How would you feel about a small cRPG setting?

[Phelot]

I was reading through "The Wailing Sorrow" a fanmade supplement for Ravenloft (you can find it here if you scroll down, bottom right) and it reminded me about how PnP is much more detailed than cRPG's but at the same time much smaller scale. That is, if a true PnP conversion to cRPG would to ever occur, the game play would likely be very short considering all the time spent on rolls and stats and whatnot.

Anyway, in "The Wailing Sorrow" you have one town, one big quest, several smaller ones along with a few characters with minor quests. Of course it's also filled with all kinds of different approaches to each quest and it would be possible to complete the game without seeing a lot of stuff or even solving the main quest properly.

Anyway, so let's say this supplement was made into a cRPG complete with all the details, small nooks and crannies that you normally don't see in such a video game. I'm talking every citizen of this small town would have their own dialogue with their own personalities, importance to quests, etc etc. There is really only 3-4 main combat encounters and all of them could probably be avoided.

But even with all that detail the game would be incredibly short with limited combat encounters (though they could become drawn out.) So would that be OK with you? Would you spend money on a game like that and if so, how much?

 

[BLOBERT]

BRO GIVEN YOU'RE TOTALLY THOROUGH HYOPTHETICAL DESCRIPTION OF A NONEXISTANT PRODECT I WOULD SPEND ONLY $17.87 ALTHOUGH MAYBE 2 MORE DOLLARS IF THERE WERE SOME SMALL GARDENS OUTSIDE OF TOWN

 

[Admiral jimbob]

I always thought an RPG made of a series of vignette situations of varying length - related or otherwise - would be good. Sounds like something an indie team could handle without the "sprawl" problem often associated with indie projects, as well.

 

[Phelot]

BRO GIVEN YOU'RE TOTALLY THOROUGH HYOPTHETICAL DESCRIPTION OF A NONEXISTANT PRODECT I WOULD SPEND ONLY $17.87 ALTHOUGH MAYBE 2 MORE DOLLARS IF THERE WERE SOME SMALL GARDENS OUTSIDE OF TOWN

I'll pass your feedback up the grapevine. Thank you for your input.

I always thought an RPG made of a series of vignette situations of varying length - related or otherwise - would be good. Sounds like something an indie team could handle without the "sprawl" problem often associated with indie projects, as well.

I used to think this would be cool to. MMO's do this in a sense when they release expansions such as in LOTRO. Pretty cool idea if you ask me especially if you can still backtrack to older locations. In a sense, the more expansions you buy, the more you open up the gameworld with each location being like a mini game in themselves.

 

[sgc_meltdown]

There's the problem with having a strong and robust foundation with full implementation of rulesets and combat etc. You'd get comments on why, why didn't they make a bigger game with this. People don't want just memorable, they want at least moderate amounts of filling as well. These days they're settling for a bit of memorable and a lot of filling.

As a standalone game by itself I'm thinking 25 bucks max depending on how different completist runs are and how long they would take. If it's very short it needs a shitload of high production CGI and other retardation to not get shunted into 'art-game, play it to experience something 'different' and then go back to world of warcraft' territory. It doesn't just need to look pretty. It needs to look STUNNING. Or have incredibly good animations and be in black and white or 'charming pixel graphics'. Otherwise yeah 20 bucks give or take.

Slight tangent: How munch did Portal initially retail for anyway?

As a module bundled with an monoclean RPG maker construction kit however, it will not only serve as a wonderful example of the awesome shit you can do with this tool but more importantly allow for user RPG modules with very high scope of detail. Then any bitchers can be pointed to 'you're paying for the toolset idiot, not just the game' line that worked so well for NWN. If it meets the hype and is the jesus of rpg making toolsets I'd pay up to 70 united american dollers.

 

[Gregz]

I was reading through "The Wailing Sorrow" a fanmade supplement for Ravenloft (you can find it here if you scroll down, bottom right) and it reminded me about how PnP is much more detailed than cRPG's but at the same time much smaller scale. That is, if a true PnP conversion to cRPG would to ever occur, the game play would likely be very short considering all the time spent on rolls and stats and whatnot.

Anyway, in "The Wailing Sorrow" you have one town, one big quest, several smaller ones along with a few characters with minor quests. Of course it's also filled with all kinds of different approaches to each quest and it would be possible to complete the game without seeing a lot of stuff or even solving the main quest properly.

Anyway, so let's say this supplement was made into a cRPG complete with all the details, small nooks and crannies that you normally don't see in such a video game. I'm talking every citizen of this small town would have their own dialogue with their own personalities, importance to quests, etc etc. There is really only 3-4 main combat encounters and all of them could probably be avoided.

