Europa Universalis IV

[Delterius]

you can pay the best advisors and outtech everyone

this is eu4, not 3. you can't do that anymore.

I did that pretty often in EU4.

 

[MadMaxHellfire]

then you're an idiot, because especially military tech boni are barely noticeable (past some of the earliest ones) and come at a monsterly severe high price in points. there's no "4 morale attack galloglaigh" moment in eu4, while in 3 reaching that early could mean obliterating everything (because of that, as venice i could dismantle hre in 1480).
actually it's much more efficient to run late in techs so there's a whole lot of points to spend for everything else.

 

[Delterius]

Actually, even if you save points you'll likely create windows of opportunity to out tech the incompetent AI and at least gain a further edge against coalitions. Especially since snowballing is so quick in EU4. I'm sure you can do it too if you try hard enough.

 

[Mortmal]

you can pay the best advisors and outtech everyone

this is eu4, not 3. you can't do that anymore.

You can still do that marginally for the western nation, and completely outclass other tech groups.A few levels are still noticeable, you will need that to completelly crush muslim armies .Now i wont spent at 200% penalty and will spend the points to develop coastal and trade node provinces mainly as a republic. Just tried novgorod , it never have been easier.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Not sure if it's the Extended Timeline mod, or just Mare Nostrum changes, but in my current campaign I somehow managed to get France fucked up in ways I didn't know it was possible to get fucked up in. It's been some 250 years since the League War in HRE, which France had to take part in all the way due to being in a PU with me, which was sandwiched between two Force Religion (to Protestant) changes on them through the PU and involved total occupation of France while I had to retreat back to my Hamburg-Lübeck fort line to build up more manpower and mercenaries for one final offensive to Münich. It's only now that France is starting to be able to field 30k troops, and all their forts are still Castles. Of course, a major factor may have been that while I allowed the PU to break I did stick to my alliance with France due to wanting to avoid Spain or Savoy or some other assmunchers from dividing up France. Though I suppose all those subsequent invasions of France did not make their recovery any faster even if a good part of them were defeated or the lost territory recovered later.

you can pay the best advisors and outtech everyone

this is eu4, not 3. you can't do that anymore.

You can still do that marginally for the western nation, and completely outclass other tech groups.A few levels are still noticeable, you will need that to completelly crush muslim armies .Now i wont spent at 200% penalty and will spend the points to develop coastal and trade node provinces mainly as a republic. Just tried novgorod , it never have been easier.

Yea, outteching in EU4 is much more about having a crucial year or two of advantage on certain tech levels, and even then as a republic you don't have to use those military points on that, you can hold on to them and only spend early if you actually need that moment of advantage to tip the scales. Even as a large Western empire the momentary advantage (or disadvantage) can prove critical, since even if you win a major battle in a coalition war through numbers or superior leader you can still suffer proportionally much higher casualties which can prove crippling to your manpower and mercenary reserves. And this comes from someone who plays on pussy mode (with Sweden and player handicap).

Meanwhile, I toyed around with the unit models some more, Luzur look what we have here:

Spoiler

It's a real pain in the ass going through all the models and trying to see if any of them makes a better karoliner than the default

And here's a little something unrelated for fizzelopeguss too:

 

[Luzur]

Meanwhile, I toyed around with the unit models some more, Luzur look what we have here:

Spoiler

It's a real pain in the ass going through all the models and trying to see if any of them makes a better karoliner than the default

Well its 1607 so there isnt a Carolean army yet, so those uniforms are good enough (although the yellow and blue coat uniform + the carpus hat didnt arrive until around 1680 and the army reforms of Carolus XI, the uniform should look like early 1600's "big hat with feather and colorful breeches" type.), cavalry looks good though, although should have that other lobsterneck helmet since it was more common.

 

[Tigranes]

Actually, even if you save points you'll likely create windows of opportunity to out tech the incompetent AI and at least gain a further edge against coalitions. Especially since snowballing is so quick in EU4. I'm sure you can do it too if you try hard enough.

It's pretty easy to out-tech the AI as any Western nation, no need to be the chump that pays Goldman Sachs salaries to the advisors for minor bonus.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Well its 1607 so there isnt a Carolean army yet, so those uniforms are good enough (although the yellow and blue coat uniform + the carpus hat didnt arrive until around 1680 and the army reforms of Carolus XI, the uniform should look like early 1600's "big hat with feather and colorful breeches" type.), cavalry looks good though, although should have that other lobsterneck helmet since it was more common.

