Interesting post on ESF about Daggerfall.

[Lumpy]

What has been done?

Everything about Oblivion ? And Morrowind before that, but to a much lesser degree, of course.

They made a game some of us don't like. Most of you expected not to like it from the beginning. Screaming and spitting is not gonna convince anyone, it's useless. Conversation may be useless too, but it is a darn sight more pleasant, and at least potentially useful. I don't believe in lynching, I leave that to the RPG-Klux-Klan.

That some of us like and some of don't like what they've done is irrelevant regarding F3. Is Oblivion a good game on its own, regardless of marketing hype and expectations? For some of us, it is and for some of us, it's not. No problem there. Is Oblivion the cutting edge CRPG? Does it fullfill RPGamers' expectations as an RPG game and nothing else (not as an arcade game, not as an exploration sim etc.)? Hell no. But, didn't Bethesda promote the game as the next big shit in CRPGaming? And doesn't the devs' attitudes and words show that they really believe in that crap? Yes and yes.

Now, which category does original Fallout series fall into? I had some expectations for Oblivion, but not too high. I was just expecting a decent Action-RPG game. I behaved myself until I got to experience it for myself. So F3 may turn out to be a decent game on its own, just like Oblivion. But it won't be anything resembling the original series, or anything even resembling a decent RPG, just like Oblivion.

Conclusion? Beth shouldn't ever fucking dare call F3 an RPG, or a successor to the original series and claim picking it up where original series left. They may, however, call it a successor to Tactics or BoS. However, we do know that they will do the former, but people (fans of the original series) don't just want a FO imitation with the name tag on it. So, need I explain more?

Yes.
Although you may argue Oblivion has been dumbed down, it is still the same style of RPG as Daggerfall and Morrowind. Yes, Oblivion is nothing like a true RPG, because TES never was.
So I doubt Fallout 3 will be an Oblivion clone. Maybe it will be a dumbed down Fallout game, but it will most likely still be a Fallout-like game.

 

[LlamaGod]

Maybe it will be a dumbed down Fallout game, but it will most likely still be a Fallout-like game.

The problem with this is, if you dont go deep enough into being Fallout you're just gonna be similiar to other post-apocalypse games.

What makes 'Fallout-like' different from 'Wasteland-like'?

When it comes down to that, why bother even calling it Fallout to begin with?

 

[bryce777]

What has been done?

Everything about Oblivion ? And Morrowind before that, but to a much lesser degree, of course.

They made a game some of us don't like. Most of you expected not to like it from the beginning. Screaming and spitting is not gonna convince anyone, it's useless. Conversation may be useless too, but it is a darn sight more pleasant, and at least potentially useful. I don't believe in lynching, I leave that to the RPG-Klux-Klan.

That some of us like and some of don't like what they've done is irrelevant regarding F3. Is Oblivion a good game on its own, regardless of marketing hype and expectations? For some of us, it is and for some of us, it's not. No problem there. Is Oblivion the cutting edge CRPG? Does it fullfill RPGamers' expectations as an RPG game and nothing else (not as an arcade game, not as an exploration sim etc.)? Hell no. But, didn't Bethesda promote the game as the next big shit in CRPGaming? And doesn't the devs' attitudes and words show that they really believe in that crap? Yes and yes.

Now, which category does original Fallout series fall into? I had some expectations for Oblivion, but not too high. I was just expecting a decent Action-RPG game. I behaved myself until I got to experience it for myself. So F3 may turn out to be a decent game on its own, just like Oblivion. But it won't be anything resembling the original series, or anything even resembling a decent RPG, just like Oblivion.

Conclusion? Beth shouldn't ever fucking dare call F3 an RPG, or a successor to the original series and claim picking it up where original series left. They may, however, call it a successor to Tactics or BoS. However, we do know that they will do the former, but people (fans of the original series) don't just want a FO imitation with the name tag on it. So, need I explain more?

Yes.
Although you may argue Oblivion has been dumbed down, it is still the same style of RPG as Daggerfall and Morrowind. Yes, Oblivion is nothing like a true RPG, because TES never was.
So I doubt Fallout 3 will be an Oblivion clone. Maybe it will be a dumbed down Fallout game, but it will most likely still be a Fallout-like game.

They have already said it will be first person single player and set in a very small area. IE oblivion with guns.

 

[Lumpy]

What has been done?

Everything about Oblivion ? And Morrowind before that, but to a much lesser degree, of course.

They made a game some of us don't like. Most of you expected not to like it from the beginning. Screaming and spitting is not gonna convince anyone, it's useless. Conversation may be useless too, but it is a darn sight more pleasant, and at least potentially useful. I don't believe in lynching, I leave that to the RPG-Klux-Klan.

