I like NWN, and no, I'm not Volourn

[Rosh]

(Snip Volourn's usual barely-legible waste of bandwidth.)

You know, I might care to point out many more examples, if it weren't for the amusement this is providing for the old school.

Yet, no, I rather take humor in the fact that you think I'm blowing smoke because I haven't named many examples. Many of which I would guess that you wouldn't have any clue as to where to start looking.

For instance, I could mention "Shadowlands", which is only known for the lighting effects much ahead of its time, and I could certainly believe that you have absolutely no clue of what I'm talking about. While the game is a bit poor in some regards, there's still far more environment interaction than in BioWare's games (unless you count the Barrels of PHAT LEWT that drop magic weapons nearr beggars when they are defeated). There's one place I know of offhand where the game is documented. That's fine, but you have to remember to be an adult and admit your ignorance. You're the one who is making blanket claims based upon your own ignorance.

Again, just because you are ignorant as bread mold and half as knowledgable, that doesn't mean that those games haven't existed. I'm sorry if they weren't exactly Diablo, where you don't have to think much to figure out where to better inform yourself.

/me sits back with some popcorn.

So, please continue with your ignorance. You're doing nothing but providing amusement for those of us who are old and experienced enough to remember what proves you're a liar. Then there's the fact that you claim that most of the "old CRPGs" were nothing more than dungeon hacks (again, paying no heed to how the genre came about). The ironic part of it all is that at the core, with the speech system being nearly ultimately useless and the lack of in-depth representation of a P&P RPG game (other than playing on "munchkin settings"), all of BioWare's games are easily counted as dungeon hacks.

The lie of "quite a few bugs" in Wasteland was amusing. It certainly reads like the general defense checklist that most BioWhores will result to when making derisive comments about games, no matter how fictional those claims are.

Environmental interaction, especially upon a personal level, has a good part in CRPGs. It's a key part of playing inside the world. You might think it doesn't, considering that BioWare doesn't care to do such in their CRPGs, but when have they ever been interested in anything other than labeling RTS games with speech trees CRPGs? Take an RTS combat scheme, throw in a bit of speech that is just about the same every time, usually irregardless to your actual character or not complex enough so that only a very few have any depth whatsoever, and often leads to combat. Then add in a little of D&D's character system, making the game a CRPG for sure because it's got the same character system, and there you have a "BioWare CRPG".

I picked examples that your usually clueless understanding could handle. That's why I said "like" those games. I could have said Wasteland, Shadowlands, Darklands, Shadowcaster, and many more, but you would have been completely lost or frantically looking for some aspect as to why the game was bad, should be discounted and "LOLOLOL!!Biowarediditfirstandcandoitbetter!"

I know it's odd that I mention Ultima quite a lot, but i was hoping to see exactly how far you would argue your ignorance. It's not that hard to think if "If Ultima is a good game, then what if the developers made more just like it?" The simple answer is, there's quite a few.

No, I'm not going to bother to list them all for you, as if you're not going to bother doing the work for yourself, I will not accomodate you, especially when you go to great lengths to talk out of your ass. While that's novel, I would suggest a mint before you continue. The smell of your bullshit is getting thick.

 

[Volourn]

Keep up the good work. Lots of gibberish in that post yet very little substance. It's funny that the others make a lot more sense arguing your point. Of course, sicne you can't read as evidenced by your replies, I'll just laugh. Not once, did I say *all* old RPGs were glorifed dungeon hacks yet you accuse me of blanket statements. R00fles! So, answer this, why do you lie about what I post? Hmm.. Funny you bring up Ultiame. Guess what, I agree. Ultima series is awesomes eries and still definitely oneof my faves/ Your point ebing what/ Oh, yeah: "I am Rosh, read me roar even though I just meow."

Youa re too busy making this about Bioware when it really has nothing to do with them. Period. Soemtiems you need to take a beak from your crusade and concentrate on other stuff. Then again, blind fanatics of your ilk usually can't.

Once again, keep up the good work. I need more entertainment.

 

[Sol Invictus]

I hope you don't consider me a blind fanatic, Volourn. You know me better than that. I frankly get really tired at the blatant 'omg you are a fallout fanatic LEWL n u luv arcanum ROFOOFALRERS!' of Howling1.

