Grey Eminence - from SOME of the MEIOU & TAXES folk

[what am i doing]

I don't think it's a million provinces. Their map is made of tiles. These tiles are mostly hexagons, with some pentagons thrown in, because the map is a sphere.

Provinces are likely made of many tiles, the tiles are for standardising movement.

Ah, I read that tiles as in referring to provinces in the Vicky 2 sense. If the "province" unit is larger than that and encompasses a bunch of tiles then it becomes far more plausible.

 

[Axioms]

I don't think it's a million provinces. Their map is made of tiles. These tiles are mostly hexagons, with some pentagons thrown in, because the map is a sphere.

Provinces are likely made of many tiles, the tiles are for standardising movement.

Ah, I read that tiles as in referring to provinces in the Vicky 2 sense. If the "province" unit is larger than that and encompasses a bunch of tiles then it becomes far more plausible.

Each tile is simulated with populations and other stuff. A tile is about 200 sq mi, 14 by 14 miles basically. So they aren't "provinces" but they are pretty close. The question is how effective data oriented processing is. This was a big deal in MMOs a few years ago. Have to check how that turned out. In theory a proper data oriented design would be whole number multiples of performance boost.

 

[thesecret1]

I wouldn't be too worried about the number of tiles. A million tiles with some data in it isn't actually that much, provided you're managing the memory well, and even if you aren't, there are tricks to get around it. The reason why Paradox is shitting the bed with performance in their games is because it's Paradox. You can see that when they go and actually focus on improving the performance in their games (such as they did in CK2 or Stellaris), they're able to cut processing time by as much as half in some cases. The fact they have this much room for optimization suggests the code was dogshit to begin with.

 

[The Brazilian Slaughter]

I'm not liking that end-date. I smell over-ambitious project.

If they get an actual engine and not Paradox shit that cant use modern CPUs properly then it should not be an issue.

CKIII has fantastic optimization, probably the best Pdox game, optimization-wise, that I have ever seen. With some performance mods and lowering graphics across the board, I can run CKIII using a Thinkpad T430, and get 80-90 C temperatures at Speed 3. I shouldn't even be able to do that, yet I can. I can only dream of what you rich gringo folks with your NASA pcs can do with it.

Its the older second-gen Clausewitz games (HOI IV, Stellaris, etc) that run like dogshit. EUIV actually runs decently, even. Stellaris is getting better, at least, but HOI IV from what I see is not. CKII got bloated and eventually ran like dogshit until the Reapers' Due expansion, then they started doing performance improvements every patch and it runs pretty good now.

Victoria III will likely be built off the same version of the engine CKIII uses, so it will be blazing fast if you have a modern computer.

 

[Aemar]

I smell over-ambitious project.

Pretty much this. I can also feel that Realms Beyond/Ceres Games vibe in the air.

https://store.steampowered.com/news/app/1858700/view/5293421583994668368

As our team and project grew in scale, however, the cost of developing Grey Eminence outstripped our capacity to sustain it. At this point, we have exhausted not only our own life savings, but – for many of us – those of our family and friends too.

 

[FreeKaner]

This basically seems like same bloatware MEIOU & Taxes is.

 

[Axioms]

This basically seems like same bloatware MEIOU & Taxes is.

Is base EU4 not bloatware? Piles of mechanics that barely do anything and don't interact with each other in a meaningful way.

 

[FreeKaner]

This basically seems like same bloatware MEIOU & Taxes is.

Is base EU4 not bloatware? Piles of mechanics that barely do anything and don't interact with each other in a meaningful way.

Yes it is, it is simultaneously bloated and shallow. Basically abstractions upon abstractions stacked on top of each other. The game would need a clean up that merges and cleans up all its refuse of mechanics but will never get one because of its business model.

 

[Axioms]

This basically seems like same bloatware MEIOU & Taxes is.

Is base EU4 not bloatware? Piles of mechanics that barely do anything and don't interact with each other in a meaningful way.

