Incline Dark Sun

[Outlander]

You have to reach 1 of the 3 main towns to get the main quest. It won't magically pop up in your quest log upon leaving the sewers.

Also, did you clear Dagolar's lair before leaving the sewers?

 

[RK47]

Yeah the game should ask you to find your middle aged father instead upon escaping.

 

[MrBuzzKill]

- Graphics haved aged pretty badly, especially for a 2D game. I mean, you can tell what everything is, but it just looks bad aesthetically. Perhaps it's not that they have aged, but were bad to begin with.

Agree with you on most points, but don't understand what you don't like about the graphics. Looks very good for a 1992.

Incidentally, I have no idea what to do in this place. The spirit asks "is it time to go?" or something like that. Can somebody give a hint?

It won't magically pop up in your quest log

Since the game doesn't actually have anything like a quest log, this must've been a turn of phrase

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

Well, look, I hate the way modern games hand-hold you and all that, but you do need some direction. When you leave Draj, it would've definitely helped if someone gave you some idea of what you should be shooting for. It could be very high level, and you would have to figure out the implementation and details, but just being presented with a bunch of open areas without any goal is not good design, in my opinion.

 

[MrBuzzKill]

Well, look, I hate the way modern games hand-hold you and all that, but you do need some direction. When you leave Draj, it would've definitely helped if someone gave you some idea of what you should be shooting for. It could be very high level, and you would have to figure out the implementation and details, but just being presented with a bunch of open areas without any goal is not good design, in my opinion.

There IS a goal, though. It's not permanently written down anywhere, but several times is it mentioned that Draj is going to wipe out the gladiator villages unless SOMEONE (hint hint) helps them unite.
I agree that SOME kind of journal/quest log would be more convenient, but I also like the old-school feel of just winging it until you stumble across a plot point. That's what I used to do all the time when I played Fallout, Arcanum, Morrowind. Just wandering around exploring the wastes.

 

[Outlander]

You just escaped captivity and the whole map of Athas is open to you. Explore, there are plenty of side quests, dungeons and eventually you will reach one of the three main towns where the main quest is spelled out to you.

MrBuzzKill is right in that there's no journal or quest log, my mistake, it's just that I never had a problem keeping track of quests. I think, except for the main quest, most side quests can be solved in the area they are found.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

There IS a goal, though. It's not permanently written down anywhere, but several times is it mentioned that Draj is going to wipe out the gladiator villages unless SOMEONE (hint hint) helps them unite.
I agree that SOME kind of journal/quest log would be more convenient, but I also like the old-school feel of just winging it until you stumble across a plot point. That's what I used to do all the time when I played Fallout, Arcanum, Morrowind. Just wandering around exploring the wastes.

Part of it is the time too. If there was a modern game with a beautiful open world, and you did not have exact directions, you wouldn't mind wandering around figuring stuff out. But doing so in a primitive by modern standards, low resolution 2D world, not as much fun. But of course back in early 90s, it was a lot more enjoyable, because back then the technology was a lot more cutting edge.

Still, good design is good design. Games that came around the same time as Dark Sun:SL, such as Ultima Underworld, Betrayal at Krondor, or Ultima VII: TBG certainly did not hand-hold you, but at the same time, you were always clear about what you were supposed to be doing at a high level. It was figuring out HOW to do it that was the challenge.

 

[Dorateen]

Spoiler

Incidentally, I have no idea what to do in this place. The spirit asks "is it time to go?" or something like that. Can somebody give a hint?

Is that the room with Tynan? That is part of a very intricate triangular side-quest. You will need to find two other similar characters, and then search for three specific items that are spread out all over the gameworld. It's not necessary to complete this, but it is very cool.

 

[octavius]

Screencap every single screen with text.
When stuck consult screencaps.

 

[Sceptic]

Well, look, I hate the way modern games hand-hold you and all that, but you do need some direction. When you leave Draj, it would've definitely helped if someone gave you some idea of what you should be shooting for. It could be very high level, and you would have to figure out the implementation and details, but just being presented with a bunch of open areas without any goal is not good design, in my opinion.

And this, kids, is why quest compasses were created.

You said you need some direction? The game gives you some direction. There's mentions of escaped slavers forming villages. There's mentions of Draj's army wiping the villages. There's mentions of Teaquetzl and where it lies. You ARE given an idea of what to shoot for. You just either didn't talk to any of the NPCs who give you the hints, or didn't notice said hints.

It's honestly depressing reading posts like these. For almost 25 years I didn't even imagine that someone could come out of Draj and not know what do. Like, literally have NO IDEA what to do.

Incidentally one of the best thing about the early Might and Magics, especially the first one, was that finding the main quest was in itself an adventure. By your definition this is bad design, and I utterly reject this notion.