 

[Volourn]

Well. Howling's a fanatic himself so he doens't count. plus, he feels DS is "the best RPG of all time" (next to space oreinted games of course) so his opnion on these matters are low.

No, I don't think you're a fnaatic. we disagree on things sure; but I don't expect everyone toa gree with me. I don't feel others ahere fanatical here. VD being amongst them,

Rosh certainly is though. Are little 'argument" here really has nothing to do with Bioware despite the thread title yet that's what he goes on about. *yawn*

Anyways, I'll await his next 5 paragrpagh chest beating.

 

[Rosh]

Keep up the good work. Lots of gibberish in that post yet very little substance. It's funny that the others make a lot more sense arguing your point. Of course, sicne you can't read as evidenced by your replies, I'll just laugh. Not once, did I say *all* old RPGs were glorifed dungeon hacks yet you accuse me of blanket statements. R00fles! So, answer this, why do you lie about what I post?

Now that I have you firmly put into a corner, it's time to cut the facade and hang you with the garbage you've been spewing for quite some time.

CRPGs are a relatively new genre (in terms of both when most genres have originated and how they are designed), mainly since design hadn't gotten to the point of representing a role-playing game transferred to computer. Many games have claimed to be CRPGs, but lack the play of a RPG, including the really obvious point of BioWare calling an RTS with speech system a CRPG. Most of those people are unabashed munchkins, who believe that a stat system makes a CRPG, and you're using such to defend your point as well.

There was some notable exceptions, but for the most part the genre wasn't defined until a game put enough of the elements together in order to really represent your actions within the world. Ultima IV, 1985, one year before Wasteland. That is, unless you're using the quantification that "stats & classes = RPG", which wouldn't surprise me, either.

That is why the term dungeon crawlers and action-adventure have been around and used...you know, this topic hass been gone over a couple of times, by now it's clear you're just retarded. Either that, or you conveniently miss those topics or forget about them. Try the search feature of this forum if you need some more help.

 

[Volourn]

Try again. That was your weakest effort to date in this thread. Not enough flames yet still full of irrelevant anti BIo gibberish. Nice to know you admit that most older RPGs really were glorified dungeon hacks. Thanks for playing.

 

[Rosh]

Try again. That was your weakest effort to date in this thread. Not enough flames yet still full of irrelevant anti BIo gibberish.

Good job in finding the Submit button in order to waste more bandwidth.

Nice to know you admit that most older RPGs really were glorified dungeon hacks.

It's nice to know that you have absolutely no clue about the genres and don't care to. I suppose you'll brag about that to your buddies, just like how you must brag your 4th grade edumacashun! It takes a special kind of person to be proud of their ignorance.

 

[Volourn]

Finally. Not one mention of Bioware. Your IQ is actually 10 points higher than I thought it was. Maybe one day soon I'll take you seriously. Maybe. Maybe not.

 

[Rosh]

Finally. Not one mention of Bioware. Your IQ is actually 10 points higher than I thought it was. Maybe one day soon I'll take you seriously. Maybe. Maybe not.

That's amusing, since MobyGames even has the definition right of the Adventure genre; correctly, too. Of course their editing dept did have to bend the CRPG definition a little to the industry whores (mainly since it would take forever to see who is lying about the genre and is actually mislabeling the game), and that is why some RTS games with speech systems are included in the CRPG genre listing, as is also Fallout Tactics. I could also point out the redundent point that calling a game a CRPG doesn't necessarily make it a CRPG. There's plenty of examples of this.

You're too far busy concentrating on being a chucklehead instead of the topic. It's quite obvious by now. Go back to your monosyllabic replies, at least they aren't as stupid compared to when you rape your keyboard extensively.

 

[Adraeus]

Finally. Not one mention of Bioware. Your IQ is actually 10 points higher than I thought it was. Maybe one day soon I'll take you seriously. Maybe. Maybe not.

