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Good 4x games to recommend

ecliptic

Liturgist
Joined
Feb 11, 2003
Messages
915
I think Alpha Centauri would be rough to handle without a manual, but that's just me.

Master of Magic is one of my favorite PC games, period. Maybe I'll fire that up.

Age of Wonders 2 is good fun, much like a somewhat simplified MoM with a campaign and prettier graphics.

Imperium Galactica 2 is also a grand ol' time, I really love the ambience and the graphics and music. The gameplay is pretty fun and very smoothly blends many disparate modes together.
 

ecliptic

Liturgist
Joined
Feb 11, 2003
Messages
915
Anyone's take on Space Empires? How about Emperor of the Fading Suns?

Why is Moo3 not worth my time?
 

Shuma

Scholar
Joined
Feb 26, 2008
Messages
208
Helton said:
edit: Dominions 3 is a great game to learn. Really fun going through the manual and trying to make a nation strategy that seems flawless. But then:

Maybe I'm just an idiot, but having so little control over how a battle progresses really blows. For normal units, sure it's easy. But for mages? Which, I gather, are the focal point of advanced play. Too many wasted gems! Is there a way to make them just stop casting? Say I want him to cast a battle-wide precision buff every battle so my dwarves can hurl stones like good lil' archers? After he casts that, he'll just decide to cast uber-wind-of-death and use up all his gems.

Or I'm prepping for an important battle, so I tell him to cast uber-wind-of-death and then get hit by a random scout and have wasted the spell. It sucks.

So I say screw gems and big spells like that and play Mictlan with bless strategy. But that's only fun for so long.

Still, not to deter you from the game, I played it for tens of hours before I hit the point where this started to bug me. Definitely worth the $50 or $60.

There are some things you can do to make your armies fight better and your mages do what you want. I think that's one of the more brilliant things about the game. The combat system is really pretty simple and it seems like there isn't much you can do to control the flow of a battle, but in reality, army placement and orders can make or break entire conflicts easily.

I'd recommend you designate some gem carriers. It's common practice in multiplayer to have scouts roam around with your major spellcasters to function as carriers so that the waste you describe doesn't occur. Script the few power spells that you want to go off in the first couple turns, and then let the AI do its thing without worry that piles of gems will be wasted. The turn after the fight, transfer a couple more gems to your guy and you're good to go for the next one. It's micromanage-y and kind of a pain, but it's a sure way to insure no gems are wasted. You can also script those few spells and then Retreat, but you will have to move him back with your main force next turn. Finally, you could script an Attack after those big spells, but then you risk him in combat, and he won't be casting anymore damage spells.

These are all high-level-multiplayer-type strategies. Most of this isn't necessary against the computer except on the highest difficulty levels.

The scout situation you described is rare, and I'd chalk that up to bad luck as much as anything.

Overall, I'd say the main weakness of the game is in the interface. The depth of play, especially in multiplayer, is phenomenal. But unfortunately, there's a lot of extra work the player has to do to really fully utilize their forces, such as what I described above. And as much as I love Dom3 multiplayer, setting up and getting in a game is an onerous process, since there's no internal matchmaking software within the game. Plus, a game can take months to complete, and requires constant attention or else you risk missing turns and possibly getting booted from the game.

It really is a fantastic game, though. Kitting out your supercombatants, planning massive artillery mage strikes, teleporting in army-smashing golems, unleashing Iron Dragons to trample your foes into dust, building a perfect bless strategy... there's a depth here that just isn't present in any game I've played. You could spend hours figuring out what pretender you want to use.

Plus, the mythology and setting of the world is original and interesting. No orcs or elves here (I admit some dwarves snuck in somehow ;) )!
 

Helton

Arcane
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Ah, why'd I never think of that? Thanks, that scout-carrying-gems thing sounds like exactly what I needed. Next time I play I can finally take my Vanheim strategy up a notch.
 

MaskedMartyr

Liturgist
Joined
Jan 21, 2008
Messages
472
ecliptic said:
Anyone's take on Space Empires? How about Emperor of the Fading Suns?

Why is Moo3 not worth my time?

