I wish to *know* more: 20 questions on AoD

[Jasede]

Who is the target, why is he wanted dead? What do non guild people think of him? Is he rich, influential, to which faction does he belong? What are the goals and the power of that faction? Who is my partner, is he someone I like or hate? Is he influential? How much of a stir will this killing cause, how good are the guards, do I need to plan to leave town? If so, is there business I should take care of first? Can I establish an alibi?

You are a neophyte in the assassin's guild. You DON'T NEED TO KNOW. If I was the guildmaster, I wouldn't tell you ANYTHING about this. It's NOT your job to know why to kill him, his backstory, his wealth... all you need to know is his location, if he is guarded, when his guards are around and how to best get to him. Any further questions should be met with silence, at best.

You get told what you need to know, and nothing more. It's very realistic.

 

[John Yossarian]

There are two gate guards and three merchants against seven raiders. It's not an attack against the town, it's a quick hit-n-run that relies on the element of surprise.

I see. It just seems like it would be a more credible reason if a significant part of the House's forces (which could be few if they're really weakened) had fought and still lost. Remember Rome? I doubt the gang that stole the gold thought Anthony was weak just because they were able to kill some of Vorenus's men and get away. Had there been no retaliation, or had romans been manipulated by one of Anthony's enemies, then maybe they would think that, so in your quest I hope the PC has to do something more (hopefully involving diplomacy and convincing top guys) to make the other Houses believe that House Daratan really is too weak to fight back and protect the town.

It's only the first step - establishing the pretext for further actions (quests).

That sounds nice. Something like it is what I wished Arcanum's Tarant-Caladon negotiations had been, several back and forths of convincing swing voters and eliminating oppositions.

 

[GhanBuriGhan]

Who is the target, why is he wanted dead? What do non guild people think of him? Is he rich, influential, to which faction does he belong? What are the goals and the power of that faction? Who is my partner, is he someone I like or hate? Is he influential? How much of a stir will this killing cause, how good are the guards, do I need to plan to leave town? If so, is there business I should take care of first? Can I establish an alibi?

You are a neophyte in the assassin's guild. You DON'T NEED TO KNOW. If I was the guildmaster, I wouldn't tell you ANYTHING about this. It's NOT your job to know why to kill him, his backstory, his wealth... all you need to know is his location, if he is guarded, when his guards are around and how to best get to him. Any further questions should be met with silence, at best.

You get told what you need to know, and nothing more. It's very realistic.

It's realistic that the guild doesn't tell me. That doesn't mean all characters I might want to play would accept that. Let me ask the wrong question and kill me - awesome! Or let me find out that noone will give me the information I need - fine! Or let me be a good assassin and accept the offer to quickforward to the task - wonderful. Or let me be a good asassin and show up in time on my own (since there is no time, use a proxy - minus 10 minutes for each conversation, text warnings for player orientation. Or make it a text adventure. Just let me fucking roleplay it, isn't that the whole point?

 

[Roqua]

So, what the descriptions should be like. I think that Snatch had the best descriptions ever (sadly I lack the writing skills to come close), but they were also very revealing and omnipotent. It was a great way to introduce the characters though:

That's Doug The Head. Everybody knows Doug The Head.
If it's stones and it's stolen, he's the man to speak to.
Pretends he's Jewish.
Wishes he was Jewish.
Even tells his family they're Jewish...
... but he's about as Jewish as he is a fucking monkey.
He thinks it's good for business. And in the diamond business...
...it is good for business.

Boris The Blade, or Boris The Bullet-Dodger.
Bent as the Soviet sickle and hard as the hammer that crosses it.
Apparently, it's just impossible to kill the bastard.

Those are entertaining descriptions, but maybe not great for an rpg in my opinion. I can see why a little extra information would be necessary to build character and maybe account for small descriptions the character would pick up in normal gossip. My answer would probably not be feasible. But it would be neat to have a image-only description, and have a bunch of extra information revealed through checks. Checks are peered with logical combinations. example:

When you talk to a warrior type guy, you have a perception + (some sort of combat trait weighted) added together and checked against the level of difficulty of the information to be gathered. That way a person with a high perception and low (combat skill weighted) has the same chance as a person with a low per and a high (weighted combat skill).

Talk to someone who seems a little fishy, perception + streetwise, (you notice his movements seem very agile, but he's trying to hide it, blah blah blah) talking to someone from a noble house, per + etiquette, (you notice that he seems like he is faking he is high class and belongs, but his manner speaks of a lower birth raised to higher office, blah blah). As a couple of quick and poor examples.