But even with all that detail the game would be incredibly short with limited combat encounters (though they could become drawn out.) So would that be OK with you? Would you spend money on a game like that and if so, how much?

Haters are gonna hate, but Diablo I perfected this.

A very small, cozy, well written and voice-acted town. Awesome story elements about Lazarus and the kidnapped prince. A neat atmospheric witch living across the brook with her ravens in the tree to buy spells from. A hearty smithy and inn at the center of town. A broken drunk who was exposed to the horrors you are about to face. A handful of quests peppered throughout the dungeon relating back to the NPCs. Cain there to fill you in on the lore. A beautiful, haunting, sorrowful score in the background. It's almost the perfect fantasy setting.

Casual, minimalist, and every element of the highest quality. Truly a masterpiece.

Does it represent the depth of PnP well in a quantitative way? Absolutely not. Did it remind me of some great sessions I had with my DnD gaming group back in the day? Absolutely.


I've never really been a 'storyfag', so I can't answer to the second part of your question. In PnP there are only a handful of combat encounter's per module (that's what the small pre-made campaigns were called in DnD) because as you say, doing the rolling by hand, going around the table asking everyone what they will do, for perhaps 5+ rounds takes up a lot of time. Computers can make all of those elements much faster. Personally I'm hearing the description of an adventure game, but I can't see designing an intricate combat engine only to have a handful of encounters with. Usually it takes 10-20 encounters (on a PC) for the user to develop a strategy and learn how combat works. I'm just not sure how that would work in a PC game with 3-4 total encounters.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

I was reading through "The Wailing Sorrow" a fanmade supplement for Ravenloft (you can find it here if you scroll down, bottom right) and it reminded me about how PnP is much more detailed than cRPG's but at the same time much smaller scale. That is, if a true PnP conversion to cRPG would to ever occur, the game play would likely be very short considering all the time spent on rolls and stats and whatnot.

Anyway, in "The Wailing Sorrow" you have one town, one big quest, several smaller ones along with a few characters with minor quests. Of course it's also filled with all kinds of different approaches to each quest and it would be possible to complete the game without seeing a lot of stuff or even solving the main quest properly.

Anyway, so let's say this supplement was made into a cRPG complete with all the details, small nooks and crannies that you normally don't see in such a video game. I'm talking every citizen of this small town would have their own dialogue with their own personalities, importance to quests, etc etc. There is really only 3-4 main combat encounters and all of them could probably be avoided.

But even with all that detail the game would be incredibly short with limited combat encounters (though they could become drawn out.) So would that be OK with you? Would you spend money on a game like that and if so, how much?

Yes if it would be in my style (realistic combat system, works on old computers, nice graphics - preferably 8-bit, tastefully done rape). 25 PLN (25$ if I would be a 'kwan).

 

[Excidium]

I like the idea. Sounds like what TOEE tried to be.

 

[Phelot]

I've never really been a 'storyfag', so I can't answer to the second part of your question. In PnP there are only a handful of combat encounter's per module (that's what the small pre-made campaigns were called in DnD) because as you say, doing the rolling by hand, going around the table asking everyone what they will do, for perhaps 5+ rounds takes up a lot of time. Computers can make all of those elements much faster. Personally I'm hearing the description of an adventure game, but I can't see designing an intricate combat engine only to have a handful of encounters with. Usually it takes 10-20 encounters (on a PC) for the user to develop a strategy and learn how combat works. I'm just not sure how that would work in a PC game with 3-4 total encounters.

Yeah, maybe a few more encounters, or maybe even a lot more would be needed. I would want to avoid random encounters and grinding. That doesn't mean the encounters can't have a few random elements to them, but I wouldn't want to see another PC party with hundreds of kills under their belt. Kind of ruins the small scale feel. So, in a sense, think about BG2's special encounters or some of the more thought out encounters in ToEE. That's the sort of thing I'm talking about. Fighting a few named NPCs, not just a horde of "Soldier, soldier, mage, soldier, etc"

Anyway, I shouldn't haven't mentioned how much we'd be willing to pay since that wasn't really my main goal here, I'm more interested in whether this would all work and be enjoyable.

 

[chewie]

Definately a nice idea / thought. Potential idea for indy developers / demo projects of people who want to brush up their portfolio in order to get a job in the gaming industry.

