Development Info InXile consults academics to create Wasteland authenticity

[Jaesun]

I'm sorry I was going to add you Alex.

 

[Alex]

I'm sorry I was going to add you Alex.

Don't worry, Jaesun, it was only a joke.

By the way, where is the poster from.

 

[Excommunicator]

so...knowledge coming from an uneducated person studying scientific research and historic data is good but--- bringing in experts is bad?

You hit upon it right here hiver.

1. It isn't an uneducated person. A decent designer always has a good general knowledge and the ability to grow it continually
2. That person is a game designer also working on how the game must play and how it all comes together, including non-science stuff. Nothing is in isolation in game design

An expert typically knows only their field. Their field is paramount to them and they take pride in it. They are hired as specialists in their field and may or may not have any understanding of how game design needs to be conducted. There is a very high likelihood that they will absolutely not see when something which isn't scientifically viable is better for the game than something which happens to be scientifically exact and viable. If they can't work this out, you need to ask yourself: are they in the position to insist on or suggest certain ideas for the game?

What it ultimately comes down to is the expertise of the person in control. If the person with the final word is knowledgeable and a good designer, a consultant is going to be somewhere between helpful and irrelevant. If the person in control is not, the consultant can be anywhere between very useful and very damaging. The thing is, if you aren't a good designer in the first place you simply won't know when something is going to contribute to or damage the final product so having a consultant isn't going to magically solve that problem for you.



Interesting fact: the people arguing against the consultants are primarily game designers. The people arguing in favour of them are primarily scientists. Go figure

 

[hiver]

Thats retarded even more than bullshit VD is spouting. Its basically the same - but put into an even more retarded, stupid manner.

Youre repeating, like some insane parot - "something which isn't scientifically viable is better for the game than something which happens to be scientifically exact and viable".
And this makes you a RETARD!

Because its only VD that invented that shit about scientists HAVING TO INVENT AND INCLUDE ONLY COMPLETELY WORKING ABSOLUTELY REALISTIC SCIENCE OR TECHNOLOGY OR CONCEPTS. YOU FUCKING IDIOT!

If they can't work this out, you need to ask yourself: are they in the position to insist on or suggest certain ideas for the game?

YES! THEY WILL TAKE THE FUCKING CONTROL OVER THE GAME AND DESIGN IT THEMSELVES!

If the person with the final word is knowledgeable and a good designer, a consultant is going to be somewhere between helpful and irrelevant.

YES YOU STUPID SHIT - AS IT IS PROVEN EVERY TIME ANOTHER FANTASTIC GAME IS RELEASED! WHO THE FUCK NEED SCIENTIST!?!?!? HAVE A FATMAN BECAUSE IT LOOKS COOL YOU MORON!

Interesting fact - the people who argue against science are MORONS!

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

hi/v/er

I laughed at that.

 

[Excommunicator]

*electrons firing between pieces of shrapnel trying to form thoughts*

Worst poster on the Codex

 

[Haba]

LEAVE HIVER ALONE!

 

[trais]

We know when (as in: on which stage of our evolutionary development level, on timescale we can only ballpark that with better or worse accuracy, depending available fossils) our genus differentiated from tarsiers, monkeys, gibons, orangutans, gorrilas and chimps, in that order. And thanks to molecular biology we have evidence to prove that. So let me say this once again:
There are no missing links in human evolution. If anyone in AD 2012 genuinely believes they still exist, then they have either wide gaps in their education or they don't understand what the term "missing link" mean. Tertium non datur.
What is left to discover is minor details, like whether we started walking on two legs 4 or 6 million years ago.

Some people - including this science correspondent - seem to use it as a shorthand for previously undiscovered transitional fossils:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/evolution/7550033/Missing-link-between-man-and-apes-found.html

Would I personally use that term? No. But I think it's far less offensive than saying that human evolution was solved in 1980.

