Divinity Divinity: Original Sin - Enhanced Edition

[Gnidrologist]

Was it conscious decision to turn their writing into generic biowarian epic crap or they couldn't get the writer/s, who did the first two games back to business? It's really daunting how so many times decent developers do something incredibly stupid with their sequel even if they make improvements in other areas. Quirky narration and humor was at least half of what made the DD/D2 enjoyable even with the mediocre combat. Imagine great combat and good writing. Make Divinity great again!

 

[Lacrymas]

I think they had to rewrite the whole game at one point and that's why it turned out so shit. They rewrote it again for the EE, but it's still shit. The new writers they hired have obviously never picked up or even looked at a serious book ever, so don't expect miracles; the only thing we can hope for is MCA's involvement raising the bar for everyone, but hope is a cruel mistress.

 

[Kem0sabe]

Larian writing has always been shit, original sin didn't suddenly take a nose dive in terms of quality, there was nothing to fall from in the first place.

 

[Lacrymas]

That's true, but for some reason D:OS' writing is the worst they've churned out (can't speak for Dragon Commander, but I've heard it's weird in a bad way). It's cringeworthy to the extreme and the rewrite didn't help matters.

 

[Infinitron]

Actually, people seem to think Dragon Commander's writing is pretty good.

 

[Kem0sabe]

That's true, but for some reason D:OS' writing is the worst they've churned out (can't speak for Dragon Commander, but I've heard it's weird in a bad way). It's cringeworthy to the extreme and the rewrite didn't help matters.

One thing that actually has me hopeful larian will improve, is that they freely admit that their writing is not up to par and have hired some talent to plug that gap.

But they really need to drop the comedy and cheesy aspect of their writing, at least as a major driving force for the content.

Humor is extremely hard to convey in writen form, even harder (maybe impossible) in an rpg.

Body language, voice, the acting, are all essential to setup a good joke or a funny story, that's why English comedy is the apex in terms of humor, they have great funny looking actors that manage to deliver their lines with that deadpan accent.

 

[Gord]

Dragon Commander can actually be quite amusing with the collection of politically and psychologically stereotypical characters that try to advice you and ask you to rule in their favor in regard to various controversies.
The main issue with DC is that it's a big hodge-podge of various ideas that didn't really fall into place in the final game. Might have been a genuinely good game with some trimming and polish, though.
Unfortunately for it, they had to kill it due to D:OS.

Imo, the writing in D:OS feels notably different from their earlier games. Those games had a certain kind of humor that, while I can understand it's not to everyone's taste, worked well in the scope of the setting/game. Much of the setting was quite grim, but the occasional joke and easter-egg showed that they didn't take themselves too seriously, without exaggerating that aspect too much, either.

In D:OS, my (personal) issue isn't with the humor (which apart from some slapstick and some exaggerated characters there doesn't seem to be all that much), but with the much too verbose and "flowery" dialogue of most NPCs and the messy (back-)story.

 

[Abu Antar]

I didn't mind the writing in the Divine Divinity games. It wasn't great but it was much better than that of Original Sin. Then again, I don't expect good writing from Larian. I see it as a bonus if it happens.

 

[CryptRat]

I hope that D:OS2 will not take itself too seriously, I had no major problem with the writing in D:OS and the humor was mostly good, if one thing the ending could have been funnier and less epic.

 

[Roguey]

Humor is extremely hard to convey in writen form, even harder (maybe impossible) in an rpg.

No it isn't.

 

[Kem0sabe]

No it isn't.

Examples, because I can't recall a genuinely funny game. I don't mean shit we played in our Teens and got a few laughs out of, like the old LucasArts games, I want to see if you can come up with a computer game with quality humor.

In terms of books, it gets somewhat easier, because you are not working the limitations of a game script, but still genuinely good writers sci-fi or fantasy writers who manage to write humor into their stories are not that common, even Pratchett, Adams, and more recently Scalzi, have very uneven work.

 

[Roguey]

No it isn't.

Examples, because I can't recall a genuinely funny game. I don't mean shit we played in our Teens and got a few laughs out of, like the old LucasArts games, I want to see if you can come up with a computer game with quality humor.

In terms of books, it gets somewhat easier, because you are not working the limitations of a game script, but still genuinely good writers sci-fi or fantasy writers who manage to write humor into their stories are not that common, even Pratchett, Adams, and more recently Scalzi, have very uneven work.

Humor is subjective. I could list anything and you could say "that's not funny" and that would be true for you, but not me.

I've laughed at a lot of things in HBS's Shadowrun, Wasteland 2, D:OS. As far as I'm concerned, that's an acceptable quality of humor.

 

[Kem0sabe]

Humor is subjective. I could list anything and you could say "that's not funny" and that would be true for you, but not me.

I've laughed at a lot of things in HBS's Shadowrun, Wasteland 2, D:OS. As far as I'm concerned, that's an acceptable quality of humor.

You have a point, but mediocre writing jumps out when inserted into a medium where you can freely compare the work of one artist to another.

Look at McComb's body of work, codexers might judge him to be an acceptable or even good writer based on his writing in games, but when you start to read his actual books, a more direct measure of his skill as an individual producing art, it's terribly obvious how uterly Mediocre he is compared to his pears.

There is bad writing in all genres of literate, authors who are panned by critics and fans, why not in write humor as well?

Difficulty to quantify doesn't make it fine to put a 'art is subjective' tag on everything.