That way you could concentrate on game mechanics, one detailed location - and experiment with some other things, like letting the player character do things like in PnP games ("Henry grabbed a stone, jumped down the hill and while throwing the stone at the bandit with the big gun, he switches to his knife and attacks the gang leader". Gamemaster: Henry successfully hit the Big gunner with the stone who dropped his weapon in pain, but the knife attack ended in Henry overbalancing and falling down. The Gang leader took the opportunity to kick poor Henry unconscious. :D )

 

[eric__s]

You should check out Shadows Over Riva because it did this. Gothic 1 and 2 also did this to a lesser extent. I was actually thinking about why Gothic 1 and 2 were better games than 3, and I sort of came to the conclusion that a big part of it was that you don't form any meaningful connections with anyone in the game in the same way that you do in 1. The people around you in Gothic 1 matter because they're always going to be around you. If you don't pay your duties to the guards, it actually matters because you run into those guys a lot. In Gothic 3, the world is huge and you leave any characters you interact with almost immediately for other areas, making your interactions less meaningful and memorable. Diego is memorable partly because he's always around and is a contributor to the world you're in, whereas in Gothic 3 nobody has as much influence because the world is much less confined.

Basically, this is a great idea if you want to develop characters and a setting. I think you should go for it.

 

[Phelot]

LOL, I ain't makin nothin, I was just curious to see if anyone else would enjoy playing something similar.

I think a lot of games at least attempted to try to emulate PnP design, but the combat seems to always take over. As you mention Gothic, I can't help but remember depopulating entire regions of land of their natural animal life. :D

 

[Storyfag]

Anyway, I shouldn't haven't mentioned how much we'd be willing to pay since that wasn't really my main goal here, I'm more interested in whether this would all work and be enjoyable.

Yes, yes it would.

You should check out Shadows Over Riva because it did this. Gothic 1 and 2 also did this to a lesser extent. I was actually thinking about why Gothic 1 and 2 were better games than 3, and I sort of came to the conclusion that a big part of it was that you don't form any meaningful connections with anyone in the game in the same way that you do in 1. The people around you in Gothic 1 matter because they're always going to be around you. If you don't pay your duties to the guards, it actually matters because you run into those guys a lot. In Gothic 3, the world is huge and you leave any characters you interact with almost immediately for other areas, making your interactions less meaningful and memorable.it.

You just pinpointed why The Witcher is superior to The Witcher 2.

 

[Metro]

Hard to judge from your description what 'short' actually means. You can still have a game confined to one city be incredibly good/deep/packed with content if, as you say, it is done with high attention to detail and filled with unique npcs that give varying side quests and such. Also depends on a host of other factors like production value, replay value, etc. I think $20 would probably be the sweet spot, again, depending on how much content in terms of game hours it actually turned out to be. If we're talking under ten or so then I, personally, probably wouldn't pay more than $5-$10 but I'm a fucking cheapskate. One thing new/indie developers have to be aware of today is that the digital market has driven prices lower (unless you're Betehesderp publishing your latest AAA schlock that morons will flock to buy) -- just look at what most indie crpgs go for today.

 

[Daemongar]

Well, pnp D&D modules were small but they took forever because people had infinite ability to do stupid things, which made the game so much more than the small module or location.

A cRPG Sims, that is a small location with infinite options at eny one time, or at least a huge amount of options in a limited scale would be great. Nothing is worse than all the huge locations in CRPGS that have one dude at the end to kill, but they went to all the trouble of creating an underground fortress. Spent all that time, and this is all you can come up with?

The cities in NWN were like this: gigantic city with 4 visitable locaitons. BG wasn't bad: not too many wasted city places. PS:T was awesome at this, almost ever place had lots to do, most npc's had more than they let on.

Look, if anyone creates an RPG on Steam or whatever, I'll buy any old junk for $5 - 10. Hell, I paid $10 for "Limbo" and that only took... 3 hours. Eh, it was pretty interesting, though. Certainly captivating. Those Norwegians know dark...

 

[Phelot]

Well, just to give you an idea in case you all haven't looked at OP link, the module is essentially a criminal investigation into some local disappearances in and around a fanmade town in Mordent. A few decades or so ago, the town suffered through a serial killer's rampage and so the townsfolk are pretty weary of strangers, which is what the PC's are. It turns out that the disappearances are actually brigands. That is satisfactory enough to end the campaign, but a little bit more digging reveals that the brigands are well payed by someone which potentially opens up into something more i.e. their paid by the previous serial killer. The module was meant to have a second half that was never finished, but in any case, the game would consist of a lot of investigation on the PC's part. A lot of locals are guilty of causing the serial killer to do what he did, so the idea is that not many people are willing to help for fear that their dirty laundry might be revealed. I agree this is all very adventure game like, but I think it deviates in that there are several ways of solving the issues at hand.

Obviously this is all storyfag heaven. But I think any module could be tweaked enough to allow for more combat, but again, I think hordes should and could be avoided.