That's the second tier sprite, and it's the only unique Swedish model the game currently has (part of the Protestant League pack), which actually does seem to match the Gustavus Adolphus type uniform fairly well. Caroleans would be around the third tier, and while the default model is an acceptable likeness it's still low detail, so I've experimented with replacing it with Novgorod, Nuremberg and Portugal models. Novgorod didn't work out because the color order is wrong (so the jacket is yellow), Nuremberg is nice but the jacket isn't just right, and Portugal is yet to be tested. I went with the Knights Hospitaller tier two model for hackapells because of the quality of the model, British colonial cavalry would have been a closer match in terms of accuracy but the model is lower quality so I didn't try it first.

Nuremberg model Caroleans

I also made the first tier model use the Livonian Order model because it has the G.A. style moustache and you may as well have more artistic license and go with a romantic painting kind of plate armor soldier instead of the really bland basic halberdier model.

 

[Luzur]

Well its 1607 so there isnt a Carolean army yet, so those uniforms are good enough (although the yellow and blue coat uniform + the carpus hat didnt arrive until around 1680 and the army reforms of Carolus XI, the uniform should look like early 1600's "big hat with feather and colorful breeches" type.), cavalry looks good though, although should have that other lobsterneck helmet since it was more common.

That's the second tier sprite, and it's the only unique Swedish model the game currently has (part of the Protestant League pack), which actually does seem to match the Gustavus Adolphus type uniform fairly well. Caroleans would be around the third tier, and while the default model is an acceptable likeness it's still low detail, so I've experimented with replacing it with Novgorod, Nuremberg and Portugal models. Novgorod didn't work out because the color order is wrong (so the jacket is yellow), Nuremberg is nice but the jacket isn't just right, and Portugal is yet to be tested. I went with the Knights Hospitaller tier two model for hackapells because of the quality of the model, British colonial cavalry would have been a closer match in terms of accuracy but the model is lower quality so I didn't try it first.

Nuremberg model Caroleans

I also made the first tier model use the Livonian Order model because it has the G.A. style moustache and you may as well have more artistic license and go with a romantic painting kind of plate armor soldier instead of the really bland basic halberdier model.

Well now you got the 1760's uniform LOL

This is how it looked.

(except the goddamn gun again, geez why do they keep on having those 1762 muskets with that uniform!! FUUU)

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

Yea, I know how the uniform looks, and I actually don't think it looks that bad. It's a pretty classy outfit in its own way. Which is one reason why I'm actually seriously tempted to keep it for the fourth model as well instead of switching forward.

EDIT: Yea the Portuguese model has preset green parts, so it's of no use. So one would either have to put the second tier unit for double duty or use the Nurembergian model.

'British' 'colonial' cavalry

 

[Luzur]

Well that uniform was used in the Seven Years war though, so it doesnt fit the Carolean era, which ended 1719.

Uniform 1779

Uniform 1760

That cavalry looks better though, but again, wrong era

 

[Beastro]

People actually look at the models on Pdox games?

Only ones I've ever bothered with are the Vic2 navy ones since the changes are drastic and the models large. IDGF what the land ones look like or sail ships.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

That cavalry looks better though, but again, wrong era

More of a test on how the model looks than trying to fit the correct cavalry to tier 3.

 

[Space Satan]

Down with the Tech Groups!

Spoiler

Welcome to another development diary about Europa Universalis IV. This time we talk about something that will be in the next major patch we do.

One of the parts of the game that has not changed much since eu1 is the concept of technology groups and technological development around the world. We’ve added concepts like westernising, and tweaked that one, but in the end Europe has a huge advantage from day 1, and lots of fun gameplay options are limited the further away you are.

So this is what will happen in 1.18, when it is released this autumn..

A nation’s technology group no longer affect technology research.

There is now a concept called Institutions, which will affect your technology research. There are seven different institutions that appear over the game, and if you don’t get them to spread into your country and then get embraced by your government, your technology costs will slowly rise.

Each institution will appear in a province fullfilling certain factors, and then slowly spread around the world. The nation owning that province will gain prestige and monarch power.