That's amusing, since MobyGames even has the definition right of the Adventure genre; correctly, too. Of course their editing dept did have to bend the CRPG definition a little to the industry whores (mainly since it would take forever to see who is lying about the genre and is actually mislabeling the game), and that is why some RTS games with speech systems are included in the CRPG genre listing, as is also Fallout Tactics. I could also point out the redundent point that calling a game a CRPG doesn't necessarily make it a CRPG. There's plenty of examples of this.

You're too far busy concentrating on being a chucklehead instead of the topic. It's quite obvious by now. Go back to your monosyllabic replies, at least they aren't as stupid compared to when you rape your keyboard extensively.

Volourn: Intelligent Quotient (IQ) is a measure of an individual's test-taking abilities. A high IQ does not indicate knowledge-genius or an advanced ability to form objectively rational judgments. Example: Mensa.

Rosh: Next time, use two hands on your penis instead of the usual one, and stay away from your computer. The quality of discussion here will improve when you discontinue your public display of screen-splurging.

 

[Rosh]

I can play this game, too. Hey, made you reply!

DANCE, PUPPET, DANCE!

Are you trying to impress one of your idiot buddies? "Hurhurhur, look at what I posted! I said something bad about them!" Next time, try having a little bit of courtesy for those involved, including Volourn, and have some relevance to the topic. Or I can just get you into a position where you do nothing but spam your way into a goodbye. It's your pick.

 

[Araanor]

Please. I played Dark Sun series. In fact, played one of them about a year or so ago. It was very much a glorified dunegon hack.

Please, do explain what makes Dark Sun more of a 'glorified dunegon hack' than, say, Baldur's Gate.

 

[Sol Invictus]

I always leave many of the other forum members to get to the juicy points. It'd be no fun if only a few of us had to bring out every point of argument. So yes Volourn, do tell us what makes Dark Sun any more of a 'glorified dungeon hack' than BG or NWN.

 

[Volourn]

First off, I never said it was more of a dungeon hack than either of those games. However, I would be NWN where Dark Sun is. Both are light on story, and heavy in co,bat. With Bg, it's not, because the story is the driving force. Sure, there's a lot of combat in BG, but it's the story thatd rives the game forward. Combat is usually the result of the story being puhsed forward (unless you are the type to explore every single square inch of every single map). Even NWN, it's usually the story pushing you forward so it's not that bad in thatr egard. However, dark Sun (and it's GB compatriots), I always felt they were basically abou the combat, gathering the treasure, and levelling up. Remember, this does not make them bad games. In fact some of the GB games were even better than NWN. No doubt about it; but theyw ere still (mostly) glorified dungeon hacks. To me a dungeon hack is where the three things I emntioned aboved at leasts eem to be the main focus.

Rosh, i see where you coming from. Any game that doesn't meet a narrowly defined set of rules for your ROG ideal is not a RPG. that's cool. From that skewered perspective, I could see how you can go on about how "most old skool RPGs" aren't glorified dungeon hacks. Youa re probably the type who thinks the Wizardrys, M&M, and BT seriesa ren't RPGs. That's kewl if you wanna live in Roshie's Ruff's House. I prefer to live in the real world. As for Moby Games, big whoop. Consdieirng you quote them and then say theyc an't eb really be trusted in the same sentence makes the comment null and void. Of course, theyr'e only right when theya gree with you. R00fles.

Adraeus, who the heck are you and why are ye spamming?

 

[Vault Dweller]

Volourn: Intelligent Quotient (IQ) is a measure of an individual's test-taking abilities. A high IQ does not indicate knowledge-genius or an advanced ability to form objectively rational judgments. Example: Mensa.

Rosh: Next time, use two hands on your penis instead of the usual one, and stay away from your computer. The quality of discussion here will improve when you discontinue your public display of screen-splurging.

Adraeus: If you have nothing to contribute to the discussion, stay the fuck out.

 

[StraitLacedDeviant]

Every post the guy manages to beat out of his keyboard is baffling, he seems to randomly spew comments with no kind of link to the topic.

