Dragon Age: Inquisition Pre-Release Thread

[Cynic]

You mean those settings which Sawyer is ripping off for his game?

 

[Roguey]

You mean those settings which Sawyer is ripping off for his game?

That's not what he's doing. He's putting more thought into how his world works than any D&D or Bioware designer has ever put into theirs.

 

[Roguey]

Oh I forgot to mention, a Bioware QA tester took a Special Sawyer-Guided Tour of Obsidian last week (he also posts on their forum a lot).

https://twitter.com/AllanSchumacher/status/447077854426062848
https://twitter.com/AllanSchumacher/status/447123560533082112

Getting a feel for the party-based fantasy RPG competition and perhaps "borrowing" some ideas? "Jumping ship? Who knows!

 

[Xeon]

I think he is a huge fan of Obsidian, I remember him praising Alpha Protocol and FNV at Bioware forum and even tweets MCA and Josh from time to time

Edit:
Not interested in Serpent in the Staglands? Josh seems to like it quite a bit and there is a small chance he might write an NPC in the game.

 

[Cynic]

That's not what he's doing. He's putting more thought into how his world works than any D&D or Bioware designer has ever put into theirs.

Do you actually believe that or did it come as info along with his semen?

 

[SuicideBunny]

Everything in MoTB is about the the fucking romance.

what romance? there was no romance in my motb, only eating gods and subjugating the known universe...

 

[Delterius]

Everything in MoTB is about the the fucking romance.

what romance? there was no romance in my motb, only eating gods and subjugating the known universe...

Everything, the ancient conflicts and your own story were put in motion because of the ancient doomsdayromance. Furthermore, the potential fling/bond with Safiya is well integrated into the plot because you and her are kindred souls. And if that relationship fall apart in the end, well, that makes her/your betrayal all the greater.

Point with relationship points is that i hate to know what will happen next. Points you earn screams "HEY EARN POINTS OR I WILL LEAVE YOU, YOU WILL havve BAD ENDING WITH THAT CHAR"

This is a good point. Do keep in mind that most people who complain about losing influence points do so because they don't like the consequence for their actions. In those games you know that conforming to another character's ideals equal a good ending and that not doing it equals to a bad ending, they rage not because the ending was preditable but because there isn't a fake sense of progression at every step. Hence the Love/Hateromance sliders in DA2.

 

[Perkel]

This is a good point. Do keep in mind that most people who complain about losing influence points do so because they don't like the consequence for their actions. In those games you know that conforming to another character's ideals equal a good ending and that not doing it equals to a bad ending, they rage not because the ending was preditable but because there isn't a fake sense of progression at every step. Hence the Love/Hateromance sliders in DA2.

Like i said i don't have problem with accepting my choices. I have problem with character developement being predictable. Points are like big fucking arrows that will tell you: get 0 and i will leave you, get 100 and i will fuck with you. Either of that is bad. I much more prefer situations in which i can't predict outcome via points and if i stay true to what "i want" i want to see what will happen without points telling me "you will lose this character".

For example Safiya and Thay topics.

In game she is offended by your words describing thayans as vile motherfuckers. By removing points player wouldn't really know that she is upset because most of the time she doesn't even look offended. Without points you would need to create additional event in which she would burst out raging about you being dirty fucker and with few fireballs in that you would know that she doesn't like that...

 

[Morality Games]

That's not what he's doing. He's putting more thought into how his world works than any D&D or Bioware designer has ever put into theirs.

Do you actually believe that or did it come as info along with his semen?

Eh, I have a degree of respect for Gaider as well. Some of the reactivity in Dragon Age: Origins is quality work and they clearly paid attention to get it right. It was one of the few aspects that improved on the Baldur's Gate series.

 

[Cynic]

Origins scratched the surface of what was possible with reactivity, however whatever it did do, it did in a impotent, anticlimactic fashion. None of it meant anything in the end. Typical Bioware disappointing shit.

 

[DalekFlay]

Gaider has said plainly he is more about making you feel like your choices matter when they don't really, so they can tell a strong narrative they want, rather than real choice and consequence. He's not hiding it.

 

[Cynic]

Typical Bioware shit.