Every year the penalty for not having embraced an institution will grow by 1%, so there is a gradual process.

When an institution has spread to at least 10% of your development, you can embrace it in your government, removing the penalty permanently, and also giving a bonus to your nation. The cost to embrace depends on the amount of development in your nation without the institution.

All institutions spread over borders (including 1 seazone away), if relations are positive, and the spread is based on development in the province getting it. There are also lots of other factors related to the spread.

So which are the the seven institutions then?

Feudalism
This is present from the start in almost all the world, except among the hordes, new world and sub-saharan africa. It will slowly spread into neighboring lands, but it is not quick.
Bonus: Gives 1 extra free leader.
Penalty: 50%


Renaissance
This appears in Italy after 1450, in either a capital or a 20+ development province. It will spread quickly through high development in europe, particularly through italy, but can only spread into provinces that have feudalism already.
Bonus: 5% Cheaper Development & 5% Cheaper Buildings
Penalty: 20%


Colonialism
Appears after 1500 in a port province in Europe, who’s owner has the Quest of the New World idea, and have discovered the new world. And will spread very quickly through any port in countries with colonies.
Bonus: +10% Provincial Trade Power
Penalty: 20%


Printing Press
This arrives after 1550, most likely in germany, but can happen in any protestant or reformed province. It will spread quickly in Protestant and Reformed territory, but also into capitals with dip tech 15.
Bonus: 5& Cheaper Stability
Penalty: 20%


Global Trade
This arrives after 1600, in a center of trade in the highest value trade node, and will spread quicker into provinces with trade buildings.
Bonus: +1 Merchant
Penalty: 20%

Manufactories
This arrives after 1650 in a province with 30 development and a manufactory, and will spread quicker into provinces with manufactories.
Bonus: +10% Goods Produced
Penalty: 20%

Enlightenment
Arrives after 1700 in a province that either is a seat of a parliament, or is a province in europe owned by a monarch with at least 5 in all stats. Universities & Parliament Seats spread this institution.
Bonus: 25% Cheaper Culture Conversion
Penalty: 30%


What does this mean?


The progress of Europe is not guaranteed, but most importantly, a nation in Asia or Africa is no longer crippled from day 1, and forced to avoid spending power on ideas and development.

------

We’re constantly tweaking the spread factors, but here are some screenshots from mid 18th century in a hands-off game from this morning.

This is the institutions mapmode, where green are provinces that have all the enabled institutions, and yellow are don’t have them all.

And here is the technology mapmode, of the same game.

Some other aspects that has changed include the following
- New World Native Reforming will give you all institutions that the one you reform from has.
- Trade Companies are available to all technology groups.
- Lots and lots of triggers on western techgroups have been changed to check for specific relevant institutions.

Also:

Q Am I right in assuming that this (as a side effect of the feudalism bonus) means that almost all countries start out with one more free leader? If so, neat
A yes.

Q What do we pay with to get institution embraced? Monarch Points? Or money, or what?
A money

Q Sounds like a fantastic change. I assume since Technology Groups are of less importance, so is westernization? Will it be something different now?
A there is no westernisation

There. Is. No. Westernisation.

 

[Vaarna_Aarne]

I'd say it's a considerable improvement. A considerable reason why Ottoman Empire and Ming China stagnated and decayed was because they grew insular and isolationist. The institutions mechanic should really be tied to dynamism vs hegemony, because perhaps the most important reason for European success in history was the element of competition that dominated Western European geopolitics all the way until WW1.

So in essence, technological progress should slow in Europe if something like Charles V equivalent conquering France too happens (that is, at least to the huge empire that now holds hegemony), or it would catch up in Middle East or China if Ottomans or Ming collapsed and nobody gobbles up all their territory for themselves in X years.

tl;dr Down with blobs.

 

[MadMaxHellfire]

all those years... wasted westernizing my huge empires... lost in time like tears in rain...

 

[Reject_666_6]

Feudalism as an institution is really silly. You don't need to pass through it to get better tech, as evidenced by ancient empires and republics. Seems like lazy Whig history unless they rename it to something else.

 

[Delterius]

The idea has a lot of potential. Under the old model the only real strategy was to get a border with a western european country and westernize. It was a fulfilling experience in EU3 given how punishing lower techgroups were, but in EU4 it just wasn't as pressing.