 

[Country_Gravy]

I think that even in so called dungeon hacks, the story still drives the game. They just have a large emphasis on the combat side of things. Hell, even Wizard's Crown from back in the day was a dungeon hack, but the story dictated where to go and what the point was of being in the dungeon in which you were hacking. BT, Might and Magic, and all those old school "dungeon hacks" had a story. To say that in BG the story was the driving force doesn't really make that much sense to me. Don't all these games have a story that drives the game forward? How do you determine which one had the story driving the game more?

 

[Araanor]

snip

So, a large amount of scripted sequences plus a flood of dialogue is what separates dungeon hacks from non-dungeon-hacks. I get it.

 

[Volourn]

Araanor, close. It's glorified dungeon hack. tHAT'S THE KEY.

Gravy, true, you got a good point. However, to me though, it depends admittedly on how I feel is driving ths tory. For example, IWD1 was designed from the get go as a 'dungeon crawl'. Sure, it had a prettyd ecent story (well, as per suual, depending on who you ask lol); but the story was made to fit the monsters and areas it seems. Heck, the randomized loot which was a big focus of the game shgows this point and drives it home. A game like BG2, the story feels like it was written and then the creatures were put in to add to the story 9or the various side quests which was a big part of BG2's appeal for its fans). So sure, it had lots of combat; but it seems it was added to enhance the experience not to be the experience. When people discuss why they like BG2 so much it's usually a mix of story, quests, npcs, and aprty members. Sure, you could play BG2 as a dungeon hack, but I don't think it was deisgned to be one like IWD was.

P.S. Lots of garbage to not say a lot.

 

[plin]

Volourn: Intelligent Quotient (IQ) is a measure of an individual's test-taking abilities. A high IQ does not indicate knowledge-genius or an advanced ability to form objectively rational judgments. Example: Mensa.

Rosh: Next time, use two hands on your penis instead of the usual one, and stay away from your computer. The quality of discussion here will improve when you discontinue your public display of screen-splurging.

Adraeus: If you have nothing to contribute to the discussion, stay the fuck out.

hah, how come you don't say this to llamashit with all his bullshit?

 

[Rosh]

Volourn, you keep going on about Baldur's Gate and the other BioWare titles. When will you ever learn that what they have put out was done long before? Better, in many cases, except in regards for giving some twisted kids the option to write in Boo love romances and the like. An overglorified dungeon hack isn't the point of a CRPG. It's the munchkin definition, where only PHAT LEWT matters.

You can also drop "traditional CRPGs" unless you're referring to Ultima IV-VII (which had leagues over anything BioWare has done to date, except make an editor for the game).

Right now, BioWare's work often doesn't follow a CRPG definition, it is more suited towards the Adventure genre, and fits perfectly within the RTS genre (and is listed as such). It's funny that you claimed something about the combat, as it's nothing more than weak filler between the story elements, which is pretty much normal for many other games, including FOS. There's a reason why many consider Planescape:Torment to be a CRPG (or, at least a CRPG/RTS hybrid by technical definitions) moreso than most of BioWare's work will ever be; the speech system wasn't half ass, and the game actually responded to your actions like you'd decently expect in a P&P RPG session. This, versus evil being just good for hire, good is something more than evil that paid enough for their reputation, evil is more than a 13 year-old's definition of what "evil" amounts to, classes and abilities outside combat are taken into account versus a paladin getting better prices at a thieve's guild because their reputation is better. Or should I update that to mention the faction system, instead?

As for the source from MobyGames being moot, maybe you need to read the explanation before you just go "Oh! TEY CANSHEL EACH OFFER OUTLOLOLOL!!!" I'll explain more in depth since you seem to be a little hard of thinking this lifetime.

The Adventure genre has been around for FAR longer than the CRPG genre, from which the CRPG genre has its roots. "Traditional CRPG" is a new word, coined by some people new to the industry who have had no clue about how the genres came about. CRPGs started becoming known as such when they either did or tried to represent a P&P RPG experience upon the computer. Simpletons, many of them at publishers, looked at these games, saw that there were titles in the past that had character systems and such, and decided to cash in on the growing CRPG audience from the original roots of the Adventure genre. Many of these games still belonged in the core Adventure genre, the Action-Adventure genre, or maybe the Adventure-Sim sub-genre (which CRPG is a sub-genre to Adventure as well). Instead of spaceships, give another vehicle, stats, etc. Therefore, anything with a character system, speech system, and/or fantasy setting often is billed as a CRPG. By the same methods, you could rule the original Starfleet Command as a CRPG, but it isn't because of the lacking PHAT LEWT and other things the munchkins enjoy. Why is this? Due to the industry, through those who would sell an RTS with a speech system as a CRPG, the definition of CRPG has become rather watered down and really stretched. If not stretched in some places, then made really cliché so that anything fantasy and/or with equippable weapons, involving stats of some kind, becomes the judging point for a game being classified as a CRPG.