When all had was fossils, we already had some clever ideas, but had no solid evidence. Only with discoveries of new techniques like DNA sequencing (1977) and PCR (1983) we were able to prove certain critical hypotheses. Therefore I used word "solved", as in: nobody could say it was "just a theory" .

Can you tell me the difference between homo neanderthalensis and homo sapiens neanderthalensis?

There's none. If you consider neandertals a sub-species of homo sapiens, then you call them Homo sapiens neanderthalsis; if you consider them a different species then you call them Homo neanderthalsis.
What's the point of this,

Oh, I don't know...

Dude, listen. Difference between Homo neanderthalensis and Homo sapiens it's like a difference between gray wolf and jackal.
...
Yes, they are different.

Moving on...

Oh boy. Ok, I'm gonna waste some more time and explain how this works for you. Try to focus. Taxonomy 101:

Grey wolf are the common name of species called Canis lupus. Golden jackals, also know as Gold-wolfs, are called Canis aureus. Word Canis is the same in both, because they come from the same genus. But they are different species, therefore one is lupus, other is aureus. There is also another level of division - subspiecies. For example, gray wolf have subspecies like: Canis lupus lupus, Canis lupus pallipes, Canis lupus chanco.
BUT if you'd want to argue that golden jackals are actually subspecies of grey wolfs, then you would then call them Canis lupus aureus. In this case, Canis is the name of the genus, lupus is the name of the species and aureus would be the name of subspecies. You could also argue the other way around - that grey wolfs are subspecies of golden jackals - then you would call them Canis aureus lupus.

And so, Homo is the name of genus, sapiens and neanderthalsis are then names of species. Some people consider neandertals to be subspecies of Homo sapiens, so they call them homo sapiens neanderthalsis. Others don't, they consider them different species, therefore Homo neanderthalsis. But both names have same referent, therefore there are no biological differences between this two.

Do you understand now?

No, you don't need to ask a scientist to realize that "missing link" isn't a scientific term. If you look up the term, you'll see that immediately.

Now, it's "historical" term, like "aether" in physics. Yes, people often misuse it, but it doesn't mean it's not a mistake.

 

[Jaesun]

I'm sorry I was going to add you Alex.

Don't worry, Jaesun, it was only a joke.

By the way, where is the poster from.

I blatantly ripped off evdk's Obsidian forum photoshop from here.

 

[almondblight]

When all had was fossils, we already had some clever ideas, but had no solid evidence. Only with discoveries of new techniques like DNA sequencing (1977) and PCR (1983) we were able to prove certain critical hypotheses. Therefore I used word "solved", as in: nobody could say it was "just a theory" .

Uh, there was plenty of solid evidence before 1980 (or 1977 if you want). Saying "all had was fossils [sic]" is just silly, and seems to indicate a poor understanding of science.

Do you understand now?

Yes, do you? You can't say that a subspecies is different from a species. Would talking about the difference between the Canus Lupus and the Indian Wolf make sense? Seriously, this isn't that complicated.

Now, it's "historical" term, like "aether" in physics. Yes, people often misuse it, but it doesn't mean it's not a mistake.

It's a popular term that has often been used to refer to transitional fossils, and is still used that way today. The mistake is that it implies that there's a single missing transitional fossil in our ancestry. But then saying that evolution has been solved ca. 1980 also implies many things that are clearly wrong, many more than "missing link."

 

[hiver]

One of the funniest things on codex is when retards get all butthurt over getting answers formatted in the way they actually deserve.
"wwaaaahh i want nice answers to my stupid shit!"

And when you give them a nice, factual and thought out answer then they just skip it, maybe take one sentence out of the context and go on another retarded diatribe about it, full of stupid shit and nonsense that they just invented.
Of course being morons in the first place they are incapable to see their own posts as anything other than right and correct.

For example, excomunicator up there says:

1. It isn't an uneducated person.

so a game designer is an educated scientist then?

A decent designer always has a good general knowledge and the ability to grow it continually

What the fuck does this even mean? Is this supported by games that keep being released?
Are FO3 and ass effect the examples of these super-duper knowledgeable designers?