If nothing peers up, default to perc + int or something like that. That way, you get the extra insight on different characters with different builds, or miss out on insights with certain builds. It brings it to a more roleplaying focus, adds to replay value, and neat and entertaining descriptions. It makes stats and skills more important, and everyone wins.

Deep down inside the farm boy he once was wanted the long deserved rest, but the Bull was a soldier and lived to fight.

Perc + (weighted combat skill) check passes- "You notice he seems tired, like he longs for a peaceful life on a farm. But you also see the fire of a soldier burning in his eyes and would bet anything on the fact this man will stand and die in battle long before his hands ever come close to touching a plow in peacetime again."

cado:

Cado has been a thief ever since he could remember. Unlike many people who thought that stealing was a quick and easy way to make money, Cado believed that stealing was a job, much like guarding or trading, and like any job it required a lot of time and efforts, rewarding hard work and dedication. Running a thieves guild in a small town was a difficult and dangerous occupation, and the guild was hit hard more than a few times in the past. A few years ago a guildmaster was nailed to the guild's door, and Cado, who was next in line, had reluctantly accepted the duties and carefully navigated local waters without attracting too much attention to the guild.

This is a good example since its 100% info the pc would have to be told.

Perc+ (weighted stealing, traps, and lockpicking?) passes= "You sense that unlike many people who think that stealing is a quick and easy way to make money, Cado believes that stealing is a job, much like guarding or trading, and like any job it required a lot of time and efforts, rewarding hard work and dedication. His devotion to the thieving arts radiates off of him like a priest to his god."

Maybe use streetwise as a rumor gathering skill as well? example:
perc + streetwise passes: " You heard that a few years ago a guildmaster was nailed to the guild's door, and Cado, who was next in line, had reluctantly accepted the duties and carefully navigated local waters without attracting too much attention to the guild." Or instead of rumor gathering and streetwise, you use perc+ faction to know things only guild members would know or info they would be privy to.

Apparently, it's just impossible to kill the bastard.

perc + (weighted crit strike) passes. "You notice Boris is littered with scars. Scars in areas that usually don't scar because it results in fatal wounds. Apparently, it's impossible to kill this bastard."

Perc + trading passes: " He thinks [faking he is a Jew is] good for business. And in the diamond business...it is good for business." etc, etc, you get what my poor examples are getting at.

Obviously, this would be neat, but is far from needed, and if delays release I am 100% against it. It wouldn't add value to anything enough to justify a delay in release.

 

[Roqua]

Who is the target, why is he wanted dead? What do non guild people think of him? Is he rich, influential, to which faction does he belong? What are the goals and the power of that faction? Who is my partner, is he someone I like or hate? Is he influential? How much of a stir will this killing cause, how good are the guards, do I need to plan to leave town? If so, is there business I should take care of first? Can I establish an alibi?

You are a neophyte in the assassin's guild. You DON'T NEED TO KNOW. If I was the guildmaster, I wouldn't tell you ANYTHING about this. It's NOT your job to know why to kill him, his backstory, his wealth... all you need to know is his location, if he is guarded, when his guards are around and how to best get to him. Any further questions should be met with silence, at best.

You get told what you need to know, and nothing more. It's very realistic.

It's realistic that the guild doesn't tell me. That doesn't mean all characters I might want to play would accept that. Let me ask the wrong question and kill me - awesome! Or let me find out that noone will give me the information I need - fine! Or let me be a good assassin and accept the offer to quickforward to the task - wonderful. Or let me be a good asassin and show up in time on my own (since there is no time, use a proxy - minus 10 minutes for each conversation, text warnings for player orientation. Or make it a text adventure. Just let me fucking roleplay it, isn't that the whole point?

I understand what you are saying, and it makes sense, an extra maybe dialogue snippet saying, "Once he finished explaining the task, you realize that this offer is really an order, and if you don't accept, you probably won't make it out alive." I really don't think being allowed to leave dialogue, ask around the room, and getting generic "You can't leave! Take the mission or else!" would add much roleplay value. Everyone, but the most blind and retarded would be able to pick up on the real situation. Everyone I know, and I know some retards, would know what’s going down if put in that situation. Of course, if we want to roleplay a big blind, dunce retard, we should have that option, but is the extra programming and dialogue necessary in this situation? I don't think so.