EotFS has an interface just a tiny bit better than Moo3's. But the setting itself is more interesting than even SMAC, and the hex-based movement reminds me of war games which this game prides itself with in particular (nearly 2/3rds of the researches have something to do with warfare). The diplomacy in the game is satisfactory enough for single-player.

I.e. think SMAC but with way more guns, interplanetary movement, and an economy you actually have to defend. Also you can't make your own unit types, but the ones they have in the game are pretty imaginative/useful anyways.

Space Empires is just completely imbalanced, cue the resources statement. Ship construction is basically the crux of this game, it can be ridiculously bogged down, and with the 5th iteration its even more complex, but if you get used to it, it can be an interesting experience on its own. I absolutely hate the Space Empires 5 interface though. They should have kept with IV's interface, that worked out just fine.
 

ecliptic

Liturgist
Joined
Feb 11, 2003
Messages
915
Ah. Thanks for the insights.

On an off topic/tangental note, I think I'm going to give Space Rangers 2 a go. :)
 

Zeus

Cipher
Joined
Apr 25, 2008
Messages
1,523
Jasede said:
Please observe as I end the thread with a simple name:

Master of Magic.

There. Thread over. Thank you!
*bows*

Amen, Brother Jasede!

Seboss said:

Every time I read a MoM-lovin'-thread, Dominions comes up.

Is it really that good, and if so, where should I get started at in the series?

Can I buy Dominions 1 and relive the glory days of "Seeking the Spell of Mastery"?

Or is it more like Age of Wonders, where the first one wasn't much like MoM and the sequels progressively cloned it, adding wizards towers and such?
 

Fez

Erudite
Joined
May 18, 2004
Messages
7,954
It is a good game. I'd suggest getting Dominions 3 (Dom 2 was fun too), or at least trying the demo I linked to earlier first. It's not a MoM clone by any means, although it is the sort of game that a MoM fan is likely to appreciate. It has been well supported by the developers and modders.
 

Zeus

Cipher
Joined
Apr 25, 2008
Messages
1,523
Hey. Are there any 4X games with turn-based tactical combat?

Whenever I'm iinterested in a new 4X game (Dominions, GalCiv II, etc), I find out it has non-interactive/real time combat.

I've read a million reasons why tactical combat "ruins" a 4X game, but I find it highly enjoyable. Master of Magic had an auto battle option and I only used it when I was impaitent or overwhelmed. I can't imagine playing a whole game of MoM without the tactical combat. You got to do all your empire building sim city exploration stuff, then "zoom in" to a battle and handle things on that level too. And if tactical combat wasn't your thing, you could just turn it off in the options menu.

So yeah, if someone can suggest a 4x game with tactical combat, I'll snatch it up. :)

P.S. Is Space Empires IV Deluxe any good? It looks like it's the closest thing to MOO/MOM.
 

mondblut

Arcane
Joined
Aug 10, 2005
Messages
22,251
Location
Ingrija
Zeus said:
Every time I read a MoM-lovin'-thread, Dominions comes up.

Is it really that good, and if so, where should I get started at in the series?

Can I buy Dominions 1 and relive the glory days of "Seeking the Spell of Mastery"?

Or is it more like Age of Wonders, where the first one wasn't much like MoM and the sequels progressively cloned it, adding wizards towers and such?

Dominions comes up because it's also a massive fantasy strategy game with a lot of combat magic, summons and global enchantments, not because it is similar to MOM in gameplay. In truth, gameplay-wise Dominions is more of a fantasy take on VGA Planets. Large-scale non-interactive battles vs small-scale tactical ones, very little building vs building a lot, no diplomacy vs pacts, spell exchanges and so on; the two games are very dissimilar, the only thing in common is tons of great magic.

As for Dom1, the series are effectively the string of remakes. Each subsequent game is the same as the previous, only with improved graphics (not even the case with Dom2>3 transition), more polished interface and more nations/units/spells/sites/etc. So you absolutely don't need Dom1 unless your PC can't handle Dom2 or 3. 2 and 3 are pretty much identical. Dom3 is bigger and more polished, but there are features I strongly object against (splitting the races on "3 ages" instead of selecting any version of any race in any game as per Dom2).

And no, there is no literal spell of mastery in Dominions. There are some very overpowered high-level globals though, particularly if you play undead or darkvision races.
 