 

[Xeon]

I kinda would like to see stats check kind of romance dialogue choices just like normal dialogue. I think I played a NWN1 or 2's module where I got skill check dialogue but it sounded very cringey so it might still not be good. For example if my character is a genius he should be able to debate a point to try and win an argument or if charismatic he should be able to try and sweet talk whoever he is arguing with. But would like it to be more similar to PoE's I think where just because you pick a stat check dialogue doesn't mean it is a sure win, you might get a better outcome or worse. Instead of mindlessly agreeing with the romanceable NPCs to win some points, I would like to argue or something.

For some reason what I wrote seems kinda familiar, So I might have wrote this before or read it somewhere, If that's true then sorry for the repeat or plagiarism.

 

[Morality Games]

Origins scratched the surface of what was possible with reactivity, however whatever it did do, it did in a impotent, anticlimactic fashion. None of it meant anything in the end. Typical Bioware disappointing shit.

Didn't have the same level of intricacy as an Obsidian/Black Isle plot, but you're not being entirely fair.

To begin with, all of the major quests had multiple solutions that affected the content of your end-game reinforcements, and the end-game was actually designed so that your reinforcements mattered. Not very skillfully, but somewhat convincingly. When you think about it, most of the scenarios entailed a significant amount of detail -- golems and Branka lives/golems/no golems Branka dies + Harrowmont/Bhelen, etc. Or the outcomes of saving/killing Connor in Redcliffe. There were multiple opportunities to miss recruiting or kill off companions if you weren't observant, and recruiting the Secret Companion had a great deal of synergy with the King Making, the Dark Ritual, the Companion Personality Hardening system, and your PC's own magnetism, influence, and charisma on the people involved.

A lot of ths got soured later by the mediocre save file transfer system and the creeping influence of the "Bioware canon", but taken in its own context these were no mean C&C achievements.

 

[Space Satan]

 

[Sceptic]

Gaider has said plainly he is more about making you feel like your choices matter when they don't really, so they can tell a strong narrative they want, rather than real choice and consequence.

That'd be fine if the narrative was strong. When the narrative can be unironically summarised as BSB then we have a problem. Well, two problems.

To begin with, all of the major quests had multiple solutions that affected the content of your end-game reinforcements, and the end-game was actually designed so that your reinforcements mattered. Not very skillfully, but somewhat convincingly.

No. Bullshit. The reinforcements were entirely useless, entirely swappable, and in fact they were so worthless that I ended up not using any of them because I was saving them for when I would really need them. That moment never came. The whole choices translating into the reinforcements was also incredibly sloppy.

When you think about it, most of the scenarios entailed a significant amount of detail -- golems and Branka lives/golems/no golems Branka dies + Harrowmont/Bhelen, etc. Or the outcomes of saving/killing Connor in Redcliffe.

The number of permutations is pretty impressive, too bad they rarely make any difference whatsoever. Redcliff is perhaps the worst offender. So many ways to deal with Connor and the wife, and no matter what you do the earl guy will end up treating you exactly the same way after this sequence ends, since his support is essential to the main plot. This is the problem with that Gaider quote Dalek mentioned earlier, since the narrative is so incredibly rigid nothing you do can ever have any real or satisfying effect on anything else. The hub structure that Bioware are so fond of reinforces this, since each hub is neatly and completely separate from the others, so by design nothing in one part of the narrative ever intersects with another. The problem with DAO is that at some points (again Redcliff) the narratives do intersect, but no matter what you do the outcome will be exactly the same.

Now compare this to MotB's evil ending.

There were multiple opportunities to miss recruiting or kill off companions if you weren't observant, and recruiting the Secret Companion had a great deal of synergy with the King Making, the Dark Ritual, the Companion Personality Hardening system, and your PC's own magnetism, influence, and charisma on the people involved.

Missing or recruiting companions is now a feature? Seriously, am I supposed to praise Bioware for reimplementing a feature that they actively tried to kill off themselves? Until KOTOR came along it was unthinkable to have party members forced on you or immortal just because the plot said so. As for all the synergy stuff I call bullshit. Nothing about Loghain had anything to do with the Companion Personality Hardening system (no matter what you do Alistair gets butthurt and leaves), it barely factors into the Dark Ritual aside from being yet another permutation of possibilities with no real consequence, and you must be high on something when you go on about "PC's own magnetism, influence, and charisma on the people involved" since none of this exists in the game. And let's not dwell too much into the Companion Personality Hardening system (I'm laughing uncontrollably every time I type this by the way) since all it involves is giving people gifts. Yeah, that's some complex Companion Personality Hardening system.