I do get your point and primarily agree with it though.

 

[John Yossarian]

VD, when you are told about this assassination mission, are you told the time, place and target before you accept (I hope not, shit I hope you're not even told the mission involves killing)? If you're not, then they could tell you before you accept that you will be immediately taken to the place.
In other quests, where there's no danger of you running your mouth off, or where people trust you a lot, you could make it an option. I assume when there's relevant information to be gathered, you won't teleport the player before they have a chance to get it, and fudging with time gets annoying if you're never in danger of being late unless you're dicking around, and buying equipment is not that intersitng roleplaying wise, so I won't mind if it stays as is.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Why do you want to decide that for me if you don't have to?

You have a point there.

And anyway, if you think walking around locations is not fun, shouldn't you rather strive to make it more fun than beaming me around?

More fun how?

But does it have to be made so blatantly obvious to the player by transporting him to the target where there is only those two choices?

There are more choices there. I think the screens illustrate that.

If your game makes me feel like I'm in the army I will want my money back.

The assassins guild is an ex-army unit. It's also a business-like establishment, not a place where you get training and ranks. This assassination is an important order from an important client. Do you expect simply to be told "hey, go kill this guy and make sure that he's, like, dead"? The guildmaster planned the attack and made all the arrangements. You are not even the main shooter. You are the backup, basically.

Who is the target, why is he wanted dead? What do non guild people think of him? Is he rich, influential, to which faction does he belong? What are the goals and the power of that faction? Who is my partner, is he someone I like or hate? Is he influential? How much of a stir will this killing cause, how good are the guards, do I need to plan to leave town? If so, is there business I should take care of first? Can I establish an alibi?

I gave you the link to the article. The screens answer most of these questions. Anyway, here is a copy:

Neleos, the guildmaster: Are you good with a crossbow?

No.
Are you sure you are in the right line of work? No matter, you can't miss from a few steps away, and crossbow is an easy weapon to handle. Does all the work for you. Talk to Agatai before you leave, he will give a few tips.

Yes.
Excellent. We've got a new contract. Not your usual "kill my pa, so I can inherit the farm" contract, but something that our guild used to do during the Empire days. Tonight we'll take out Imperial Guards Commander Marcus Carrinas, better known as the Bull. It's a two-men job and the pay is 1,500 each.

Now listen carefully. The Bull has been very active lately. Something is definitely up, so a decision has been made to "retire" him and leave the Imperial Guards' affairs to a less capable commander. He is meeting two guests at the inn tonight. A room next to the one where the meeting will take place has been rented by a merchants who will be unavoidably delayed. Several small holes - big enough for a crossbow bolt to go through - have been drilled through the wall connecting both rooms. Kill Carrinas and leave quietly, before the guards realize what happened.

It's a very delicate matter, so you can't leave the guild until it's time to go. I have everything you need right here: the key to the room, two crossbows, ten armor-piercing steel bolts, merchant robes, and some rope - I wouldn't recommend using the stairs after, so use the window. Any questions?

1. What happens after? Won't the Imperial Guards come after us?
An assassin is an instrument, nothing more. Everyone understands that it's our clients who kill...

2. [Disguise] Tell me about the merchant who rented the room. Name, trade, everything.
*Neleos raises an eyebrow, but sais nothing and starts going through his notes* Manius Cotta, originally from Atrion...

3. Count me out.
Alright. You can sit this one out then. ...

3. No.
Good. Dias, you are in charge. Make sure that everything goes smoothly. ...

* wait untill it's dark and go to the inn. (taken to the room at the inn automatically)

The room is almost dark. Rays of light coming from another room identify two holes. Dias points at the crossbow and the holes. It's time.

You look through the hole and recognize Carrinas instantly. You don't have a perfect shot, but you doubt that you'd miss that close, and you are pretty sure that Dias won't. The Bull is as good as dead now, which means ... a lot of things. Time to make a decision.

1. Wait for Dias' sign and shoot Commander Carrinas.
2. Put a bolt through Dias' eye instead. It's time to introduce yourself to Commander Carrinas.
....
Does that answer your questions? Dias is a "senior assassin", he's introduced in the first AG quest.

 

[Claw]

Only you can't decide what's fun for me and what isn't. I don't mind that you give the option, but it should be up to me. Because the way you described it you ARE railroading me, no matter your intentions. I absolutely hate it when games take over decision like that for me if there isn't an ingame reason for it.