An expert typically knows only their field.

Really? and this is based on fucking what? How the fuck do you know this?
And does it mean then that a game designer is capable of having this fabled superb general knowledge but a scientist isnt and is constrained to one discipline?

They are hired as specialists in their field and may or may not have any understanding of how game design needs to be conducted.

may? so they may?
and i guess they are working in a pure vacuum... there is no devs around them, right?

but then:

There is a very high likelihood that they will absolutely not see when something...

A very high likelihood? Based on what logic and data other than nonsense your rectum keeps splurging?


His entire post is contrived turd, based on lack of knowledge and actual facts or ability to understand reality.
He just invents stupid nonsensical shit (that seemingly supports his angle to it - which is the reason why those fallacies are there in the first place) - and then jumps to incredible conclusions all of course confirming his starting moronic and factually wrong stupid idea.
Therefore - he is a complete retard and a moron.

 

[Redlands]

But it's not inspired by real science. Going with your XCOM example, sectoids are inspired not by scientific theories on life outside of our universe, but on alien pulp-fiction and tabloids. The autopsy report isn't inspired by science, it's a common staple and the text itself doesn't look like a real report, even remotely. Yet it works because it tells the player something cool about the alien races.

But let's say that Microprose was smart enough to invite real scientists. What would have happened? What would a real scientist do with scientifically absurd (but looking distinctive and cool in isometric) things like:

Uh, are any of these things scientifically absurd? Do you know they are or are you just making this up?

I don't mind you arguing about whether consulting scientists is a waste of resources (which it may be), or will infringe on lore or whatever but you don't need to make stupid claims that just undermine your argument.

I mean, FFS the mutons are basically purple men in a green scuba suit. Not sure how this could be argued as scientifically absurd based solely on its appearance (which seems to be what you're going by); maybe unproven or speculative, but not absurd. It's not like a perpetual motion machine or something like that.

 

[hiver]

LEAVE HIVER ALONE!

what the fuck are you on about habster?

 

[sser]

What the hell?!

This is Wasteleand we are talking about here, which was built on top of Gamma World! The point is not to be realistic, it is to be as fucking absurd as you can. Even in Fallout this wouldn't fit that well, as the 50s theme was much more important than the things happening there being plausible. ..
Not about hard science fiction.

Pretty much. We want to see some crazy shit out there, not what's scientifically "possibly" possible. And the comment about Oblivion is spot-on. Nobody gives a fuck about such things in games. Not about soil erosion, not about alien languages in Mass Effect that Bio paid some linguists to develop (what a waste of money that was), not about real star data in that recently announced KS.

Considering that "paying consultants to make a realistic gameworld" was not one of the stretch goals, it would have been real nice if Fargo asked the fans if that was a good idea. You can take a man out of the mainstream business, but you can't take the mainstream business out of him.

Game companies hire consultants as a form of marketing in and of itself. You don't need higher education to write science fiction or create post-apocalyptic worlds or make up a new language. Honestly, I think this was a fairly cynical thing for Fargo to do.

 

[Haba]

LEAVE HIVER ALONE!

what the fuck are you on about habster?

I am trying to white knight you and am failing miserably :foreveralone:

 

[felipepepe]

LEAVE HIVER ALONE!

what the fuck are you on about habster?

I am trying to white knight you and am failing miserably :foreveralone:

Defending Hiver is more like Black Knighting...

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

Defending Hiver is more like Brown Knighting...

Fixed.

 

[Harg Harfardarssen]

Well... remember when I told you that I served as a hoplite in my youth? I lied.

You son of a bitch. I pre-ordered almost entirely to support our Veterans of Anachronistic Wars.

 

[hiver]

LEAVE HIVER ALONE!

what the fuck are you on about habster?

I am trying to white knight you and am failing miserably :foreveralone:

 

[Vault Dweller]

But it's not inspired by real science. Going with your XCOM example, sectoids are inspired not by scientific theories on life outside of our universe, but on alien pulp-fiction and tabloids. The autopsy report isn't inspired by science, it's a common staple and the text itself doesn't look like a real report, even remotely. Yet it works because it tells the player something cool about the alien races.

