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Hearthstone

Ash_Firelord

Educated
Joined
Aug 19, 2015
Messages
80
I think people underestimate the skill that is needed to take a Secret Pally on a good run. It's on a totally different level from Face Hunter, a deck I can play while playing another game, and still win.
 

Mystary!

Arcane
Joined
Oct 12, 2006
Messages
2,633
Location
Holmia
Yeah such skill that even bots reach legend with it. I believe that is the very definition of brainless deck.
 

Mystary!

Arcane
Joined
Oct 12, 2006
Messages
2,633
Location
Holmia
Anyway, this was a good read concerning Mysterious Challenger among other things:

https://www.reddit.com/r/hearthstone/comments/3r1vr4/curious_design_card_advantage_in_hearthstone/ said:
There has been a lot of discussion recently, rooting from Mysterious Challenger, that's grown into something a bit larger, a bit deeper. People have recently been discussing what they feel is a fundamental problem with the design of Hearthstone and the extreme focus on board control.

Kripp recently posted a video talking about how the game has gotten "too fast." Firebat said the problem revolves around "doing nothing but playing minions on curve". The Hearthstone community as a whole knows something is wrong, but there is a lot of disagreement on what exactly the problem is, and why a deck-like Secret Paladin has created such intense backlash.

No respect for Card Advantage undermines the integrity of the game.
Card Advantage is a concept that has been fundamental to all other competitive card games. The idea originated at nearly the beginning of Magic the Gathering. For an in depth discussion on Card Advantage here's an article from Wizards of the Coast (makers of MtG).

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/lo/basics-card-advantage-2014-08-25

"Card advantage is, very likely, the single most important concept in competitive Magic. A tremendous proportion of games are decided, in one way or another, by card advantage."

Those are powerful words "the single most important concept in competitive Magic".

Card advantage is a really simple concept, if you can kill two of his cards with one of your cards, then eventually your opponent runs out of cards, and you win. Looking at the game through the lens of Card Advantage exposes the key aspect of an asymetrical battle between Aggro and Control. Aggro is trying to drop your life total to zero before it ... runs out of cards. Control is trying out 'out value' aggro, playing powerful cards and threatening 2 for 1s.

Playing for card advantage is decision making
Playing for card advantage is almost always about making decisions. You generally need to sacrifice something early (board strength, life, etc) to gain Card Advantage in the late game. A lot of the real strategy and decision making in a card game come down to the kinds of risks your willing to take to squeeze every last drop of value out of some card.

Those risks and choices make for a deeper, more satisfying style of game play. Those trade-offs, the critical decisions, let a players decisions shine, and take back some of the random nature of a card game. This isn't the only way to play the game, and it isn't the best way. But the current design direction has stopped even offering "Value play" as an option.

Problematic cards have no counter play
If you look at the roots of the most problematic cards in Hearthstone: (Mysterious Challenger, Piloted Shredder, Mad Scientist, Dr Boom) you'll see a theme. These cards prevent counterplay. Your opponent can't realistically get a 2 for 1 against these cards, the tools simply aren't there. Further, there are very, very few cases where you can even get a 1 for 1 against these cards. They all subtly work to undermine the health of the game by removing the entire branch of strategy that revolves around Card Advantage.

Mysterious Challenger is bonkers
Mysterious Challenger pushes this boundary further than any card previously. Between the noble sacrifice, the avenge, redemption, and finally repentence - there is no way to punish it. There is not a single card in Hearthstone that can even answer it. The answer to mysterious challenger must be two or more cards. Not even Hex the strongest single target removal or twisting nether the strongest board wipe nor flare the strongest secret removal tool can deal with Mysterious Challenger.

If you look at MC through the lens of Card Advantage, the card is simply broken.

Less obvious cards are also problematic
If we look under the hood, we find more, Divine Favor is a deeply problematic card. This card fundamentally punishes opponents who are fighting for Card Advantage. There's a reason that some players just feel disgust when they're on the receiving end of this card. It's not that it's just not fun, it's not that it's too strong, it's that it fundamentally violates a core aspect of the strategy in competitive card games: it punishes your opponent for gaining Card Advantage. It punishes a player for getting extra value out of his cards.

Man, Divine Favor is a really shitty card.