Yes it is, it is simultaneously bloated and shallow. Basically abstractions upon abstractions stacked on top of each other. The game would need a clean up that merges and cleans up all its refuse of mechanics but will never get one because of its business model.

Ah okay. As long as we have consistency. EU5 should be dropping soon though. EU4 only came out a year after CK2.

 

[Sranchammer]

In response some recent confusion, especially from YouTube videos from content creators, we wanted to clarify that the M&T team is not developing the Grey Eminence game. We're not making a standalone game nor do we have any plans to do so. Grey Eminence was created by a separate team and had been in development long before any of us even knew of its existence. The three members of our team who have joined in on its development afterwards did so as individuals. As such, the M&T team as an entity is not collaborating on or contributing to the development of Grey Eminence.

 

[Axioms]

In response some recent confusion, especially from YouTube videos from content creators, we wanted to clarify that the M&T team is not developing the Grey Eminence game. We're not making a standalone game nor do we have any plans to do so. Grey Eminence was created by a separate team and had been in development long before any of us even knew of its existence. The three members of our team who have joined in on its development afterwards did so as individuals. As such, the M&T team as an entity is not collaborating on or contributing to the development of Grey Eminence.

Yes this was pretty well know. Well maybe if you were a casual follower you didn't.

 

[Sranchammer]

Yes this was pretty well know. Well maybe if you were a casual follower you didn't.

I am extremely casual

 

[Heroic Liberator]

Yes this was pretty well know. Well maybe if you were a casual follower you didn't.

I am extremely casual

Filthy casuals everywhere.

Spoiler

t. another casual follower (if even that)

 

[Heroic Liberator]

By the way, for those interested in upcoming non-Paradox gsgs, this might be up your alley too:

 

[Aemar]

By the way, for those interested in upcoming non-Paradox gsgs, this might be up your alley too:

It looks more reasonable in scope than Grey Eminence. Can you infiltrate a country and impose blacks and transgenders as the new elites though?

 

[Heroic Liberator]

That typo, now eternalized through your quote, is going to haunt me.

 

[Axioms]

By the way, for those interested in upcoming non-Paradox gsgs, this might be up your alley too:

I heard about this in a discord. If only it weren't post WW1. Anything after WW1 doesn't do it for me. But the abstract idea is cool.

 

[Aemar]

By the way, for those interested in upcoming non-Paradox gsgs, this might be up your alley too:

If only it weren't post WW1. Anything after WW1 doesn't do it for me.

The Cold War era is the perfect setting for this kind of game.

 

[JarlFrank]

As much as I would love to see anything or anyone challenge the monopoly Paradox has, this seems overly ambitious and the intended time span honestly makes me question the overall vision they have.

Yes, they should have made a shorter timeframe if they wanted a game that is in anyway historical at all and not just another map painter, even less connected with any reality than Paradox games are. They call it "simulation" but you can't make one set of mechanics that makes sense for all the history (or even from late medieval to modern) - unless you want something very generic. Basically a more complex Civilization. There is no third, realistic, option. Well, in theory there is one: you can try to make a game so big and so complex that it will never get done. They probably will attempt to make it and fail. Or end with the generic, boring option. At least Paradox gets one thing right - they have several games with different mechanics to portray the history at least somewhat sensibly. Imagine a game made of CK+EU+Vicky+HoI using one set of mechanics. Not a good image.

EU4 already is that game that feels super generic. It spans the 15th to early 19th centuries and yet... it doesn't capture the mood of any of these. The mechanics are extremely shallow, whether it be internal politics, diplomacy or warfare. Only events add some flavor.

 

[Serus]

As much as I would love to see anything or anyone challenge the monopoly Paradox has, this seems overly ambitious and the intended time span honestly makes me question the overall vision they have.

Yes, they should have made a shorter timeframe if they wanted a game that is in anyway historical at all and not just another map painter, even less connected with any reality than Paradox games are. They call it "simulation" but you can't make one set of mechanics that makes sense for all the history (or even from late medieval to modern) - unless you want something very generic. Basically a more complex Civilization. There is no third, realistic, option. Well, in theory there is one: you can try to make a game so big and so complex that it will never get done. They probably will attempt to make it and fail. Or end with the generic, boring option. At least Paradox gets one thing right - they have several games with different mechanics to portray the history at least somewhat sensibly. Imagine a game made of CK+EU+Vicky+HoI using one set of mechanics. Not a good image.

