Fable II

[A user named cat]

All this talk about bounded worlds made me think of Dark City.

That is one movie that should've had a game based upon its premise. Someone like Starbreeze needs to get on it.

 

[burrie]

Currently watching my girlfriend lay it. Seems like a nice game, methinks I'll try it out later on.

 

[Deleted member 7219]

Nobody on the Codex has a girlfriend.

 

[Castanova]

Currently watching my girlfriend lay it.

Your girlfriend is a dirty girl, isn't she?

 

[Walkin' Dude]

Your mom is a dirty girl, isn't she?

Fixed.

 

[sabishii]

This

Can anyone tell if the "growing up" part is actually good in any way now? In the first it was just about good or evil points. Also, will you just end up being a "master of all trades" like in the first?

and this

Are there areas with continuously respawning bandits that you have to fight your way through every time you want to walk between two towns? Because that would be a deal-breaker for me.

 

[Fat Dragon]

This

Can anyone tell if the "growing up" part is actually good in any way now? In the first it was just about good or evil points. Also, will you just end up being a "master of all trades" like in the first?

and this

Are there areas with continuously respawning bandits that you have to fight your way through every time you want to walk between two towns? Because that would be a deal-breaker for me.

Aging is done differently in this game. You start out as a kid. Then a story scene happens and time advances ten years. Then later on another story scene happens and time advances another ten years. You can be a master of all trades if you want or you can just focus in one area. Stat upgrades cost a fucking shitload though once you get into the higher levels. Good and evil stats are still there, but there's also now a corrupt and pure stats. So you could be a corrupt good guy, evil but fair guy, etc.

Yes, areas do have respawning enemies in the areas between tows. If you've already finished exploring that area though you can just quick travel between region to region. Though if you don't like RPGs with lots of combat then you hould just skip Fable 2 because there's a lot of it.

Anyways, saw some more long-term cnc. A bandit camp that I'd invested money in to help turning it into a respectable town paid off because after I came back to it ten years later it had become a profitable tourist attraction and I earned around 15k gold. Another one was a temple I'd chosen to help out, doing so allowed it to grow more powerful and it now has it's crappy old church turned into an expensive looking cathedral and their beliefs have spread further. Very nice.

 

[Barrow_Bug]

Just bought it yesterday and lo and behold, the tutorial had a bug and I had to replay it. Really fucked up the opening for me, not like it's a long section. But I like easing into a world. Learn to code, you fucks.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Anyways, saw some more long-term cnc. A bandit camp that I'd invested money in to help turning it into a respectable town paid off because after I came back to it ten years later it had become a profitable tourist attraction and I earned around 15k gold. Another one was a temple I'd chosen to help out, doing so allowed it to grow more powerful and it now has it's crappy old church turned into an expensive looking cathedral and their beliefs have spread further. Very nice.

And "not obvious" cnc?

 

[made]

Pretty sure it was that way for more than just Ultima IX. I know for certain it was that way in Ultima VII and Ultima VI. Before that, I can't remember, but I think it was, maybe even since Ultima I.

Actually, Britannia in Ultima VI was flat, surrounded by the impassable void. It wouldn't have made sense otherwise, what with the Gargoyle world being on the opposite side and all. Thinking of it, it didn't make much sense in V and VII either, as Britannia is supposed to be just a continent, not the entirety of the world, iirc. Was still a nice touch, though, logic aside.

No, Britannia is a world - it has no other continents. Was different before the Age of Darkness, but beginning with Ultima IV it's a world by itself.

Is that so? Where does the Serpent Isle fit in then? That's a huge landmass somewhere off the area shown on the maps.

 

[burrie]

So she just got to a sequence in the Spire, and I have to say... wow. Molyneux crafted something very good here.

Spoiler

I'll just give a few bullet points here...

- The PC went underground to join the enemy's forces. Think Korriban in KotOR

- Basically, the sequence takes years. It starts out as a couple of weeks, then months, and finally it's speaking about years passing. I rather like it taking such a long timespan, shows how big this undertaking is, unlike Korriban's short infiltration.

- What I find interesting: Disobeying an order from the evil guys leads to XP loss. Obeying an order and doing an evil act leads to no loss. ie. Good has to sacrifice something to stick to their morals.

- However, it seems that the finale is just an easy way out.

She's currently in the middle of the sequence and heading towards the end. Quite a memorable set piece.

 

[DoppelG]

Andyman Messiah: If your requirement for an open world is that there be no boundary, it cannot ever exist in a computer game. Otherwise, if you can't recognize the difference between a box with barriers in it and a hallway there's just no help for you.