 

[Surf Solar]

It sounds really good, but a game set in one city only would lack one thing - the visual variety. I'm probably stepping dangerous terrain here - but take the GTA series. I found the San Andreas title really good, because you would see altered terrain as you progress through the game, landscapes, countrysides, suburbs, the actual downton, "ghettos" etc. - in short, many different themes and "moodsets". In GTAIV on the other hand, you spent the entire game in a city which looks very similar in all its parts. Maybe it's just me, but a game can be a godsent gift full of awesomeness, but if I would have to spend a lot of time in the same enviroment all the time I'd get bored very fast. It takes a lot of skill to avoid this, and then you still need to develop all the (good) stuff you mentionend (each npc having its own persona etc)

 

[sgc_meltdown]

bros speaking of short modules

http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.c ... _orcandpie

The World's Shortest (Yet Technically Complete) Adventure

"The Orc and the Pie: A Parody"

Adventure Background: An orc has a pie.

Adventure Synopsis: The PCs kill the orc and take his pie.

Adventure Hook: The PCs are hungry for pie.

Room 1:
The Orc's Pie Room

You see an orc with a pie.

The room is 10 feet by 10 feet.

Creature: An orc.

Treasure: A pie.

Concluding the Adventure: Pie tastes good.

Further Adventures: Somewhere, there is a bakery making these good pies. Perhaps it's guarded by more orcs.

CHOICES AND CONSEQUENCES

 

[Erebus]

Sounds a bit like Mysteries of Westgate, which I really liked.

 

[Multi-headed Cow]

I'VE PLAYED TOMB OF HORRORS I'M NOT FALLING FOR THIS, carefully inspect the pie to see if the orc has had his way with it before eating.

 

[laclongquan]

The most understandable reason why games are not made for a small setting: it does not feel 'EPIC!!!'

Fuck! Take Sigil of PST, for example: totally urban setting. From a slum to highclass dwellings, from sewer to catacombs, from market to factory/forge. Each section of the city is only used sparingly, with most used are Clerk's Ward and the area around Morgue. If you want to make a game in that city alone, just expand each area into a small town with its complete facilities and citizens. For the graphic eye candies, you can concentrate in unique art style for each Ward. Hell, you can even make jungle setting in pocket mazes linked to Sigil by some gate.

But then the marketing apes can not call that game 'EPIC!!!" A big nono to their (and the bosses') way of thinking.

EDIT: how would you like a game built around "THE SIEGE OF SIGIL" with most of the games running around inside The CAGE, with some times spent outside.

 

[Phelot]

It sounds really good, but a game set in one city only would lack one thing - the visual variety. I'm probably stepping dangerous terrain here - but take the GTA series. I found the San Andreas title really good, because you would see altered terrain as you progress through the game, landscapes, countrysides, suburbs, the actual downton, "ghettos" etc. - in short, many different themes and "moodsets". In GTAIV on the other hand, you spent the entire game in a city which looks very similar in all its parts. Maybe it's just me, but a game can be a godsent gift full of awesomeness, but if I would have to spend a lot of time in the same enviroment all the time I'd get bored very fast. It takes a lot of skill to avoid this, and then you still need to develop all the (good) stuff you mentionend (each npc having its own persona etc)

I wonder if its a matter of opinion. In my own opinion, I don't mind if a game is set primarily in a swamp, or in a snowy mountain. Whatever. If we're seeking moods than I think one setting can meet any mood you want to invoke. In a swampy, bayou setting, you have the scary, lonely swamps, but then you have a warm fire back at some backwoods cabin, a sense of safety where you can rest.

I don't really need to have the spooky graveyard, followed up with the lava filled caverns, and then the pine forest, etc. I think proper atmosphere design can make one setting work.

 

[Phelot]

I'VE PLAYED TOMB OF HORRORS I'M NOT FALLING FOR THIS, carefully inspect the pie to see if the orc has had his way with it before eating.

[PERCEPTION]The pie appears to be of the apple variety, but the crust seems to have been disturbed as though something stabbed it and a strange, white substance is seen within the pie.

 

[BLOBERT]

BRO I WAS BEING A SMARTASS BECAUSE THE QUESTION SEEMED SO VAGUE

A GAME COULD BE TOTALLY AWESOME WITH ONE TOWN OR SUCK ASS I THINK EVEN THE LENGTH OF THE GAME WOULD NOT ALWAYS BE SHORT BY NECESSITY

BROS TARANT OR SIGIL WERE DECENT EXAMPLES OF THE SCOPE OF A CITY IN AN RPG

 

[RK47]

Betancuria, a city in A Dance with Rogues NWN module is pretty much my favorite at the moment. Plenty of content at first playthrough and some occasional surprises. 75% of the game takes place in that city and it really grew on you as you get familiar with the hotspots in town.