But let's say that Microprose was smart enough to invite real scientists. What would have happened? What would a real scientist do with scientifically absurd (but looking distinctive and cool in isometric) things like:

Uh, are any of these things scientifically absurd? Do you know they are or are you just making this up?

I don't mind you arguing about whether consulting scientists is a waste of resources (which it may be), or will infringe on lore or whatever but you don't need to make stupid claims that just undermine your argument.

I mean, FFS the mutons are basically purple men in a green scuba suit. Not sure how this could be argued as scientifically absurd based solely on its appearance (which seems to be what you're going by); maybe unproven or speculative, but not absurd. It's not like a perpetual motion machine or something like that.

Ok. Left to right:
- A legless dude on a pogo stick with an exposed midriff for easy maintenance; has horns and a pretty cape
- a bucktooth yuan-ti
- a ghost wearing mom's curtains (skinny humanoid under it)
- a green spandex superhero

I'm not an expert on aliens and I know as much about marine biology as George Constanza, but it's highly unlikely that the alien invaders will be spandex-sporting humanoids that look extremely similar to humans (unlike the "little grey men", for example)? Or that they will be snake with arms? Or floating cape crusaders pogo dudes on life support.

The problem with "basically purple men" is that they are aliens from another planet with different biochemistry, evolution, and morphology and it's unlikely that life there followed exactly the same step as life on earth: formed from the same six elements and resulted in exactly the same body shape, but with a bestial face (visible on the intro) and different skin color for some reason.

Another issue is the biodiversity - you have vastly different creatures, from humanoid to insectoids and snakemen, floating disks and floating venom-spitting "kidneys". It makes absolutely no sense as far as realism is concerned, but it makes perfect "game design" sense. You need:

- visual variety
- distinctive appearance
- progressively harder challenges
- enemies with very different abilities

So, there you go, game design vs realism.

 

[General Maxson]

LEAVE HIVER ALONE!

what the fuck are you on about habster?

I am trying to white knight you and am failing miserably :foreveralone:

What movie is this from? Is it any good?

 

[Vault Dweller]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremiah_Johnson_(film)

 

[trais]

Do you understand now?

Yes, do you? You can't say that a subspecies is different from a species. Would talking about the difference between the Canus Lupus and the Indian Wolf make sense? Seriously, this isn't that complicated.

Even fucking wikipedia has it spelled out at the beginning of second paragraph, with citation attached.

Neanderthals are classified alternatively as a subspecies of Homo sapiens (Homo sapiens neanderthalensis) or as a separate human species (Homo neanderthalensis).

Even wikipedia that's more suited for retards like you has it as a 7th sentence.

Neanderthals are either classified as a subspecies of modern humans (Homo sapiens neanderthalensis) or as a separate human species (Homo neanderthalensis).

But you're too fucking dumb too get that one type of organisms has two classifications because people can't agree which one is more correct.

There's no point in discussing this (or any) topic with you because you're unable to grasp even simple ideas. I'm done here.

 

[Jaesun]

Obsidian just posted a new update (just quoting the relevant part):

Update #29 - Creating rich and detailed Fantasy Worlds with Thwacke

When creating a new Fantasy world from scratch on Project Eternity, we decided to work with industry leaders Thwacke, who help video game developers use science as a means to explain and help develop a rich, immersive and believable Fantasy setting. They also have a linguistics division that will allow us to have a specific dialect for ever race in the World. Working with Thwacke we can create a world that just makes sense. From soil erosion, to plate tectonics to green house gasses as well as effects from a disastrous hurricane. How would these societies recover from such catastrophe? How would they evolve? With Thwacke's help we can delve deeply into such mechanics....

Problem Vault Dweller, hi/v/er, Alex, Monocause?

 

[TwinkieGorilla]

Oh great. Here come 20 more pages of shit.