Dragon Age: Inquisition Pre-Release Thread

[Decado]

They're not going to get better if people stop making them.

Exactly! Stop making them!

 

[Xor]

I didn't even mention the psychologist in ME2 or the assistant in ME3 - they aren't even party members and the ladder is fully romanceable IIRC.

 

[Decado]

Here's the way to fix "romances" in RPGs:

Every time you feel the urge to use the word "romance" just use the word "friendship" instead. A so-called "romance" with an NPC should develop organically instead of a being a gift/flirt/fuck mini-game that gives you a dexterity bonus for having sex with an elf. If BioWare was walking around saying "You can have deep, meaningful friendships with NPCS!!" everyone would notice how ridiculous the whole idea is. A friendship is not an item that you tack onto a game; it is not a mechanic. It is a function that derives from good story telling and good characterization. And that's it.

 

[DalekFlay]

Nothing wrong with letting my character bang hot bitches during the game, just don't make it so fucking Lifetime movie cheesy and don't make it the focus of the damn game half the time.

They have a majority female writing staff though, last I heard, so what can you expect I guess.

 

[Xor]

They have a majority female writing staff though, last I heard, so what can you expect I guess.

How about effort? I don't think that's too much to ask.

 

[DalekFlay]

They have a majority female writing staff though, last I heard, so what can you expect I guess.

How about effort? I don't think that's too much to ask.

I'm sure they put a ton of effort into it, honestly. And the end product is more or less what they wanted. The problem is their priorities and taste, not their effort. They want to have a grand romance between the sheltered mage and the rebellious church girl. Meanwhile most of us want to bang the church girl over the bar one night at the inn and then get back to killing Darkspawn.

 

[Deleted member 7219]

A good recent example of a 'romance' in a game is in The Last of Us: Left Behind DLC. That was actually quite heartwarming and sad and wasn't played to give the player any kind of sexual kick. Bioware should take notes.

 

[Decado]

Or even the very first romances in BGII. They weren't bad. At the very least, they were unobtrusive.

 

[Lhynn]

This talk again?

 

[Kleptocratic debt serf]

It wasn't my intention to belittle your position, but when you say that "that shit" needs to stay out of your RPGs and "those devs" need to just leave and go make "those games" instead, you do come across as somewhat, shall we say, overprotective?

Nah, I do enjoy a good bit of hyperbole though, I'm just worried that Bioware and its conception/implementation of romance are going to be seen as the gold standard in cRPG romance design/development. Mostly by the mainstream gamer outlets reporting it as such, which terrifyling, runs the risk of a positive feedback loop.

I see where you're coming from, but disagree. Minigames can be fun. (They can also be terrible, but they can be fun.) If there can be a fun optional fishing minigame, why can't there be a fun optional sex and/or romance minigame?

I can agree somewhat, but it really gets back to quality. I would also argue the overall design/tone of a game may or may not lend itself to optional sex/romance minigames. There is a risk of taking games to seriously, of course, but how can the medium(or specifically cRPG genre) hope to evolve in a positive way if it is seen as juvenile and fails to attract a more mature audience? Twitcher 1 is a good example of a game that tried to be mature, yet had a sex card collecting game that felt at odds with it's mature theme(minigame of card collecting - Geralt, "I have flowers or chocolate lets fuck" -> player gets new nudy card).

Not really. I played ME, ME2, and DA:O, and romanced in all of them. DA:O came closest to making me care. I did think that the little Morrigan sex deal at the end was very well done, particularly because it did feel like an important part of the story. Overall, I don't think they do a great job, but I am glad they're trying.

FWIW I did comment on D:AO, specifically Morrigan's arc earlier, and they should be commended for it. Unfortunately it was a step forward and two steps back for them since.

Agreed. One solution is to give up on hybridization; the other is to try again and do better this time. Guess which option I think is better for the future of gaming

It depends on the game being made, that said, if you're going to do something do it right. A half arse sex minigame starts to feel more like a parody than an enjoyable game play element as time goes on...

 

[Morality Games]

Citing personal examples of which romances have succeeded and which have failed isn't going to work because opinions are all over the place.

For me, the best Bioware romances were in DAII, specifically the Merrill Rivalmance. To someone else, the entire companion influence mini-game in that entry in the DA franchise is a crater in the ground, along with the rest of the game.

Kotor and Jade Empire were pretty much the worst, with nothing really to redeem them except the Bastilla Dark Side option a little bit maybe. BGII + ToB was okay but complicated by the fact that non-romanceable characters were more entertaining (I liked the Viconia romance, but I would have banished Viconia and the other two into a dark oblivion if it meant keeping Minsc/Boo, Jan, and Saverok -- even the Imoen sibling relationship meant more to me). Dragon Age: Origins improved on BGII in some ways and faltered in others and ends up about the same. In Mass Effect it depends on the character.

 

[Decado]

Citing personal examples of which romances have succeeded and which have failed isn't going to work because opinions are all over the place.

Exactly. For example, you played DA2 so your opinion is shit.

 

[Morality Games]

Citing personal examples of which romances have succeeded and which have failed isn't going to work because opinions are all over the place.