It also doesn't do much to have a games listing where the ignorant consumer goes to look up a game that is supposedly a CRPG and doesn't find it because someone put it where it really belonged.

I'm sorry if I prefer the "original" definition of CRPG rather than the "traditional" definition, which is actually quite recent. In fact, the argument about player reflexes has gone on since Ultima 7, where people disliked the RT combat scheme as it took away from the experience in many ways. At least the world wasn't a lifeless bitmap to play Hunt the Pixel upon, nor unbelievable enough to rip off Darkstone's design (including barrels!). People want to play a CRPG when they buy a CRPG, not something that has a few token traits and is shipped off as such. People say the original Adventure genre is dead, but instead it has been primadonna publiushers/developers and newbie apologists that have skewed the classification system to hell with labeling everything with stats or levels a CRPG. The Adventure genre is still quite alive, newbies don't care to note the distinctions between the various sub-genres.

Then I could get into the hybrid genres, those that share traits of two or more genres, like System Shock 2 and Deus Ex (technically, FPS/Dungeon Crawler), but I'm afraid a few heads would explode, and Hazmat cleanup is very expensive to put a few parents through that trauma. That is why many also have given up and just accepted that CRPG will be stretched to fit what anyone cares to call a CRPG. Good designers, and those who care about good design, know the truth and why they are called that, and the vet designers should know how the genre came about.

But considering the place, it does help to use the correct definitions since we're a bit beyond the average Final Fantasy fansite. What would be the point of not adhering to the genre classifications if this is a site that does cater to CRPGs? Many of them are called CRPG for bullshit reasons, and we say as much, right?

 

[Elwro]

I played both Dark Sun: Shattered Lands and Gold Box games. I wouldn't do as Volourn does and call them 'compatriots'. OK, that was long ago, but I remember GB games as pure dungeoneering and combat (with dialogues you had to read from your manual), and Dark Sun as an interesting RPG. I remember something about having to gather an army for a big battle against the ruler. You had diverse options of convincing people (2 towns and some other groups) to join your cause, and the composition of your army depended upon which quests you did and whom you helped. I think you could replay the game in quite a differing fashion, doing other quests. Imo that's a big step up from the GB level.

But that was some time ago, so maybe I don't remember some shining features of GB games.

 

[undead dolphin hacker]

Dark Sun had lots of cool choices. And it had rudimentary Psionics, which was nice.

It was definitely much more of an RPG than the upside-down portapotty NWN was.

 

[Volourn]

Rosh, your giggly fit of a child aside, you make little more sense that a fish drowning while spekaing on land. Your post, while long, pretty much sums up nothing but your anal retentivety. That's ok, we still love you. We being the Borg that is.

Anyways,a s for RPGCodex, you go on and on about what's classified as what but as I've satted many tims, people here say certain games aren't RPGs yet a so-called 'hardcore RPG site" as this one covers them anyways. Kinda beats the purpose dontcha think? I can answer that, actually. You don't think. At least not very clearly.

Please trya agin. I know you'll get it right eventually.



Undead: Psionics was cool in DS. Remember, I never said it sucked.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Anyways,a s for RPGCodex, you go on and on about what's classified as what but as I've satted many tims, people here say certain games aren't RPGs yet a so-called 'hardcore RPG site" as this one covers them anyways. Kinda beats the purpose dontcha think? I can answer that, actually.

There we go again. I can't speak for the stuff, but personally I "cover" non-RPGs for educational purposes: to tell the kids why this or that particular game is not an rpg despite the fuss and the hype. Happy now?