A lot of ths got soured later by the mediocre save file transfer system and the creeping influence of the "Bioware canon", but taken in its own context these were no mean C&C achievements.

They had already been done better, years prior. Repeating something others have already done but not doing it as well is NOT what "achievement" means.

 

[DalekFlay]

Real C&C would have been the werewolves turning on you in the end, if you went with them. Shit like that. Neither Dragon Age or Mass Effect has the balls to do stuff like that though, or at least very rarely. Cured the genophage? Didn't cure it? Either way you lose one group and gain another on some random stat page that doesn't really effect anything. All you get is the brief cutscene difference.

It's story C&C in a cutscene, never game C&C. That would infuriate the dudebros who would rant about not getting the achivements for both paths.

When they rarely do impact gameplay with a choice, like say Justice attacking you at the end of The Awakening if you spare The Architect, it's pretty good. If they did that shit ten times more often and throughout the game rather than at the end it would be impressive.

 

[Roguey]

Real C&C would have been the werewolves turning on you in the end, if you went with them.

No it wouldn't. That's bullshit suckerpunching.

It's story C&C in a cutscene, never game C&C.

A different boss fight is game C&C. There are three different ending fights in the section you mentioned (Witherfang and wolves, Zathrian and ents, Zathrian and elves). Plus there's systematic reactivity when it comes to companion approval modifiers.

Furthermore, siding with the wolves removes a source of infinite elfroots and such for crafting. This isn't bullshit suckerpunching because that's an expected outcome of wiping out the elf camp.

That would infuriate the dudebros who would rant about not getting the achivements for both paths.

But there are mutually exclusive achievements in DA:O.

As usual nothing here but "I hate everything about Bioware so none of this means anything to me blah blah blah."

 

[CrustyBot]

BioWare forums getting absolutely flooded at the moment.

I'm actually quite surprised, you'd think the official game forums of a high profile company would be on top of the situation. I was under the impression one of the reasons for the change from BSN was improved security. This is becoming pathetic.

Yeah, it's not directly related to Inquisition or anything but it is shocking.

tl;dr - I am butthurt because I am a BSNtard and this spambot BS pushed my Staglands thread back to page 5 or whatever.

 

[sea]

BioWare forums getting absolutely flooded at the moment.

I'm actually quite surprised, you'd think the official game forums of a high profile company would be on top of the situation. I was under the impression one of the reasons for the change from BSN was improved security. This is becoming pathetic.

I dunno. There are only so many ways you can filter this sort of thing:

• CAPTCHAs, which are annoying for end users and can still be bypassed by some bots.
• Account and post filtering. Again, annoying for end users. Codex gets away with this but most forums aren't meant to be "gated communities."
  
• Human moderators. Gotta have people online to do something about it.

You'd be surprised how much spam a regular forum normally gets, even a small one. My guess is that the attack came overnight and all BioWare's forum staff were simply asleep. It happens.

On a forum-related note, I find it interesting that my "main" BioWare Social account (that got banned) wasn't ported over to their new account system, but my non-banned account was. Wonder if that means I can re-register.

 

[Infinitron]

Sorry guys, Dragon Age's C&C is Vault Dweller-approved which means you have to like it

On a forum-related note, I find it interesting that my "main" BioWare Social account (that got banned) wasn't ported over to their new account system, but my non-banned account was. Wonder if that means I can re-register.

Haha, remind me how you got banned?

 

[sea]

No dice, turns out that I was just entering my password wrong but the error displayed by the forum was incorrect (account does not exist). Now it tells me I am "not allowed to visit this community", oh well.

Infinitron, I got banned for... I don't even remember. I think it was arguing about something with one of the devs and then I brought up piracy (not advocating it or threatening to pirate any games in any way, just that it was relevant to the topic), and apparently that was an insta-ban for me.