Fez

Erudite
Joined
May 18, 2004
Messages
7,954
It is worth pointing out that in multiplayer you can take part in diplomacy, exchange items and so on. It seems to be quite an active group.
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
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Zeus said:
Hey. Are there any 4X games with turn-based tactical combat?

Whenever I'm iinterested in a new 4X game (Dominions, GalCiv II, etc), I find out it has non-interactive/real time combat.

I've read a million reasons why tactical combat "ruins" a 4X game, but I find it highly enjoyable. Master of Magic had an auto battle option and I only used it when I was impaitent or overwhelmed. I can't imagine playing a whole game of MoM without the tactical combat. You got to do all your empire building sim city exploration stuff, then "zoom in" to a battle and handle things on that level too. And if tactical combat wasn't your thing, you could just turn it off in the options menu.

So yeah, if someone can suggest a 4x game with tactical combat, I'll snatch it up. :)

P.S. Is Space Empires IV Deluxe any good? It looks like it's the closest thing to MOO/MOM.

Space Empires IV Deluxe is pretty good. Athmosphere-wise it's nothing compared to the awesome MOO2, but it has turn-based tactical combat, while Space Empires V has real-time tactical combat [but is generally a better game, in my opinion]. Try out both. For the older Space Empires titles... heck, I don't even know if they ever existed. No idea what they are like. Probably not woth mentioning, as not even their own website says anything about the SE games before IV.

And I seriously want the next Civ game to have tactical combat, no matter if turn-based or real time. Or at least the ability to attack and defend with multiple units at once. Combat is the only thing that rather sucks in Civ, compared to most other games.
 

Fez

Erudite
Joined
May 18, 2004
Messages
7,954
Who can forget those infuriating moments when your tanks were wiped out by spearmen?
 

OSK

Arcane
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Fez said:
Who can forget those infuriating moments when your tanks were wiped out by spearmen?

That was fixed, for the most part, in Civ 4.
 

mondblut

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JarlFrank said:
Space Empires IV Deluxe is pretty good. Athmosphere-wise it's nothing compared to the awesome MOO2, but it has turn-based tactical combat, while Space Empires V has real-time tactical combat [but is generally a better game, in my opinion]. Try out both. For the older Space Empires titles... heck, I don't even know if they ever existed. No idea what they are like. Probably not woth mentioning, as not even their own website says anything about the SE games before IV.

I played SE3 (or maybe it was 2 even). Pretty much the same features, but very minimalistic, default windows graphics. Looked like Stars with more micromanagement.

Somehow I always found the SE series incredibly dull, even though they supposedly had everything a 4x space game should have. Maybe it has to do with "level 35 in beam weapons" instead of "real" technologies with unique names, features and descriptions like MOO had. Researching a new kind of cannon is a helluva lot more interesting than getting an umpteen level of it for +5% more damage. Maybe it was a lego-style ship construction (somehow just filling a list with components until ship size is full is far more appealing than dropping icons on some silly grid). Maybe castrated building algorythm where you just fill planets with 20 factories, mines or whatever instead of actually developing them (even though it realistically makes more sense than trying to make a generic habitable planet out of a huge ingot of uranium).

And I seriously want the next Civ game to have tactical combat, no matter if turn-based or real time. Or at least the ability to attack and defend with multiple units at once. Combat is the only thing that rather sucks in Civ, compared to most other games.

Have you played Civ: Call To Power (2)? It had unit stacks of up to 8 or 9 and combat resolved on tactical grid, even though you couldn't control it.
 

Fez

Erudite
Joined
May 18, 2004
Messages
7,954
OldSkoolKamikaze said:
Fez said:
Who can forget those infuriating moments when your tanks were wiped out by spearmen?

That was fixed, for the most part, in Civ 4.

It only took four games and about fourteen years for them to mostly get it right. Amazing.
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
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Fez said:
OldSkoolKamikaze said:
Fez said:
Who can forget those infuriating moments when your tanks were wiped out by spearmen?

That was fixed, for the most part, in Civ 4.

It only took four games and about fourteen years for them to mostly get it right. Amazing.

The spearmen are Spartans. Not even tanks have a chance against Spartans.
 

