DX:HR leak impressions

[Gord]

Dunno, had IW just used bigger levels and kept the skills (after overhauling the system) it could have already turned out much better.

Even then though much of the DX "feeling" would have been lost due to the setting, which was leaning too far towards generic sci-fi, imho.

One thing I'm a bit sceptical about in HR by the way, I'm afraid it might look too futuristic, esp. considering it's set before DX1.

 

[J1M]

ffffffff this end boss is annoying with over 9000hp and one fuck up and you die.

If you make a mistake you can gobble a pain killer or similar item.

The forced boss battle really is an awful end to the press review copy.

At least in the original game - you could hack the computers for the kill codes or skip the fights till later.

The trick to beating Barrett is to make use of the chemical tanks which can incapacitate him for a long time, EMP works too. Throw the explosive barrels at him and hope for the best.

I know that the designers weren't considering this when they made the boss fight, but it's something I noticed while frantically searching the environment for something to kill the boss while trying to avoid being shot. (I only had a couple of magnum rounds, a tranq gun, and a stun gun when I got to it)

Deus Ex is all about freedom of approach, there's always more than one way to reach each objective. You can't fuck off in any direction you want, but you can do things in your own way. Freedom empowers the player and feeds into the fantasy of what makes the game compelling.

The boss fight strips the player of that freedom, and in a sense is stressful because the player has lost complete control. As many have noticed, it's a very jarring and distinctive moment. One that I find worthwhile. I would also argue that it is good because it is jarring.

 

[Comrade Goby]

Dunno, had IW just used bigger levels and kept the skills (after overhauling the system) it could have already turned out much better.

Even then though much of the DX "feeling" would have been lost due to the setting, which was leaning too far towards generic sci-fi, imho.

One thing I'm a bit sceptical about in HR by the way, I'm afraid it might look too futuristic, esp. considering it's set before DX1.

I'd rather it look pretty good instead of the bland environments of 1999. I'm sure had the og Deus Ex developers had today's tech the environments would look pretty futuristic as well.

 

[Gord]

I'd rather it look pretty good instead of the bland environments of 1999. I'm sure had the og Deus Ex developers had today's tech the environments would look pretty futuristic as well.

Maybe, but you can make a game look futuristic with even older tech (take System Shock) and I remember Warren Spector mentioning in some interview that one of the ideas leading to Deus Ex was a concept where you would play something like a current day private investigator.

Whatever the reason, I liked the believable real-world atmosphere spiced up with conspiracy theories and a bit of SCIENCE!

 

[Stasgard]

Mr. Spector mentioned that he went for a modern Sci-Fi themed gamed for familiarity. He mentioned in an interview with Harvey Smith (the lead on Invisible War) that a major issue he had with DX:IW was that the sense of the familiar was gone. I believe his example was that moving a dumpster to break into an apartment window was something everyone could visiualize and understand instantly, and that the move further forward tampered with that.

Edit: Nope, just checked, it was Harvey Smith who said that. Link for any who are interested in hearing Spector/Smith discuss IW, and it's shortcomings.

 

[gromit]

Some serious candor up in that hizzy. Thanks for the link.

 

[J1M]

Mr. Spector mentioned that he went for a modern Sci-Fi themed gamed for familiarity. He mentioned in an interview with Harvey Smith (the lead on Invisible War) that a major issue he had with DX:IW was that the sense of the familiar was gone. I believe his example was that moving a dumpster to break into an apartment window was something everyone could visiualize and understand instantly, and that the move further forward tampered with that.

Edit: Nope, just checked, it was Harvey Smith who said that. Link for any who are interested in hearing Spector/Smith discuss IW, and it's shortcomings.

Had some serious raging when he started claiming that their mistake was to listen to their hardcore fans. It's clear they just listened to designer friends and internal people. The DX2 forums were full of hardcore fans continually hammering home all the points they now agree upon in retrospect. And doing so long before the game ever shipped.

Giving the advice of not listening to the core base of people who will buy your product is insane. Yet we hear it all the time.

