unlike you I don't really care who thinks what.

I don't think there IS any ONE definition of what a non-linear game is. For me, a non-linear game is one where I can experience most of the content (locations, characters, items, side quests, etc.) without being required to go through the main plot thread.

You like sandbox aka "do whatever the hell you want" games. "Do whatever you want" and non-linear are two different things.

I accept that "multiple paths through the main plot thread" is a definition of non-linear, but I don't think it's the only definition.

Do you really think that something can be explained in conflicting definitions?

 

[BethesdaLove]

"Do you really think that something can be explained in conflicting definitions?"

Yes, time travel!

 

[JarlFrank]

 

[Texas Red]

I haven't read these FO 3 threads but I have a question. I'm currently looking for vault 112 and I'm getting sick of constantly fighting. Rivet city had only a few weak quests. I want a big town with a lot of diplomacy and talking. Is this going to change or should I just wait for ZoS(because constant FPS combat is not my idea of fun).

 

[Jaime Lannister]

Other than Megaton there are none of those.

 

[Jim Cojones]

No, you can't find a single one "big town with a lot of diplomacy and talking". Megaton is very far from having anything in common with such description.

 

[Drakron]

Actually the only "locked" location is Raven Rock Base, you can enter the Jefferson Memorial after the Enclave taken over.

I guess Vault 87 is also locked but I am unsure if we can get inside before being told to get there.

The "linearity" argument is ... look, every quest is going to have defined objectives and I do not think what happens after FATHER! is so much "on a rails" since its, escape from Jefferson Memorial, getting a GECK (and there are a few ways to get into Vault 87 and a few ways to get the GECK in there), then its Raven Rock (that is, unfortunately, no Oil Rig) and ... well the Pentagon-Jefferson Memorial bit.

For me for something to be on rails it have to be something as Raven Rock with existing only ONE path.

 

[St. Toxic]

"Challenges". Like, I don't know, sidequests. Sidequests that can be completed in a number of different ways, perhaps?

Like shooting the soldier on the left prior to shooting the one on the right, even if you could theoretically have shot the one on the right and then the one on the left, and leaving the room through the window or through the door.

I also don't think Fallout 3 is by any definition a linear game, unless you desperately twist the definition of "linear game" to mean "only the main plot thread is linear."

Only the ... counts. ... are irrelevant. You know why? Because if we include... then 99% of games are ... and your definition becomes useless because it fails to define anything.

It's almost like you guys have been listening to me all along!

Why? Did you say "Give up, it's pointless. He won't get it for a 100 years."? Because I could probably have used some of that wisdom a few pages back.

I don't think there IS any ONE definition of what a non-linear game is. For me, gobble gobble gobble gobble, honk honk honk.

For me pedophilia is a form of community service, and there's no denying that, because obviously not everyone can agree on just ONE definition, as I clearly just defined it as something else. Now to see if it holds up in court.

Unlike you I don't really care who thinks what.

Oh yes you do. In fact, it's one of the biggest cares in your life.

I haven't read these FO 3 threads but I have a question. I'm currently looking for vault 112 and I'm getting sick of constantly fighting. Rivet city had only a few weak quests. I want a big town with a lot of diplomacy and talking. Is this going to change or should I just wait for ZoS(because constant FPS combat is not my idea of fun).

I think you're playing the wrong game.

For me for something to be on rails it have to be something as Raven Rock with existing only ONE path.

Stay tuned for the billionth explanation of non-linearity.

 

[Texas Red]

So Megaton is the biggest city?

 

[Drakron]

Stay tuned for the billionth explanation of non-linearity.

Narrative structure
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Narrative structure is generally described as the structural framework that underlies the order and manner in which a narrative is presented to a reader, listener, or viewer.

Theorists describing a text's narrative structure might refer to structural elements such as an introduction, in which the story's founding characters and circumstances are described; a chorus, which uses the voice of an onlooker to describe the events or indicate the proper emotional response to what has just happened; or a coda, which falls at the end of a narrative and makes concluding remarks. First described by such ancient Greek philosophers as Aristotle and Plato, the notion of narrative structure saw renewed popularity as a critical concept in the mid- to late-twentieth century, when structuralist literary theorists including Roland Barthes, Vladimir Propp, Joseph Campbell and Northrop Frye attempted to argue that all human narratives have certain universal, deep structural elements in common. This argument fell out of fashion when advocates of poststructuralism such as Michel Foucault and Jacques Derrida asserted that such universally shared deep structures were logically impossible.

Northrop Frye in his Anatomy of Criticism deals extensively with what he calls myths of Spring, Summer, Fall, and Winter.

* Spring myths are comedies, i.e., stories that lead from bad situations to happy endings. Shakespeare's Twelfth Night is such a story.
* Summer myths are similarly utopian fantasies such as Dante's Paradiso.
* Fall myths are tragedies that lead from ideal situations to disaster. Compare Hamlet, Othello, and King Lear and the movie Legends of the Fall.
* And finally Winter myths are dystopias, for example George Orwell's 1984 or Aldous Huxley's Brave New World or Ayn Rand's novella Anthem .

Hollywood scriptwriters, television soap opera writers and indeed Shakespeare himself pay great attention to issues of structure.

[edit] Linear and non-linear narrative structures

A non-linear narrative is one that does not proceed in a straight-line, step-by-step fashion, such as where an author creates a story's ending before the middle is finished.[1] Linear is the opposite, when narrative runs smoothly in a straight line, when it is not broken up.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Unlike you I don't really care who thinks what.

Oh yes you do. In fact, it's one of the biggest cares in your life.

I can't hide anything from you, can I?

 

[DefJam101]

As I lay dying on the ground, watching my blood pool out from the holes in my chest, my life flashed before my eyes. How did I get here? Why did things turn out like this?

It all started back in the vault, when my father told me I was 'SPECIAL'...