EU4 already is that game that feels super generic. It spans the 15th to early 19th centuries and yet... it doesn't capture the mood of any of these. The mechanics are extremely shallow, whether it be internal politics, diplomacy or warfare. Only events add some flavor.

I agree, EU/4 is their most generic game and series. Still my point stands. It is easier and more realistic to portray a smaller period of time in an interesting and at the same time historical manner than a longer one. The fact that EU4 is what it is only means that Paradox didn't know how or didn't want to make EU more like their other, less generic titles. I never said that Paradox was particularly good at doing grand strategy historical games nor that they care to. They mostly make funny map painters. They just don't have many strong competitors. I said however that their approach itself - dividing history into several games - was correct. I also say in other part of the forum that less story and more gameplay is better for crpgs. Doesn't mean that all crpgs with little story are good. But the approach itself is.

 

[JarlFrank]

EU4 is also the most wide of all their games when it comes to covering time periods and cultures, so it only proves your point.

It goes from renaissance through reformation through age of enlightenment to Napoleonic wars and covers the entire world which includes vastly culturally different Native Americans (both north and south), Europeans, Muslims, Africans, Indians, Chinese, Steppe People etc.

CK2 only made some of those cultures playable through later patches and DLCs, making sure to give all of them unique mechanics and flavor. Playing Muslims vs Pagans vs Christians vs steppe riders feels very different in CK2. But in the EU games, they all follow the same basic ruleset, just with various bonuses and maluses tacked on. The end result is a game where playing the Aztecs in pre-columbian America feels the same as playing a minor German state during the 30 Years War or a Japanese Daimyo during the Sengoku period.

 

[Axioms]

I agree, EU/4 is their most generic game and series. Still my point stands. It is easier and more realistic to portray a smaller period of time in an interesting and at the same time historical manner than a longer one. The fact that EU4 is what it is only means that Paradox didn't know how or didn't want to make EU more like their other, less generic titles. I never said that Paradox was particularly good at doing grand strategy historical games nor that they care to. They mostly make funny map painters. They just don't have many strong competitors. I said however that their approach itself - dividing history into several games - was correct. I also say in other part of the forum that less story and more gameplay is better for crpgs. Doesn't mean that all crpgs with little story are good. But the approach itself is.

CRPGs with less pre-written story and more gameplay eh? Putting you in my .txt file.

EU4 is also the most wide of all their games when it comes to covering time periods and cultures, so it only proves your point.

It goes from renaissance through reformation through age of enlightenment to Napoleonic wars and covers the entire world which includes vastly culturally different Native Americans (both north and south), Europeans, Muslims, Africans, Indians, Chinese, Steppe People etc.

CK2 only made some of those cultures playable through later patches and DLCs, making sure to give all of them unique mechanics and flavor. Playing Muslims vs Pagans vs Christians vs steppe riders feels very different in CK2. But in the EU games, they all follow the same basic ruleset, just with various bonuses and maluses tacked on. The end result is a game where playing the Aztecs in pre-columbian America feels the same as playing a minor German state during the 30 Years War or a Japanese Daimyo during the Sengoku period.

I disagree with this. While certainly the Crusader Kings trilogy is superior to the Europa Universalis Quartet the cultures really don't play that different, even i CK2. Of course with no competition perhaps people don't know what they are missing.

Based on some discussion with Jordan on GE I think even GE really doesn't try to portray the true differences in various culture groups much more than Paradox games. Jordan implied for instance that they can't represent the difference between a late medieval European serf and an Imperial Roman colonus. Which is pretty lame IMO.

Of course it is no good simulating distinct burial practices or selections of common grave goods because that is perhaps a little too fine a level of detail. But I think the level exactly between that and something like CK2 is the ideal level to target.