Exactly. For example, you played DA2 so your opinion is shit.

Dragon Age II did a few things right on the storyfag front. At least through Act II there was a quality Fantasy story going on. The dynamic between Hawke and the Arishok and the conflict it drove was better than any specific instance of storytelling in pretty much the entire Bioware canon.

 

[Deleted member 7219]

Citing personal examples of which romances have succeeded and which have failed isn't going to work because opinions are all over the place.

Exactly. For example, you played DA2 so your opinion is shit.

Dragon Age II did a few things right on the storyfag front. At least through Act II there was a quality Fantasy story going on. The dynamic between Hawke and the Arishok and the conflict it drove was better than any specific instance of storytelling in pretty much the entire Bioware canon.

I admire you for daring to stick up for Dragon Age 2 on here without going Volournian.

I may not agree with you but I can respect you.

 

[Cynic]

Yep, I guess I did.

It's hard to find something coherent, something with inetersting and well thought lore/cosmology.

If by banal shit boring, painfully derivative or utterly simplistic you mean coherent then yes, you have a point. Over here on the non retard side, we have different interpretations of "interesting" and "well thought out".

How about the fact that DA has ONE FUCKING BAD GUY? The dark spawn. That's it. Typical bioware bullshit. No matter what happens it always comes back to the "big bad evil". How about the fact that, despite it being called "Dragon" age, Dragons are just cosmetic monsters with no intelligence or lore surrounding them at all. What the fuck are they even? Just some kind of dark spawn demon? And why is it even called Dragon "Age"? The name doesn't even make sense! What about how there are like 5 monsters in the entire fucking game, and you fight these same monsters over and over again for I don't know 60 hours? What about how there are only 3 fucking classes and all the spells are ripped right from D&D anyway. What about how the second game took place entirely in ONE fucking city.

Please, tell us what you find interesting and coherent about the DA "universe" as opposed to the multitude of cultures, races, people, monsters, locations, planes of existence, gods, demigods and demons that exist in ANY of D&D's settings.

I'm really interested to find out what you have to say.

 

[Perkel]

How can it be described as anything but a tacked on gimmick?

Whenever it isn't. Romance in MoTB and PTS are very well integrated into the plot; Even in DA2 is a part of companion dynamics which is a source of conflict of the plot - all love interests are part of the larger mages versus templars story.

Imo romance in MoTB was stupid. It felt tacked on. Generally speaking party relationship in MoTB due to relationship points was fucked up. Because of those fucking points you couldn't speak with party members like you wanted instead you collected points like freaking pokemons because you knew that with low points score either they will leave party or you will get predictable ending with them being evil/leaving you.

Improvement over old DA formula would be to anihilate any romance option and fire writers responsible for earlier romances in BW games.

 

[Delterius]

Imo romance in MoTB was stupid. It felt tacked on. Generally speaking party relationship in MoTB due to relationship points was fucked up. Because of those fucking points you couldn't speak with party members like you wanted instead you collected points like freaking pokemons because you knew that with low points score either they will leave party or you will get predictable ending with them being evil/leaving you.

You can say whatever you want about the romance, but it being tacked on or gimmicky makes absolutely no sense. Everything in MoTB is about the the fucking romance. The romantic side of the deal wasn't very well developed, but then again, the friendship cycle is. And the confession comes in very late into the game - meaning that the romance proper is left for the epilogue.

As for influence points: C&C. You shouldn't have any problems saying whatever you want, fuck whatever the companions think about it. And if they turn on you, that's great it colours up the narrative. BSNers always complained they had to be cynical around companions like Morrigan and all I can say to that is fuck Morrigan. And fuck our sense of completionism that makes us feel like we're merely losing out for taking a stand whenever someone is a dumbfuck.

 

[kris]

Citing personal examples of which romances have succeeded and which have failed isn't going to work because opinions are all over the place.

Kotor and Jade Empire were pretty much the worst,

As you said about citing personal example... The Bastila one is the only one I ever liked. sure, most likely due to my childhood love of Star Wars, but still. And that one was more integral to the plot than every other Bioware romance.

The concept of tacking on something directly like romances is halfhearted and wrong. Instead there should be something like "relations" with every companion. some might not tolerate you, some might respect you, some might be like your blood brother, someone loves you and get clingy. someone you might wanna bang, but they won't. While someone else might.

Been said before, "Romance" in Bioware games right now is pretty much just a straight line of "listen" or "agree" choices in conversation. Where your input normally go no further than saying "Oh, that is interesting, tell me more" or "I agree". It is the same even with non-romances as then it is just a information dump that you can get a bit further on the road. They are normally just neutral, but keep on telling you more personal stuff.

I would love to see a RPG were they managed to make a character that would feel like a "Bromance", that one you knew always had your back.

 

[Kem0sabe]

I see little point in having romances on rpgs, romantic relationships are probably some of the hardest to translate into a digital game format and every attempt so far has felt very unnatural in bioware RPGs for example. If you can't do properly don't do it at all.

 

[tuluse]

Romancing Bastila actually has consequences, as you can talk her out of fighting you later on.

 

[Zombra]

stuff

Good post. I agree with all of that. Argument over.