That some of us like and some of don't like what they've done is irrelevant regarding F3. Is Oblivion a good game on its own, regardless of marketing hype and expectations? For some of us, it is and for some of us, it's not. No problem there. Is Oblivion the cutting edge CRPG? Does it fullfill RPGamers' expectations as an RPG game and nothing else (not as an arcade game, not as an exploration sim etc.)? Hell no. But, didn't Bethesda promote the game as the next big shit in CRPGaming? And doesn't the devs' attitudes and words show that they really believe in that crap? Yes and yes.

Now, which category does original Fallout series fall into? I had some expectations for Oblivion, but not too high. I was just expecting a decent Action-RPG game. I behaved myself until I got to experience it for myself. So F3 may turn out to be a decent game on its own, just like Oblivion. But it won't be anything resembling the original series, or anything even resembling a decent RPG, just like Oblivion.

Conclusion? Beth shouldn't ever fucking dare call F3 an RPG, or a successor to the original series and claim picking it up where original series left. They may, however, call it a successor to Tactics or BoS. However, we do know that they will do the former, but people (fans of the original series) don't just want a FO imitation with the name tag on it. So, need I explain more?

Yes.
Although you may argue Oblivion has been dumbed down, it is still the same style of RPG as Daggerfall and Morrowind. Yes, Oblivion is nothing like a true RPG, because TES never was.
So I doubt Fallout 3 will be an Oblivion clone. Maybe it will be a dumbed down Fallout game, but it will most likely still be a Fallout-like game.

They have already said it will be first person single player and set in a very small area. IE oblivion with guns.

Yeah? Where?
If such a thing was said, it could be found in the NMA F3 FAQ, and it isn't.
http://www.nma-fallout.com/content.php?page=fo3-faq
About viewpoint, Pete seems to indicate that it will be first person, while Todd doesn't say anything. Nothing certain was said though.

 

[Vault Dweller]

From GameInformer:

"The post-apoc theme (with tongue in cheek humor) of the series is still present, with your character having spent the first 20 years of his life living underground. Because of this, his eyes are unaccustomed to the light of day, thus players will have to train their eyes away from light sensitivity by using a special pair of goggles. Todd Howard claims that Fallout 3 will be one of the most original and violent titles ever and will be set in a familiar US city."

 

[Lumpy]

From GameInformer:

"The post-apoc theme (with tongue in cheek humor) of the series is still present, with your character having spent the first 20 years of his life living underground. Because of this, his eyes are unaccustomed to the light of day, thus players will have to train their eyes away from light sensitivity by using a special pair of goggles. Todd Howard claims that Fallout 3 will be one of the most original and violent titles ever and will be set in a familiar US city."

So? How exactly does this indicate FP?
For all we know, there could simply be a Goggles item, which when unequipped during sunlight, permanently hurts Perception by 4.

 

[Vault Dweller]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_Razor

Of two equivalent theories or explanations, all other things being equal, the simpler one is to be preferred.

 

[Naked_Lunch]

So? How exactly does this indicate FP? For all we know, there could simply be a Goggles item, which when unequipped during sunlight, permanently hurts Perception by 4.

"<We're> not going to suddenly do a top-down isometric Baldur's Gate-style game, because that's not what we do well" ~ Pete Hines

Todd Howard: I'd say the impact the original had in its day was about so much more then the angle you viewed it at, or how combat was executed

 

[Lumpy]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_Razor

Of two equivalent theories or explanations, all other things being equal, the simpler one is to be preferred.

The other explanation being that the game is first person, and when you take out your goggles, you see a bright flash, than everything turns black? How is this more simple/simpler?

 

[Lumpy]

So? How exactly does this indicate FP? For all we know, there could simply be a Goggles item, which when unequipped during sunlight, permanently hurts Perception by 4.

"<We're> not going to suddenly do a top-down isometric Baldur's Gate-style game, because that's not what we do well" ~ Pete Hines

Todd Howard: I'd say the impact the original had in its day was about so much more then the angle you viewed it at, or how combat was executed

Pete seems to indicate that it will be first person, while Todd doesn't say anything. Nothing certain was said though.

 

[Naked_Lunch]

Do you seriously believe that Bethesda is going to make FO3 isometric? I mean, your goggle idea about the permanent perception damage is feasible and would actually work pretty well but this is Bethesda we're talking about. Come on.

And Todd DID say something. I don't have the article with me, but you can assume he was asked about perspective. Keeping the recent FO3 shitstorm in mind, he decided to play itself and instead of outright answering it, just kinda made a subtle commentary on the games and their unfortunate future.

The other explanation being that the game is first person, and when you take out your goggles, you see a bright flash, than everything turns black? How is this more simple/simpler?

Something similiar was done in the Chronicles of Riddick, so I s'pose Bethesda will just take that and turn into another INNOVATION.

 

[Vault Dweller]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_Razor

Of two equivalent theories or explanations, all other things being equal, the simpler one is to be preferred.