Also, I know I've harped on this before, but I'm tired of Spector being regarded as some sort of savant. He was lucky enough to be involved in some hit products, and his studio decisions are the ones that drove DX2 and Theif 3 into the ground. Seriously, look at what he has done since DX. Three shits in a row. Yet he will still go out there and hype Epic Mickey as if it was a true sequel to his glory days.

Many of the features that people like about DX were suggested and implemented by Harvey Smith, such as consumable lockpicks and multitools. That's not to say I'd let him design a game now, but he did some good stuff when he was younger. This is spiraling into the same old rant again, but you get the point.

 

[baronjohn]

Spector and Levine are morons worshiped by our celebrity obsessed culture because they were accidentally to be involved in some good games.

 

[Destroid]

Hardcore fans have become a scapegoat for devs shitting up old games.

 

[LordDenton]

Spector and Levine are morons worshiped by our celebrity obsessed culture because they were accidentally to be involved in some good games.

Are you retarded? Yes, Warren Spector was "accidentally involved" with all of these:

Wing Commander (1990), ORIGIN Systems
Wing Commander: The Secret Missions (1990), ORIGIN Systems
Ultima VI: The False Prophet (1990), ORIGIN Systems
Bad Blood (1990), ORIGIN Systems
Wing Commander II: Vengeance of the Kilrathi (1991), ORIGIN Systems
Wing Commander: The Secret Missions 2 - Crusade (1991), ORIGIN Systems
Ultima: Worlds of Adventure 2: Martian Dreams (1991), ORIGIN Systems
Ultima Underworld: The Stygian Abyss (1992), ORIGIN Systems
Shadowcaster (1993), ORIGIN Systems (Uncredited)[9]
Ultima Underworld II: Labyrinth of Worlds (1993), ORIGIN Systems
Wing Commander: Privateer - Righteous Fire (1993), ORIGIN Systems
Ultima VII, Part Two: Serpent Isle (1993), ORIGIN Systems
Ultima VII, Part Two: The Silver Seed (1993), Electronic Arts
Wings of Glory (1993), Electronic Arts
System Shock (1994), Looking Glass Technologies
CyberMage: Darklight Awakening (1995), ORIGIN Systems
Crusader: No Remorse (1995), ORIGIN Systems
Thief: The Dark Project (1998), Looking Glass Studios
Deus Ex (2000), Ion Storm Austin
Deus Ex: Invisible War (2003), Ion Storm Austin
Thief: Deadly Shadows (2004), Ion Storm Austin
Epic Mickey (2010), Disney Interactive Studios

 

[gromit]

Had some serious raging when he started claiming that their mistake was to listen to their hardcore fans. It's clear they just listened to designer friends and internal people.

You have simultaneously passed and failed your listen check, and that's just plain fucking confusing. They said they talked to their "designer friends" too much, hearing from them everything they did wrong and how to "fix" it (a.k.a. those designers' current favorite "pet ideas" and / or what they wish they were doing for THEIR dream game) while ignoring the fans. It's clear they just listened to designer friends and internal people, and not the players, because they specifically cited this a major problem.

 

[J1M]

Had some serious raging when he started claiming that their mistake was to listen to their hardcore fans. It's clear they just listened to designer friends and internal people.

You have simultaneously passed and failed your listen check, and that's just plain fucking confusing. They said they talked to their "designer friends" too much, hearing from them everything they did wrong and how to "fix" it (a.k.a. those designers' current favorite "pet ideas" and / or what they wish they were doing for THEIR dream game) while ignoring the fans. It's clear they just listened to designer friends and internal people, and not the players, because they specifically cited this a major problem.

No, the group he said he should have listened to more was the Xbox live crowd they were targeting. The fact that hardcore/fan/friend/designer is such a muddled set of people in his mind is the problem.

 

[J1M]

Spector and Levine are morons worshiped by our celebrity obsessed culture because they were accidentally to be involved in some good games.

Are you retarded? Yes, Warren Spector was "accidentally involved" with all of these:
...

Step 1. Strip the expansion packs off that list.
Step 2. Start listing his actual contributions.
Step 3. Reach the same conclusion as us.