The tension between Tempo and Card Advantage is the heart of a healthy Hearthstone.
For Hearthstone to be healthy, it needs truly different kinds of strategies. Decks that play an inherently different game and have inherently different goals. There must be a battle between Tempo and Card Advantage with each side approaching the game with different methods of putting the opponent to zero life.

Without that tension between Tempo and Card Advantage, the game devolves. It becomes the one dimensional game Firebat talks about "just dropping minions on curve". It becomes a deck where mid range or control decks just run a "late game suite" off of the same aggro shell (shielded minibot, knife juggler, muster, shredder) that Kripp talks about.

If we look at the truly problematic cards of the game: Mad Scientist, Mysterious Challenger, Dr. Boom, and even Shredder, we see that these cards aren't necessarily broken stat wise. Let's be honest, Handlock could drop huge stats on the board. But those huge 8/8s could still be answered. It might be hard as hell to 2 for 1 a Molten Giant, but at least you could answer it cleanly 1 for 1 with hard removal or BGH.

It's not just that these cards are powerful, it's that these cards prevent counter play.

Blizzard is a company capable of brilliant work, but they're also human and they make mistakes. The problem as it stands now is that the power curve, with respect to how fast a decent board can kill a player, means that we're going to need some really powerful reactive cards. Some might even need to have ugly, complicated card text.
 

WhiteGuts

Arcane
Joined
May 3, 2013
Messages
2,382
I dunno. I don't see that ALL cards must have an immediat counter-play. If every card could be 1-for-1'd, then people will moan about the game being boring, and calling cards like BGH "anti-fun".
 

Metro

Arcane
Beg Auditor
Joined
Aug 27, 2009
Messages
27,792
The problem is MC is usually 3 for 1 in that you'll need multiple cards plus existing minions on the board to deal with it and all of the secrets. That's broken. Period.
 
Joined
Feb 28, 2011
Messages
4,125
Location
Chicago, IL, Kwa
Somewhat OT but I did make a ladder run with a tweaked oil-rogue last season that completely destroyed every secret pally I came across. I was pretty low on ladder (ended at 9), but I feel obligated to point out that there are still decks out there that can counter it.
 

Grubba

Arcane
Joined
Jan 10, 2012
Messages
992
Don't be surprised if Blizz tries to fix the MC situation in the next set with a counter, a la Lil' Exorcist or Scarlet Purifier (hopefully not as lame as those). Something that really punishes the opponent for having secrets, like a neutral minion with "Battlecry: Deal X damage to the opponent for each secret they control" or a Harrison Jones-type card that destroys secrets and draws you cards. Call it the Inquisitor or Judicator or some shit
 

Metro

Arcane
Beg Auditor
Joined
Aug 27, 2009
Messages
27,792
Wouldn't be surprising in the least. It's how they do things and push sales of the adventures/expansions. They had some of that with GvG to counter Deathrattle but ultimately they nerfed Undertaker.
 

Andhaira

Arcane
Joined
Nov 25, 2007
Messages
1,868,993
Wait, why isn't Flare a good counter to MC? One flare destroys all enemy secrets and draws you a free card; and it is really cheap. Use a flare and follow up with deadly shot to take out the MC.

I think the reason Flare isn't being used much is because Face Hunter typically ends the game before MC can be played (aka turn 6)
 

Andhaira

Arcane
Joined
Nov 25, 2007
Messages
1,868,993
So, co-op tavern brawl tonight.

http://us.battle.net/hearthstone/en/blog/19932702#comments

I'm sensing a lot of trolling potential in this one, probably that's why you get your free pack whether you win or lose.

Question is, how will this translate into a permanent co-op mode, or arena co-op mode? The way this is going to be implemented is rather boring; both players fight against a token that switches sides every turn.
 

FeelTheRads

Arcane
Joined
Apr 18, 2008
Messages
13,716
Lolz, what an idiot I was thinking they'd actually work on having a proper coop mode instead of this dumb hack.
 

Explorerbc

Arcane
Joined
Nov 22, 2012
Messages
1,170
Well the good news are that everyone seems to be pissed at Blizzard right now.

The official reddit is full of complaints showcasing butthurt previously unheard of. A few popular content creators and pros said they are disappointed with the game and will step down.