Korgan

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Dom3 is mind-blowing. It has an actual Horrible Cursed Undead Empire of Doom which isn't just an average race with everything in black n purple and a few weak necromancy spells. Instead, you control huge, free, ever-growing hordes of undead as your unholy influence kills off and raises the population. No need to worry about resourses, gold or supplies either - just research badass spells and pwn mortals with your uber god you built with all the points from a crappy dominion that only fucks up your neighbours. An Ermor (that's what it's called) AI, given time, WILL destroy all the other AI races. Also, there are the often werid and creepy demons you sacrifice virgins to summon, R'lyeh with some Cthulhu Mythos stuff going for it and the Horrors from the Void which forever mark their target so sooner or later it WILL has its soul devoured, by the first Lesser Horror it sees if a footman or by a giant levitating fish skull if a god.
 

Nedrah

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Mar 14, 2005
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Germany
I've seriously tried my hands on Imperium Galactica 2, which is a sweet game, even on XPsp3 with the fanpatch 1.14 applied. Still, it's also incredebly frustrating - I basically pulled an all nighter to try and build an empire, which I _thought_ I had finally got right after about 10 restarts. Then, sometime in the morning hours, a new race was discovered in the universe. Turns out they didn't like me at all AND had a huge freaking fleet going.

Spies seem to be all but useless, even though I did read elsewhere that using them is absolutely essential - still, even after pouring ressources equivalent to a fully teched battleship into my guy's training, he still gets a success chance somewhere between 0 and 2 % for even more basic missions. I must be missing some kind of gameplay mechanic there.

Also, it seems to be pretty much impossible to keep a bigger empire defended. I mean, I could fortify my planets with fun stuff like planetary guns or laser forts and stock them with grav-tanks - but that would mean a lot less ressources going into research and building / maintaining a decent main fleet. There's no real point to just leaving a few ships in orbit around your planets, as they will just get whiped out by any semi-decent invasion fleet.

On the other hand, the game has a storyline, 3 campaigns for 3 different races and fun random events - and the battles, although simplistic and realtime, still are interesting to do. I just need some better tactics and understanding of the mechanics - anyone remember what they did to win...?
 

Fez

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Messages
7,954
Korgan said:
Dom3 is mind-blowing. It has an actual Horrible Cursed Undead Empire of Doom which isn't just an average race with everything in black n purple and a few weak necromancy spells. Instead, you control huge, free, ever-growing hordes of undead as your unholy influence kills off and raises the population. No need to worry about resourses, gold or supplies either - just research badass spells and pwn mortals with your uber god you built with all the points from a crappy dominion that only fucks up your neighbours. An Ermor (that's what it's called) AI, given time, WILL destroy all the other AI races. Also, there are the often werid and creepy demons you sacrifice virgins to summon, R'lyeh with some Cthulhu Mythos stuff going for it and the Horrors from the Void which forever mark their target so sooner or later it WILL has its soul devoured, by the first Lesser Horror it sees if a footman or by a giant levitating fish skull if a god.

Mass priests is great fun against the Ermor tides. Watch the near-nukes of banishment spells go off through the undead ranks and hope and pray that your infantry screen can hold the hordes back long enough for the ranks to be thinned out. When Ermor is up and running it is a big struggle and battles with over a thousand undead are common. I played Jotunheim VS Ermor recently and had small numbers of very powerful and large elite and expensive giants battling the massive numbers of cheap and small fragile skeletons. At one point I was holding the Ermor tides back on a bottleneck of the map so I could raise an army for the counter-offensive. It was like the 300 Spartans all over again. What made it interesting was as the war raged on over the same patch of land the enemy was raising more powerful undead giants due to all my war dead.

Fighting through old Ermor territory is made all the more difficult as they spread their influence of death and reduce the value and supplies of the land, meaning living armies starve.

I had a treasured prophet eventually wiped out due to a horror mark. Anything marked by that is truly damned. Not even a full complement of magic equipment and gems or the bodyguards could help in the end from that evil floating tentacle head thing.

Random maps are a big plus for Dom3 too.
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
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Fez said:
Random maps are a big plus for Dom3 too.

Any 4x game without random maps seriously lacks something, anyways.
 

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