 

[CrustyBot]

Haha. Playersexual thread is closed. Some guy said that having every romance-able character interested in every variation of the player character over a span of 10 years was a bit of a stretch. Was attacked by half a dozen people before Allan Schumacher decided he'd seen enough.

 

[Morality Games]

Citing personal examples of which romances have succeeded and which have failed isn't going to work because opinions are all over the place.

Kotor and Jade Empire were pretty much the worst,

As you said about citing personal example... The Bastila one is the only one I ever liked. sure, most likely due to my childhood love of Star Wars, but still. And that one was more integral to the plot than every other Bioware romance.

The concept of tacking on something directly like romances is halfhearted and wrong. Instead there should be something like "relations" with every companion. some might not tolerate you, some might respect you, some might be like your blood brother, someone loves you and get clingy. someone you might wanna bang, but they won't. While someone else might.

Been said before, "Romance" in Bioware games right now is pretty much just a straight line of "listen" or "agree" choices in conversation. Where your input normally go no further than saying "Oh, that is interesting, tell me more" or "I agree". It is the same even with non-romances as then it is just a information dump that you can get a bit further on the road. They are normally just neutral, but keep on telling you more personal stuff.

I would love to see a RPG were they managed to make a character that would feel like a "Bromance", that one you knew always had your back.

I can appreciate your reasons. My lack of enthusiasm for the Bastilla romance is reinforced by my lack of enthusiasm for Kotor as a whole. I came to it after Kotor 2 + TSLRSM and Mass Effect Original and thought it didn't measure up to the virtues of either. The adhesives that tie to the events and locations of the game together struck me as pretty weak, which tended to expose the raw parts of its theme park nature. It relied on some pretty dodgy concepts (Infinite Empire + Rakata) and didn't stick nearly as close to the Tales of the Jedi comics as Kotor 2 did, which made it feel like a Fallout 3 interpretation of the Old Republic setting.

Like Star Wars itself, Kotor is probably best enjoyed at a young age -- 14-16 maybe. Not in your 20s.

As for the other aspects of your argument, I can only agree.

 

[Perkel]

Imo romance in MoTB was stupid. It felt tacked on. Generally speaking party relationship in MoTB due to relationship points was fucked up. Because of those fucking points you couldn't speak with party members like you wanted instead you collected points like freaking pokemons because you knew that with low points score either they will leave party or you will get predictable ending with them being evil/leaving you.

You can say whatever you want about the romance, but it being tacked on or gimmicky makes absolutely no sense. Everything in MoTB is about the the fucking romance. The romantic side of the deal wasn't very well developed, but then again, the friendship cycle is. And the confession comes in very late into the game - meaning that the romance proper is left for the epilogue.

As for influence points: C&C. You shouldn't have any problems saying whatever you want, fuck whatever the companions think about it. And if they turn on you, that's great it colours up the narrative. BSNers always complained they had to be cynical around companions like Morrigan and all I can say to that is fuck Morrigan. And fuck our sense of completionism that makes us feel like we're merely losing out for taking a stand whenever someone is a dumbfuck.

Point with relationship points is that i hate to know what will happen next. Points you earn screams "HEY EARN POINTS OR I WILL LEAVE YOU, YOU WILL havve BAD ENDING WITH THAT CHAR"

For comparison being super nice guy to Viconia in BG2 actually was wrong choice and since "points" were hidden you couldn't just reload save. Everytime i see something like Safiya or Aeris interaction i roll eyes because it is fucking predictable what will happen.

Naturally this is also connected to not only characters but also other dialogs in games general. I know The Witcher was weak but you couldn't fucking predict what will happen playing nice guy all the time and quest design fully supported that. So if you were nice guy for elves&dwarves in first act near river like in every other fucking cRPG that would actually be a bad choice for character that want to "fix the world" as later (like few hours later) in the game you would know those packages were weapons for rebeliants and they cut down whole village.

I crave for RPG in which being by playing mister nice guy all the time you would be majorly fucked in game like for example helping village kill robbers will later (20h later) result in whole village being annihilated out of other part of that bandit group vengeance and since one of your party members had actual family there he would either stop traveling with you.

 

[Roguey]

How about the fact that DA has ONE FUCKING BAD GUY? The dark spawn. That's it. Typical bioware bullshit. No matter what happens it always comes back to the "big bad evil". How about the fact that, despite it being called "Dragon" age, Dragons are just cosmetic monsters with no intelligence or lore surrounding them at all. What the fuck are they even? Just some kind of dark spawn demon? And why is it even called Dragon "Age"? The name doesn't even make sense! What about how there are like 5 monsters in the entire fucking game, and you fight these same monsters over and over again for I don't know 60 hours? What about how there are only 3 fucking classes and all the spells are ripped right from D&D anyway. What about how the second game took place entirely in ONE fucking city.

Dragon Age is fucking stupid but a lot of it went right over your head, which is funny.

D&D settings are also garbage of course. Ravenloft/Masque of Red Death, Planescape, and Dark Sun get points for not being overdone Tolkien- or sword-and-sorcery-derivatives but they're not brilliant or anything.