It seems that the patron nerf actually made people more critical of Blizzard's approach to balance. Everyone is comparing Hearthstone to Diablo 3 and how shitty it was before the dev team changed and overhauled the mechanics.
 

cvv

Arcane
Patron
Joined
Mar 30, 2013
Messages
18,227
Location
Kingdom of Bohemia
Codex+ Now Streaming!
A proper coop would be cool let's hope this thing is just Blizzard testing the waters.

Well the good news are that everyone seems to be pissed at Blizzard right now.

The official reddit is full of complaints showcasing butthurt previously unheard of. A few popular content creators and pros said they are disappointed with the game and will step down.

It seems that the patron nerf actually made people more critical of Blizzard's approach to balance. Everyone is comparing Hearthstone to Diablo 3 and how shitty it was before the dev team changed and overhauled the mechanics.

Good, all that money made Brode fat and indolent, someone should spank him hard, to wake him up or kick him out. It worked with Wilson.
 

Ash_Firelord

Educated
Joined
Aug 19, 2015
Messages
80
Anyway, this was a good read concerning Mysterious Challenger among other things:

I agree with the article up until this:

Less obvious cards are also problematic
If we look under the hood, we find more, Divine Favor is a deeply problematic card. This card fundamentally punishes opponents who are fighting for Card Advantage. There's a reason that some players just feel disgust when they're on the receiving end of this card. It's not that it's just not fun, it's not that it's too strong, it's that it fundamentally violates a core aspect of the strategy in competitive card games: it punishes your opponent for gaining Card Advantage. It punishes a player for getting extra value out of his cards.

Man, Divine Favor is a really shitty card.

This is just butt-hurt. There are plenty of MTG cards that punish card advantage. And it's a legit way to make the game more interesting. You should be worried about over-committing on your hand as you worry about over-committing to the board.
 

UglyBastard

Arcane
Joined
Jun 29, 2014
Messages
821
Divine Favor is retarded and if you think it's a cool mechanic that makes the game better, then you are too.
 

Cowboy Moment

Arcane
Joined
Feb 8, 2011
Messages
4,407
Divine Favor as a concept is fine, the card is simply too extreme - it either does nothing or draws you 4+ cards for 3 mana. Jeeves, for example, is a much better realization of the same idea. There are many other cards I'd remove from HS before touching Divine Favor.

I also think that mana denial is a cool mechanic that makes card games better. Come at me.
 

UglyBastard

Arcane
Joined
Jun 29, 2014
Messages
821
The difference between Jeeves und Favor is that Jeeves rewards you for dumping your hand (while not punishing your opponent just for existing and even giving him a chance to capitalize on that too), while favors just heavily punishes your opponent for not playing the latest face aggro like he is supposed to do. It also completely circumvents the traditional weakness of aggro (running out of cards/card disadvantage for tempo).

I also don't think that it is healthy for the game that the "go to" strategy is to dump your hand as fast as possible and give the win to the player who has the better 1-2-3-4 curve.

Mana denial is fun for the person who is doing it to someone else (especially if you have sadistic tendencies), but overall it's a pretty frustrating mechanic for the person on the wrong end of it (inability to do anything paired with slow death).
 

Phage

Arcane
Manlet
Joined
Jan 10, 2010
Messages
4,696
2015
Playing or caring about Hearthstone Post-TGT

Jd5u8NV.png
 
Joined
Dec 31, 2009
Messages
6,933
^ lel phage trying to pretend he doesn't care. Someone remind him how butthurt he got when I reminded him of how much he actually cares about this game.
 

Angthoron

Arcane
Joined
Jul 13, 2007
Messages
13,056
Well, decided to give this a try on the last day of previous season, got to R18 in a couple of hours. Fun enough game. The bar brawl was an interesting concept, definitely hope for a co-op vs AI mode to be more of a mainstay attraction. Maybe with an actual hand and not just 3-card cycle for the AI, though.

Dunno about the curve, definitely is a big deal, but if you get a few board clear cards with a bad curve, or push a few nice trades, it's not quite as important. My last play of the day today went with "Hey, 7-7-4-4 replaced by 7-7-4-4!" start that ended up a pretty fun back-and-forth with an eventual win for me. Damn Dagger Jugglers can bring a lot of free damage to the table.
 

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