 

[Lacrymas]

Yes, and because it's subjective (i.e. we project the quality onto the object, rather than the object having the quality in of itself) we can't form any kind of serviceable or serious opinion about it. Since the story is not based on the humor we CAN say that the humor is forced and unnecessary. It also actively distracts from the main theme of the story, if it even has a theme, we've discussed this. Having bad writing on top of that is just icing on the cake.

 

[Roguey]

Since the story is not based on the humor we CAN say that the humor is forced and unnecessary

Didn't feel that way to me.

It also actively distracts from the main theme of the story, if it even has a theme, we've discussed this.

Yes, it has one http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...-enhanced-edition.92612/page-317#post-3967785

 

[Lacrymas]

Didn't feel that way to me.

This really, really doesn't say anything. What didn't you "feel" like that? Going by the theme of "tragedy changing people" (I'm going to take you on your word, since I haven't played D:OS seriously in years and I don't remember anything of the "story") - how does the humor reinforce that theme? Is the humor used a structural element of the narrative? How did the humor change our perspective (or reinforced it) on the characters or narrative? When is the humor used in a critical point in the story to strengthen or logically connect it?

 

[Roguey]

This really, really doesn't say anything. What didn't you "feel" like that? Going by the theme of "tragedy changing people" (I'm going to take you on your word, since I haven't played D:OS seriously in years and I don't remember anything of the "story") - how does the humor reinforce that theme? Is the humor used a structural element of the narrative? How did the humor change our perspective (or reinforced it) on the characters or narrative? When is the humor used in a critical point in the story to strengthen or logically connect it?

Madora being so goofy is flipped on its head when you find out the tragic origin of why she acts that way. It wouldn't be so effective without the humor to set it up.

As a point of comparison, the part in Torment where TNO remembers the Practical Incarnation bashing the hell out of Morte wouldn't be so horrifying if Morte wasn't such a goofy, laidback skull who completely glosses over that part when he tells you about it.

 

[Lacrymas]

Madora being so goofy is flipped on its head when you find out the tragic origin of why she acts that way. It wouldn't be so effective without the humor to set it up.

Ok, now we are getting somewhere. That answers why Madora acts goofy (psychological defense mechanism), but so what? What does that say about the overarching narrative? Why is the humor so pervasive when it doesn't have anything to do with either our characters or the antagonist?

 

[Roguey]

It's like I'm talking to a robot here. Beep boop.

 

[Gnidrologist]

I think they had to rewrite the whole game at one point

Why?

The new writers

Why?

 

[Lacrymas]

I think they had to rewrite the whole game at one point

Why?

I honestly don't remember. Ask Roguey, s/he has all kinds of information and quotes. I do remember that they had to do it at a very late stage of development and that's why it turned out like this.

The new writers

Why?

They decided their writing is shit, so they hired additional writers, including MCA (his role is minimal though). They were right, but I don't know why they hired these writers instead of others. They haven't shown any kind of talent or intelligent writing yet, so I don't have much hope.

 

[Gnidrologist]

Larian writing has always been shit, original sin didn't suddenly take a nose dive in terms of quality, there was nothing to fall from in the first place.

No it wasn't and yes it did. You can say ''shit writing'' about every vidya ever made, because it all is compared to good literature, but in terms of vidya you're full of shit. Larian's games had ''good for what it is'' writing that didn't interfere with gameplay much, was straight o the point with a bit of humor sprinkled in similarly how it was done in original Fallouts. D:OS is a carbon copy of biowarian fluff, where it takes itself seriously, is long winded and boring like try hard fan fiction written by teenager and is forced on you at every step of the way. Earlier games had it concise, with 'serious business epic' shit kept to bare bones minimum.
I consider that 'good' as far as games go. Do you have better examples? No Torment or other interactive books pretending to be games.

 

[Roguey]

Gnidrologist The sad tale of D:OS's writing http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...-discussion-thread.101891/page-3#post-4068583

wrt new writers: The Irish come cheap. They accept potatoes and booze.

 

[Nekot-The-Brave]

I think they had to rewrite the whole game at one point and that's why it turned out so shit. They rewrote it again for the EE, but it's still shit. The new writers they hired have obviously never picked up or even looked at a serious book ever, so don't expect miracles; the only thing we can hope for is MCA's involvement raising the bar for everyone, but hope is a cruel mistress.

From Swen's GDC talk, it appears that he's doing a lot more than just writing an 'origin story'.

 

[Kem0sabe]

No it wasn't and yes it did. You can say ''shit writing'' about every vidya ever made, because it all is compared to good literature, but in terms of vidya you're full of shit. Larian's games had ''good for what it is'' writing that didn't interfere with gameplay much, was straight o the point with a bit of humor sprinkled in similarly how it was done in original Fallouts. D:OS is a carbon copy of biowarian fluff, where it takes itself seriously, is long winded and boring like try hard fan fiction written by teenager and is forced on you at every step of the way. Earlier games had it concise, with 'serious business epic' shit kept to bare bones minimum.
I consider that 'good' as far as games go. Do you have better examples? No Torment or other interactive books pretending to be games.

In terms of rpg's, any of the games bellow i consider to be better written games than D:OS (doesnt make them all good games, or good rpgs, but better written ones).

Fallout 1, Fallout 2, Baldurs Gate 2, Witcher 3, MoTB, Gothic 2, KotOR 2, Arcanum, New Vegas, System shock 2, Deus Ex 1, Morrowind, Bloodlines, Anachronox, Mass Effect 2, Dragonfall.

I'm probably missing a bunch of older games as well, but my memory is not as good as it used to be and i replayed all of these in the last couple of years.