The other explanation being that the game is first person, and when you take out your goggles, you see a bright flash, than everything turns black? How is this more simple/simpler?

Fits Bethesda better. That whole goggles thing and special visual effects associated with it IS what Bethesda all about. It's more likely that Beth would do a first person game focused on visuals than a stat-heavy isometric game.

 

[Lumpy]

How about first/third person, turn based? Have there been any RPGs like that, and did they work well?

 

[Naked_Lunch]

Only RPGs I can think of that are first-person turn-based games are the Wizardrys and Might and Magics. Dunno how well they sold, though I know Wiz8 didn't sell enough to keep SirTech afloat. On that note, neither did MMIX keep 3D0 alive.

 

[Lumpy]

I mean, does the system work well? I don't think viewpoint is important for Fallout, but turn based combat is. So, if a third person viewpoint doesn't conflict with turn-based, I'd prefer it to isometric.

 

[Vault Dweller]

TB works well in FP games, but Fallout 3 won't be turn-based.

First, TB doesn't sell as much as cinematic RT does, and Bethesda's design philosophy is making games that sell a lot, even if that means alienting the existing fanbase because a larger potential fanbase is somewhere out there.

Second, the newly found larger fanbase praised Oblivion for dynamic and awesome battles, while the TB audience is microscopically small in comparison. Making a TB game simply doesn't make ANY sense for Bethesda.

Third, I've had a private conversation with one of the FO3 developers. The end.

 

[Lumpy]

Third, I've had a private conversation with one of the FO3 developers. The end.

Really? Who and what about?

 

[whitemithrandir]

TB works well in FP games, but Fallout 3 won't be turn-based.

First, TB doesn't sell as much as cinematic RT does, and Bethesda's design philosophy is making games that sell a lot, even if that means alienting the existing fanbase because a larger potential fanbase is somewhere out there.

Second, the newly found larger fanbase praised Oblivion for dynamic and awesome battles, while the TB audience is microscopically small in comparison. Making a TB game simply doesn't make ANY sense for Bethesda.

Third, I've had a private conversation with one of the FO3 developers. The end.

Well, I really don't mind FO3 being a realtime FPS. I just hope it's a good FPS, where I can shoot guns and stuff, and like, roleplay.

I dunno.

But I doubt Bethsoft has the experience to make a decent, adrenaline pumping shooter, and we know their recent trackrecord with freeform RPGs. So it's doom doom doom either way you look at it.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Lumpy, I hope you understand that answering your questions would most likely lead to the dismissal of the person in question.

 

[Lumpy]

Even if it's a RT FP game, skills will probably still matter, like in Oblivion. Skills might influence Damage and Chance to hit.

 

[Vault Dweller]

That's true in theory, but it didn't work out very well in Oblivion, did it?

 

[elander_]

When it comes down to that, why bother even calling it Fallout to begin with?

Because it sells doooh? Not because the quality role-playing they are going to put in there, which is what the publisher tells them.

"<We're> not going to suddenly do a top-down isometric Baldur's Gate-style game, because that's not what we do well" ~ Pete Hines

What exactly they do well besides hype comercial games and sell lots of units to the casual gamer ???

Todd Howard: I'd say the impact the original had in its day was about so much more then the angle you viewed it at, or how combat was executed

See what i mean about TH being just a clueless yes-man. Anyone with at least one brain cell knows that SPECIAL was designed for role-playing and turn-base combat in mind and that a birds view (not even saying it has to be isometric here which it doesn't) is essential to navigate and observe the ground to know how many units the player can move which amounts to action points spent. And with less action points the palyer can't do other things like accessing inventory, reload guns, fire guns, use stimpacks, arm explosives, etc

How about first/third person, turn based? Have there been any RPGs like that, and did they work well?

It worked like crap or to be nice it was diapointing. Might and Magic and Wizardry used first person but as a consequence these games didn't have action points and were much more simple or dumbed down compared to isometric turn-base games. You can only attack once no mater what weapon or attack type you choose and move by a certain amount in each turn. Much, much more simplified.

At least they were turn-base. Now think about what is going to happen if Fallout becomes first person real time.

 

[Lumpy]

That's true in theory, but it didn't work out very well in Oblivion, did it?

Didn't it? So far I've been playing a pure mage, so I can't know.
For magic, the new system - which isn't really new, it's the Daggerfall one slightly changed - works well, except skill should also affect casting time.

 

[Lumpy]

Then, how about a free camera, or one which automatically switches from third person to top down whenever the player enters combat?
I find exploration to be much more fun in first/third person.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Chance to hit is determined by your Mouse & Keyboard skills. Damage is determined by your weapon skill, but if you always hit, the difference between 8 damage points and 12 damage points isn't that important. Enchanted weapons, as I pointed out in my review, allow you to use any weapon very effectively with no skills at all.