Even Spector agrees. Watch the recorded video where he talks about his career to that class in Texas for an hour.

 

[Stasgard]

Had some serious raging when he started claiming that their mistake was to listen to their hardcore fans. It's clear they just listened to designer friends and internal people. The DX2 forums were full of hardcore fans continually hammering home all the points they now agree upon in retrospect. And doing so long before the game ever shipped.

Giving the advice of not listening to the core base of people who will buy your product is insane. Yet we hear it all the time.

I agree in theory to what you're saying here, listening to the fans of the game you are building a sequel to is pretty self explanatory, and yes, they did kind of significantly fail at that. However, once again, in THEORY what he has said is fairly accurate from a pure business and practicality standpoint. You do need to listen to your target audience, and build around them. Which in this case was a broader console market. In that regard? They succeeded in Invisible War, it was a far more accessible watered down version of the first game. Problem is, that isn't what the "hardcore fans" wanted.

Which brings us to the point about listening to them. Yes, I do think what he said about the Designer Friends/Hardcores/Fans/etc. is way too far, but the concepts he has put forth are correct, as an audience we do tend to want the far more specialized, complicated version of games. The point he was trying to make, I feel, was that listening to that group is all well and good, but designing the game specifically for them becomes a niche thing, which isn't practical in the high budget market they were working with.

Compund this with the fact I feel they aren't trying to speak from a market standpoint with IW, but rather reflecting on the game in terms of overall quality, the statements do get a bit convoluted. However, at the end of the day, they've come to terms with their fuck up, and wanted to discuss it, for it I give much respect to Harvey for it, even if some of his statements were a bit off course.

Also, I don't see Spector as a savant or any such, I feel he is a good designer, and I respect him for the fact he has worked on plenty a good game in his time. Much in the same way I don't feel Chris Avellone is the saviour of RPG's, but I respect him and his work. So, if I've given of too much of an apologist stance here, I assure you it was unintentional.

Hardcore fans have become a scapegoat for devs shitting up old games.

But dude, that is so true! Devs don't shit up old games, they only get better with more graphics and awesome takedowns! Only old nerds who replay the same game with shitty graphics a million times complain! Fallout 3 won GOTY, everyone loved it! Only total fags thought the shitty only ones were better!!!

 

[Gord]

I found some of the stuff in the interview quite interesting, like e.g. how they felt skills and augs had to many overlappings.

Still I wonder why even back then the standard approach seemed to be to remove such things instead of tweaking them.

 

[Black]

http://tubedubber.com/#zYpuzHyEY8Q:jLJL ... 0:0:0:true

 

[Volrath]

So this isn't shit? Hard to believe really.

 

[Jaedar]

So this isn't shit? Hard to believe really.

Against all probability, it actually is not shit.

Therefore it will tank and d4us ex will be a linear cover shooter with dialogue.

 

[Black]

So this isn't shit? Hard to believe really.

I know, right?
But don't worry, DNF turned out to be shit and we still have Xcom and jagged alliance re-derp so the majority of Codex bets will turn out correct anyway

 

[Data4]

But don't worry, DNF turned out to be shit

I must have missed your review. Link please?

 

[Barrow_Bug]

So hard for this. Just sayin.

 

[Black]

But don't worry, DNF turned out to be shit

I must have missed your review. Link please?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WS7D54LXOj0

 

[Data4]

But don't worry, DNF turned out to be shit

I must have missed your review. Link please?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WS7D54LXOj0

Yeah, been working too much the last couple of days. I didn't even realize it's out. Impressions are bad, which pisses me off. I was all set to support this sight unseen just because it's Duke and the developer said stuff that sounded right at the time. Guess I'll at least demo it just to be honest about declaring it a failure.

 

[J1M]

Can someone explain the exact conditions for ghosting? Seems easy enough on the first mission but later I didn't often see it. Does it just require that nobody enter the hostile state? Or will making noise that attracts the enemy ruin it as well?

Does smooth operator stack with the ghosting bonus or is it a lesser stealth reward?

 

[baronjohn]

Smooth operator stacks with ghosting. Dunno about exact conditions.