Ah, nonsense. I'm sorry, but this reminds me altogether too much of Beth fanboys saying Oblivion were super non-linear because they can like, do all quests in any order they like and totally ignore the main (or any) quest for as long as they like.
I do understand what you're getting at, but the truth is that usually your only true choices are
a) wandering around doing stuff completely unrelated to the quest, knowing that it'll be waiting for you forever because this is a game and
b) just going where you need to go and doing the bloody quest.

That's all it amounts to, generally. And the option to collect information about the target or other relevant actions are as a rule only present if the designer thought of it and also found it worth the effort implementing it. I can't think of an example, though. Which kinda is my point. It's a nice option in theory, but if I have to chose between wandering around only to find out that the game doesn't provide the options I'd like to have and simply being teleported where I need to go, I'll gladly take the latter, thanks.
Also, you're still not being railroaded. You still have choices. The game may simply be more clear as to which choices are actually available.

I certainly do hope that not all quests amount to "Accept quest, be teleported to location, choose one of the options presented to you."
Am I right, VD? Just crush my hopes now if you must. Don't let them fester. I don't need another Gothic 3.

That's not a timed quest in my book, since its autoresolution is solely triggered by a player action. Can't have timed quest without an ingame timescale.

Now you're just being silly. The game assumes that as long as you don't leave the location, no significant amount of time passes. If you travel around the world, it does assume you blew it.
It's a perfectly plausible abstraction of time, especially if the location doesn't provide you with a year's worth of relevant interaction. And quite frankly, I have yet to see any location in any RPG I know that doesn't meet that requirement.

 

[Vault Dweller]

VD, when you are told about this assassination mission, are you told the time, place and target before you accept ...

See above.

In other quests, where there's no danger of you running your mouth off, or where people trust you a lot, you could make it an option....

Depends on a quest. The first AG quest is simple:

Look alive, boys. There are people in this fine town who need killing. Dias! An Aurelian envoy is expected to arrive today and deliver an ultimatum to Lord Antidas. A bloody accident should befall him before he reaches Teron. Coltan, your expertise in poison is required in a delicate family situation. [charname], can you handle two people?

No
Too bad. Work on your skills then.

Sure.
Good. There is a small house near the gate, on the right side. It's hard to find a better location to keep track of people entering and leaving Teron. I've been informed that the occupant of the house has a guest, who arrived this morning to collect the reports. Kill them both as a lesson to others before the day is over. Any questions?

Are you sure that they are spies?
No, I'm not. If I was, they wouldn't be good spies, would they?
...
How you handle this quest is up to you. Now the third quest is forced on you again. If you are still with the guild, it means the commander is dead. Even though you were assured that the Imperial Guards will be reasonable and won't come after the assassins, they Guards took it personally. A few guards attack the guild in the end of the second quest, which starts the third quest:

Neleos: I think it's safe to say that the guild is no longer off limits. *The smile is back. This time it looks menacing.* They've broken the rules and there's no going back. We're lucky that only a few enraged guards showed up tonight. Tomorrow they will come in force and we won't be able to stop them. We have no choice but to take out the Imperial Guards garrison. Tonight.

You want to hit the Imperial Guards barracks? It's a suicide mission.
Which is exactly why it will work. They won't expect it. Besides, tonight they will have the final rites for the Bull, ensuring that his journey to the land of the dead is successful. In other words, they will be too drunk to hold a sword.

If you don't want to do it, you can leave now, but you'll be leaving the guild as well. So, what's it gonna be?

1. I'm in.
Never had a doubt.

2. Sorry, Neleos. Too much action for one night for me.
Well... I'm disappointed, but I can't force you to do it.

Here is the plan. We wait till midnight, then we go in. Dias and Agatai, you are in charge of the grand entrance: scale the outside perimeter walls, and take out the two guards patrolling the inner yard. Quietly, of course. Then we all go in and remind everyone in Teron that an assassin isn't a street thug, but a messenger of Death herself, unstoppable by neither walls nor guards. Kill 'em all.
...

You enter the barracks. The place is dark and quiet. The very first thing you see is a dead guard with a surprised look on his young face. His sword is still in the scabbard. Another body lies a few meters away; the wall above is decorated by blood splashes. No matter how it ends, it will be awhile before the Imperial Guards forget this day.

And so on.

 

[galsiah]

Generally I agree with VD on this.
GBG has a point though. It's fine to impose restrictions, but ideally they should be imposed through NPCs and circumstance, rather than by not giving the PC an option.
Clearly you can only provide so many options - but that's the ideal.