You can give the player as much room as he needs to go from A to B. I don't care. It's still the same thing. I suppose there isn't any hope for me.

There is no such thing as an open world in a video game. Why? Because there are limits. The world is limited, the world has an end and more importantly the AREAS that the world is MADE UP OF has an end somewhere and you're either greeted by a sign that says "you've reached the end of the world, turn away!", a wall or some deadly water that looks like water but is actually LAVA!! LAVA, SARVIS, LAVA!!

Boundaries, Sarvis. It's all about those damn boundaries. Now, obviously this is all a matter of opinion. I'm sure there's even some philosophy in it. I don't really care.

Uh? Isn't it supposed to be "there is no such thing as an open world, period" ?
Trying to define what "open" is is utterly retarded, yes you who are trying to define what it is has to be an utter moron for trying to do so.
The point is my friend, does it FEEL open. Did you see what i did there? I empathized the word "FEEL" instead of "open".
Fable 1 felt boxed in because it didn't give you any "logical reasons" for not being able to "jump the fence". In an other sense Oblivion, which apparently many see as being a truly "open" game world felt equally boxed in, the reason is that Oblivion lacked in ANY natural boundaries, the quickest way to anything ALWAYS WAS a straight line, (disregarding fast travel stupidity) until you physical hit the boundaries of the box where you, apart from being able to see beyond it, were disallowed from doing so without any logical reasoning why this is so. This, the reason why Fable 1 felt boxed in was that the only way towards anything was an OBVIOUS narrow pathway which could not be diverted from (without it feeling OBVIOUS, yes, a good game makes you feel a OBVIOUS diverted path as not being OBVIOUS to the player, thats the skill of creating what feels like an OPEN world). The player felt it was the obvious boundary defining the world.
In Oblivions case the game empathized the unnatural square and illogical box defining the entire world by not giving the player ANY (obvious) natural boundaries which "could be" diverted from (through smart level design).

So anyways, does Fable 2 feel boxed in (like Fable 1 and 2 did) or does it feel open?

 

[Fat Dragon]

Just finished up the game. Ending segment was very satisfying, really loved how the confrontation with the villain turned out. Most will probably hate it but I liked it.

Massive end game spoilers be here.

Spoiler

The villain turns out to be just an ordinary man. He has no magical super powers or weapon of world destroying. He's just a manipulative old man with a flintlock pistol. The fucker literally goes down in a single hit. Was very satisfying to watch the bastard fall to his doom. Of course, it's completely possible for you to not kill him but I didn't go down that route so no idea how that turns out. Also liked the three choices you're given at the end. And it still leaves some room for a sequel. Good news.

Another thing I liked about the game was its save system. There is no load game option and it's constantly auto-saving on your character's single save file. It's completely impossible to abuse the old reload trick often used to get the best results. If you fuck something up, well tough, you've gotta live with that fuck up now.

 

[dagorkan]

So far it's only been leading me on the straight and narrow path, yes.

Did you look around?

It's still not as open as something like GTA, but it's light years ahead of Fable. Just walking from the first major city to the second town I ended up spending a couple hours exploring an abandoned inn, an abandoned mine and some ruined railway areas. All of which were off the path for where I was going.

Lalala, I'm walking on a path, lalala. Oh hey, there's a house! There's a dungeon! I'll pop in and say hello! Lalala, monsters slain loot collected, lalala! Back to the path again, lalala!!

Just like Fable 1.

No, not really. Not at all. In Fable you couldn't even jump a fence, there was just the narrow pathway. Now, yes, there is a path. You follow it to the goal... but the area itself is open and you can wander around aimlessly. You know, unless you're a retard.

Well, I'm a retard then. I'll put it in my signature.

Alright, game design with Andyman Messiah. Sit the fuck down.

:!: In Fable 1 you had paths. You had to follow them. End of story. That's boxed in. In Fable 2 you now have a big area where you can move around. But don't let that fool you, because that's also boxed in!
: But Andyman Messiah! That doesn't sound very boxed in to me! It doesn't sound very boxed in at all!
:!: No Billy!
: What?
:!: Your name is now Billy. Deal with it.
: Okay!
:!: Boxed in-ness comes in a dozen of different flavours and shapes! To explain, let's have a look at a few of them!
: Gee willikers, Andyman Messiah! You're a nice guy!
:!: Hahaha! Yes, I am, Billy!