Now, the story is changed. For the first century or so Europe has the upper hand but starting with the Global Trade modifier in 1600, any region of the world could become the center of civilization. That, I think, adds a lot of importance to development. Get yourself a lot of provinces of the most expensive goods and those diplo points could make your node richer than Genoa.

 

[Beastro]

First step in Paradox making their games less Eurocentric.

Beginning of the end for them.

 

[MoLAoS]

All the time the game has been out and this is the best they can do? Wow.

 

[rezaf]

First step in Paradox making their games less Eurocentric.

I dunno. It's probably an offense to say so, but I do wonder whether a game named "Europa Universalis" should become less eurocentric.

Also, I do wonder why they make such ground breaking changes at this point in a game's lifespan. Knowing Paradox, it'll break more things than it solves and pave the way or an all new set of exploits. Why not have this as the basis for a sequel instead when the time inevitably comes?

 

[oscar]

The reasons for Europe's ascension across this game's time period were far, far more solidly founded (maritime and thus trade and thus economic dominance, standing armies fuelling the development of effective taxation methods while nigh constant European conflict forced tactical excellence and innovation etc) then any sole bad ruler or military battle could've offset. Even being generous to the idea, you would have to go well back into the CK2 era to mess up Europe enough for it to not take off more or less as it did historically.

 

[Hoodoo]

Watch it you're offending the guns, germs and steel crowd who think it was all a coincidence that 5 distinct and rival European powers managed to conquer 1/5th of the world each. Some people can't cope with the fact that every non-Europeans were getting their asses systematically kicked in 90% of the engagements regardless of the size of their armies from 1500 onward.

 

[Andkat]

To be fair, in the 1500s the great Islamic gunpowder empires of the Ottomans, Mughals, and to a lesser extent the Safavids were just getting into high gear. The Ottomans were the terror of the European imaginary until the mid-late 1600s (although Ottoman net expansion didn't stop until a decade or a few after the disastrous final siege of Vienna) with their total overrun of Hungary after Mohacs in 1526 and the Timurid Mughals whose prosperity utterly dwarfed that of the Ottomans were just establishing themselves as masters of India. There's also the short-lived star of the Saadis in Morrocco, who decisively defeated and killed the Portuegese King at Ksar El Kebir in 1578, modernized aggressively, and managed successful if ultimately counterproductive imperial conquests in sub-Saharan Africa. These, and not the nascent European colonial Empires, were the most formidable dynamic actors of the globe for a sizable chunk of what is deemed the Age of Imperialism (I'm not quite sure how peak Spanish Imperial wealth stacks up against peak Mughal wealth). Expansion of militarized trading into the Indkian Ocean and exploitation of an astoundingly plague-ravaged mesoamerica by the Hispanics and friends isn't on quite the same level as the systemic evisceration of Ming China, Maratha India, and anyone else who looked at the French and British funny later on. I mean, the Austrians, usually (although often with an element of delusion) reckoned as among the principal powers of Europe, still managed to lose a war or two to the Ottomans outright in the period following Ottoman stagnation and the loss of Carpathia.

Moreover, one can say that the Spanish Empire, the beacon of the first phase of early modern Imperialism, underwent a cycle of ascendancy->stagnation->ruin analogous in magnitude, persistence, and timing to that experienced by, say, the Mughals and the Ottomans; being in Western Europe didn't do much to make Spain any less pathetic and irrelevant by the mid 18th to early 19th century. Similar arguments can be made for the Portuegese and the Dutch, although those both had issues of demographic sustainability and strategic positioning in Europe that vastly compounded the hurdles in their possible trajectories.

 

[Delterius]

Yes, the sort of complete European dominance people refer to is more of a XIXth century phenomenom. Which is why I think Westernization as a concept fits a game like Victoria much better than Europa Universalis. Even as european power, science, economics and military begins to outclass the rest of the world beginning in the 1600s and even as Europe is on the forefront of human development and exploration, european supremacy is on a completely different level. We are talking about the ability to project power on a global and direct scale that simply wasn't seen in the 1500s. The real game changer comes with Napoleon's invasion of Egypt, the Opium War and the Berber Wars but not before then.