With that assassination quest, it strikes me that the obvious course of action for someone who wanted the assassination to fail would be not to take the quest, then to warn the target. Is that an option? If not, why not? (it's fine if it's not possible for some in-game reason)
Of course you know that the player will have the option to save the target later - but the player doesn't know this when he's deciding to take the quest. (general gaming experience would probably lead most players not to expect such a choice - even though they'll appreciate it when it happens)

I disagree with GBG on the "make walking fun" bit. If the game were an open-world sim-like sandbox (e.g. a TES game done well), I'd absolutely agree. It isn't. There's nothing wrong with abstracting/quickening a dull game aspect, so long as it remains coherent (i.e. not like Oblivion fast travel). There's nothing incoherent about the teleportation VD describes.
How would you "make walking fun" in e.g. Arcanum? You could try, and succeed in a few areas with much effort, but in general you'd fail. You could succeed in general by turning things into a sandbox/sim game. VD's not making that kind of game.

It's a two-men job and the pay is 1,500 each.

It should be: ...two-man job...
The "man" is a kind of unit, so doesn't get pluralized. (as in 50-foot pool; 3-course meal...)

 

[Vault Dweller]

With that assassination quest, it strikes me that the obvious course of action for someone who wanted the assassination to fail would be not to take the quest, then to warn the target. Is that an option? If not, why not?

From what I posted above:

"It's a very delicate matter, so you can't leave the guild until it's time to go. I have everything you need right here...". If you decline the quest, you'll have to spend the night in the guild. I suppose there could have been an option to fight your way out, but you wouldn't have made it anyway. As in 0 chance to succeed.

The "man" is a kind of unit, so doesn't get pluralized. (as in 50-foot pool; 3-course meal...)

Thanks.

 

[astargoth]

Questions:
In the description of the first Assassin guild quest Dias has to kill Aurelian convoy. Is this related to Aurelian quests? If I join House Aurelian do I have to protect this guy, or is it simply flavor?
Is it possible to join a house/guild outside of Teron? Do I have to do those quests to progress in the guild, or is there a possibility to join them in a different city?

Edit: spelling

 

[Vault Dweller]

A lurker? Welcome to the forum.

In the description of the first Assasin guild quest Dias has to kill Aurelian convoy. Is this related to Aurelian quests? If I join House Aurelian do I have to protect this guy, or is it simply flavor?

Flavor. The spies, however, work for House Aurelian. One of the options is to help them escape and return to Maadoran. Dias will be sent after you, once the guild realizes that you failed to kill the spies.

Is it possible to join a house/guild outside of Teron?

Yes.

Do I have to do those quests to progress in the guild, or is there a possibility to join them in a different city?

Once you leave Teron, all timed quests, including the assassination of Carrinas, will be autocompleted with all the consequences. You can do some work for the assassins guild in Maadoran. You'll be told about the assassination in Teron and the subsequent attack on the Imperial Guards' barracks. You can continue the assassins guild questline from there.

 

[galsiah]

If you decline the quest, you'll have to spend the night in the guild. I suppose there could have been an option to fight your way out, but you wouldn't have made it anyway. As in 0 chance to succeed.

Sure - that makes good sense. My only worry is that that won't be clear to the player. I guess it should be - it just occurred to me that the player might think that the "so you can't leave the guild until it's time to go" is a condition of the quest if you take it on - but that you're free to leave if you don't get involved.
That probably doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but I do think it's possible for the occasional player to get that impression.

Ideally, it'd be nice if you could work in some kind of whether-you-take-the-mission-or-not you can't leave the guild.... That probably wouldn't work well though, since Neleos is explaining matters with the expectation you'll do it. I guess he wants you involved, so he's unlikely to present it as a choice you might well want to turn down(??).

It's probably fine as it is. You can't make everything totally clear without having every NPC sound like an automaton with OCD.

 

[Astromarine]

Ideally, it'd be nice if you could work in some kind of whether-you-take-the-mission-or-not you can't leave the guild.... That probably wouldn't work well though, since Neleos is explaining matters with the expectation you'll do it. I guess he wants you involved, so he's unlikely to present it as a choice you might well want to turn down(??).

That can be solved by something like "Just to let you know how vital this mission is, we're confining everyone else to the guild quarters for tonight until the mission is done. Wouldn't want any leaks, eh?" Then if you refure, you know you're part of "everyone else".