:!: First on my list is KOTOR! Now, KOTOR mainly have grey corridors but the first game is notable for a big square shaped desert! Some people called this open and vast! These people, Billy, RAPE CHILDREN!!
: Golly, I don't like people that rape children. That sounds scary.
:!: Indeed it is, Billy. Indeed it is. The reason that these people are raping innocent children is because while the map might be big, it's still just a square which you can, literally, walk on. Be sure you take into account that you have to walk around certain things.

:!: The Legend of Zelda introduced huge areas of land.
: Why didn't you make a Monty Python-joke, Andyman?
:!: Because Graham Chapman died for our sins!
: I would trade my mother for Graham Chapman.
:!: So would I, Billy. So would I.
: So what's wrong with Zelda?
:!: Fable 2's areas have possibly most in common with Zelda's huge tracts of land.
: Giggle!
:!: Oh Billy, if only everyone else had your sense of humor! Well, anyway! Zelda-games are often quite large, but you'll find that if you move to the leftest side of the left side on the left side of the area, you won't go any further.
: Gasp!
:!: And if you go to the rightest side of the righ...
: Gasp!
:!: Indeed, Billy. Indeed. The only exception is when you can enter another area! Okay?
: I think I get it, mister Messiah.

:!: Just to hammer that nail in, let's look at GTA!
: Which one?
:!: The one where 90% of all the white players only dared to tune in to the radio station hosted by Axl Rose, Billy!
: Is that some GTA San Andreas?
:!: Have a cookie, Billy!
: Yay!
:!: Now, San Andreas is big! But is it so big that it's limit-less?
: No?
:!: Exactly! San Andreas is an ISLAND surrounded by WATER!
: Oh...

:!: Now, what recurring theme do you find here, Billy? Think really hard. You can do it!
: Um... that they're all just areas boxed in by some kind of wall, be it an actual wall or a tree or two trees or an entire forest or half a forest or a burnt down forest or a picture of a forest or...
:!: Exactly! And what can we safely say that the term "open-ended" is?
: Completely retarded?
:!: Yes!
: Wait a minute, mister Messiah. Are you saying there is no such thing as an open-ended game?
:!: That would be correct!
: Wow, I think we can end this lesson right now.
:!: Indeed we can. Now let's go out and play in traffic. You have certainly earned it, Billy.
: Yay!


tl;dr version: I should be considered retarded for having to explain this shit to you, Sarvis. The only games I would consider "open-ended" are some space sims/space exploration games.

I like your style and look forward to your future Socratic dialogs with young Billy. Very educational

 

[dagorkan]

Pretty sure it was that way for more than just Ultima IX. I know for certain it was that way in Ultima VII and Ultima VI. Before that, I can't remember, but I think it was, maybe even since Ultima I.

Actually, Britannia in Ultima VI was flat, surrounded by the impassable void. It wouldn't have made sense otherwise, what with the Gargoyle world being on the opposite side and all. Thinking of it, it didn't make much sense in V and VII either, as Britannia is supposed to be just a continent, not the entirety of the world, iirc. Was still a nice touch, though, logic aside.

No, Britannia is a world - it has no other continents. Was different before the Age of Darkness, but beginning with Ultima IV it's a world by itself.

Anyway, I don't really think a torus-shaped world is that much better than a flat world. Problem is that a spherical world can no longer be descriped isometrically by a rectangle. Trying to map a rectangle to a sphere leads to hilarity like the giant ice caps of Civ 4.

Still, it's somewhat more difficult to code but can be done. Didn't Popolous 3 have spherical worlds?

I'm pretty sure Civ4 has both Toroids and Spheres... I have seen the two options in custom game setup and remember one of my first games unless I'm imagining things I could spin the world around. Don't know how they implemented it with the squares, I exclusively play with flat bounded maps... I find having a whole world is too much, I'm not a fan of the sandbox 'concept', I'm normally content with scenario type gameplay in RPGs as well as strategy games and everything else.

In any case open-endedness often is an excuse for dumbing down... since with a 'closed', limited world you can see what you get and judge what's there, I believe huge worlds are created to obfuscate more basic flaws because a lot of idiots are impressed by the concept of scale. I prefer a shorter and more focussed game that I'll actually want to finish so I can replay rather than a huge boring world that I'll only play once.

 

[burrie]

For the record, I really like how coop gameplay is working in the game. The ability for me to quickly jump in my girlfriend's game while she is playing is very nice, I can get a bit of XP and gold for my character, and we can just play for a bit. Camera needs a bit of work, and I dislike that I can't use my character's look, but other than that... it's a fantastic feature.

Also, having played a few hours from the start m'self, I'll have to say that's the dog is also a very nice creature. Well done.