 

[Grimlorn]

The number of permutations is pretty impressive, too bad they rarely make any difference whatsoever. Redcliff is perhaps the worst offender. So many ways to deal with Connor and the wife, and no matter what you do the earl guy will end up treating you exactly the same way after this sequence ends, since his support is essential to the main plot. This is the problem with that Gaider quote Dalek mentioned earlier, since the narrative is so incredibly rigid nothing you do can ever have any real or satisfying effect on anything else. The hub structure that Bioware are so fond of reinforces this, since each hub is neatly and completely separate from the others, so by design nothing in one part of the narrative ever intersects with another. The problem with DAO is that at some points (again Redcliff) the narratives do intersect, but no matter what you do the outcome will be exactly the same./quote]

The solution to this may be to have a somewhat solid main quest but to create side quests that have many options, where there are different choices and consequences that affect the different people and areas in the game that don't relate to the main quest. Although, I'm not certain how easy or viable this would be. But you could still have the sort of epic main story that can't be changed much combined with the reactivity in side quests with mini storylines that are easier to provide many options and solutions to completing them.

 

[Space Satan]

I told Gaider on BSN that Dragon Age 2 had no choices and was a level-scaling hack'n'slash without any tactical sense. He banned me and said I encouraged negativity on the forums. Oh, the irony.

 

[Morality Games]

No. Bullshit. The reinforcements were entirely useless, entirely swappable, and in fact they were so worthless that I ended up not using any of them because I was saving them for when I would really need them. That moment never came. The whole choices translating into the reinforcements was also incredibly sloppy.

Well, it was definitely sloppy. However, before no one had tried to let you command an army against a ravaging horde of "orcs and trolls." (except the Lith 'myathar siege in Hordes of the Underdark) Like the reactivity in the Suicide Mission in Mass Effect 2, it was a step in the right direction and needed refinement. It did entail some level of extra design to tack on such a mini-game.

Missing or recruiting companions is now a feature? Seriously, am I supposed to praise Bioware for reimplementing a feature that they actively tried to kill off themselves? Until KOTOR came along it was unthinkable to have party members forced on you or immortal just because the plot said so. As for all the synergy stuff I call bullshit. Nothing about Loghain had anything to do with the Companion Personality Hardening system (no matter what you do Alistair gets butthurt and leaves), it barely factors into the Dark Ritual aside from being yet another permutation of possibilities with no real consequence, and you must be high on something when you go on about "PC's own magnetism, influence, and charisma on the people involved" since none of this exists in the game. And let's not dwell too much into the Companion Personality Hardening system (I'm laughing uncontrollably every time I type this by the way) since all it involves is giving people gifts. Yeah, that's some complex Companion Personality Hardening system.

Well, yeah. Half of Planescape revolved around the many ways you could betray, help, destroy and use companions, or overlook them entirely. Not having them changed your experience of the narrative. You spend most of your time with them and they represent your link the different metaphysical realities and cultural contexts of the world as well as your one of your best opportunities to to role-play. I call Dragon Age's implementation an achievement because it must have been hard to do (compared to Kotor), not because it was never equaled or surpassed by a previous game.

Alistair leaves the party if you spare Loghain, but if he is Hardened and was talked into marrying Anora he will strong arm his way into the monarchy through the marriage and spend the rest of the war stewing over your betrayal. That's different from him becoming a drunkard or being executed. You complain that he left anyway, but that's what a choice with consequence is supposed to be about. You can't have everything.

Not sure what to say about your repudiation of the PC's charisma, since that's what you need to broker a marriage alliance anyway.

Real C&C would have been the werewolves turning on you in the end, if you went with them. Shit like that. Neither Dragon Age or Mass Effect has the balls to do stuff like that though, or at least very rarely. Cured the genophage? Didn't cure it? Either way you lose one group and gain another on some random stat page that doesn't really effect anything. All you get is the brief cutscene difference.

It's story C&C in a cutscene, never game C&C. That would infuriate the dudebros who would rant about not getting the achivements for both paths.

When they rarely do impact gameplay with a choice, like say Justice attacking you at the end of The Awakening if you spare The Architect, it's pretty good. If they did that shit ten times more often and throughout the game rather than at the end it would be impressive.

Well, there's what Roguey said. I would also point out that C&C (story or game) tends to invite accusations of superficiality regardless of what game you're playing. It's mostly a question of how far the player is willing to go to indulge the aspects of the C&C that don't hold water.