Vault Dweller said:
It's your game, so I guess it's your right to follow countless other developers into the "perfect game"...
Because that's what the industry suffers from. "Perfect" games that were in development too long.
Classic VD. If you can't address my point, then just chop out words until it becomes a point you can address? The thing about the "perfect game" black hole is that perfect games never come out. Sometimes (like Grimoire) no games come out, and other times (like Battlecruiser) a miserable mishmash of bugs and unfinished features are released.
... but that's not what gamers want or need. We'd much rather have a stream of flawed but improving indie games.
I guess that's what Feargus thought when he started his slam-dank series. Gamers would rather have a steam of flawed games than a few "perfect" ones. We all know how that story ended.
What perfect games have you played lately? Troika released a series of very flawed gems, PtD was a very buggy gem, Witcher is a gem with some design flaws, NWN2 has more flaws than a Wal-Mart engagement ring, Eschalon is a fun if not terribly impressive throwback, and Vogels paint-by-numbers games are enjoyed by many gamers.
Iron Tower missed a great opportunity to release AoD as a modest little indie game...
... and then go out of business Zero-Sum style.
You have made $0 over the past 27+ months of delays (and at least 5 more). The first version of AoD might not have bought the teams a fleet of BMWs (or even 1), but it would have covered the cost of download bandwidth.
... and use the resulting feedback to make a second more ambitious game.
The market is unforgiving to indie games. While a real studio can make a game like Dungeon Lords and survive to make another Dungeon Lords game, we can't. Indies live or die by their first game. Considering that I really, really want to leave my job and start making games for a living, can you blame me for taking my time to do it right? It's not like I'm collecting pre-orders here.
Bullshit. Indie developers only live or die by their first game if it is released at the point where they are no longer willing to do it for free. Obviously your team has not reached that point now, let alone 2 years ago. And you've performed and discarded enough work to have released AoD and have a sequel as far along as AoD is now.
Part 2
obediah said:
As a business venture, it is a disaster. I found an announced demo release date of September 2005. Games intended to feed people rarely survive a 2+ year delay, and break even even less.
It's our first project. The development time includes switching to a new engine, customizing that engine, making mistakes, learning what works and what doesn't, becoming "experienced" for the lack of a better word.
I understand that a first project is almost always going to be rough. That is why nearly everyone strongly suggests a small first project. So the price paid to learn all those lessons is much less.
I stand by my two evaluations. As an after-work project, AoD's development history isn't so bad. The criticism you quoted clearly references the context of a business venture ( i.e. paid employees, looking for a profit).
To be brutally honest, he hasn't (with AoD) demonstrated the skills required to succeed in that sort of endeavor. I'm optimistic that AoD will be great game but the project has been managed poorly. Maybe VD has learned from AoD, and his next game will managed better. But as is, there is no way I'd hand him a bag of money to make a game.
A project leader delivers a high quality product on time and on budget....
What a load of crap. I haven't seen many software projects, including games, that were delivered on time, on budget, and in a "high quality" state). Hellgate London anyone? Bloodlines? KOTOR 2? Btw, what do all these games have in common? They were developed by very experienced teams working full time and knowing what they are doing.
Well again you cut out the paragraph where I explain some of the reasons game projects are rarely managed exceptionally. Uncompetitive pay, team turnover, unrealistic funding and demands from publisher, among other things. No project manager can foresee all publisher asshattery or other problems. but they can and should be the hard-assed difference between being a bit behind on Q&A and having everyone working 80 hour weeks 3 months after due date franticly slashing unfinished or problem features and coping with a bug list that isn't getting smaller.
Now, compare it to our situation. Nobody had any experience. Nobody worked on the game full time. We did it over the internet. If you ask me, it's a fucking miracle that we made it that far.
Calm down tiger. I didn't say you were incapable of such things, only that AoD doesn't demonstrate them. Maybe you have all the skills required to manage a funded, scheduled software project, but AoD is far from proof of that.