 

[RK47]

Bethesda Presents:
Dark Sun 3: Find Shaun of the Beach coming in 2020

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

And this, kids, is why quest compasses were created.

You said you need some direction? The game gives you some direction. There's mentions of escaped slavers forming villages. There's mentions of Draj's army wiping the villages. There's mentions of Teaquetzl and where it lies. You ARE given an idea of what to shoot for. You just either didn't talk to any of the NPCs who give you the hints, or didn't notice said hints.

It's honestly depressing reading posts like these. For almost 25 years I didn't even imagine that someone could come out of Draj and not know what do. Like, literally have NO IDEA what to do.

Incidentally one of the best thing about the early Might and Magics, especially the first one, was that finding the main quest was in itself an adventure. By your definition this is bad design, and I utterly reject this notion.

And I utterly reject your defense of terrible design. I am actually an objective person when it comes to this, as I always trash modern games for their quest compasses and quests broken down into tiny spelled out tasks. But that doesn't mean that EVERYTHING old games did was great. They were terrible in some ways too.

Just think about what you are saying, maaaannn. "There's mentions of escaped slavers forming villages." So what? Why should I care? Am I planning to settle as a farmer somewhere? "There's mentions of Draj's army wiping the villages." Yeah, and? There is also mention of all kinds of monsters in the deserts outside the city, killing people. There is mention of Thri-Keens or whatever, doing bad stuff. How do you decide which is part of your intended journey? You can't. You just wandered around the maps until you stumbled on the next step, and then tried to cherry-pick some stuff that fits it.

RPGs shouldn't leave the player wondering WHAT they should be doing. They should be wondering HOW to do what they know must be done. There are other kinds of games that can be open and free enough to let the player choose what to do, but those games are typically a lot more simulation and emergent behavior heavy than RPGs.

 

[Micormic]

For me personally as long as it's not a complete shot in the dark it's more fun that way. When did it become enjoyable to be told exactly where everything is and just go from A->B->C->d and finish the game, maybe a couple side quests for xp in between.



Just to use a parallel from more popular games, you aren't told where to go in fallout 1/2. You ask around, follow clues, are given a couple hints on where to go (v15/vic). Same with Arcanum.




Dark sun from what I remember wasn't a hard game to figure out, use your brain and listen to the dialogue and it's easy. Provided your brain is capable of processing information and determining what to actually do on it's own rather then being spoonfed information and lead along a path like a dog or a communist.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

In both F1 and F2, and in Arcanum, you are told exactly what must be done. Find the water chip, find the GECK, find the "boy", etc. The fun is figuring out how to do those things, but you are never left to wonder what the hell you should be doing, as in Dark Sun upon leaving Draj. Which is exactly my point.

 

[Strange Fellow]

In both F1 and F2, and in Arcanum, you are told exactly what must be done. Find the water chip, find the GECK, find the "boy", etc. The fun is figuring out how to do those things, but you are never left to wonder what the hell you should be doing, as in Dark Sun upon leaving Draj. Which is exactly my point.

Isn't having an adventuring party, developing it through exploring, kicking ass and taking names and, eventually, discovering the "main quest" of the game enough for you? What on earth made you think you should play pre-Fallout RPGs then?

 

[MRY]

That moment in Dark Sun yields a tremendous mimesis between the character (freed slaves) and the player. The whole point is to be overwhelmed by the size of the world and lack of constraints, to exercise your freedom, and then to choose to commit yourself to specific goals, thereby going from ruled-by-other->unruled->ruled-by-self. Dark Sun isn't a deep game, but it's hard for me to believe that that transition is accidental.

 

[Sceptic]

And I utterly reject your defense of terrible design. I am actually an objective person when it comes to this, as I always trash modern games for their quest compasses and quests broken down into tiny spelled out tasks.

Yet when a game takes away the compass and the tiny spelled out tasks, but leaves you clues for you to put together, you not only fail to notice the clues, you not only come on here clamoring that those clues don't exist, you not only call me a liar when I say I put the clues together and beelined for Teaquetzl, but you even go so far as imply that the hundreds of thousands of players of this game over the past 25 years have been doing the same. Do you realize how absurd you sound? Do you think we've all been ignoring all clues and wandering around aimlessly and then cherry-picking to fit our lie, all part of a secret conspiracy to discredit you?

Just think about what you are saying, maaaannn.

I did. Thinking is how I put these clues together to form a coherent picture of what I needed to do. If your approach to the game, as implied by your listing each individual clue as if in a vacuum and going "why should I care", then yes, you'll have problems finding the village. Where do we go from there though? If you can't put the clues together yourself then the game has to do it for you. Hence the spelled out tasks which you claim you despise. Which is it?

Incidentally your mention of the Thri-Kreens doing bad stuff is hilarious, since this is a clue to a side quest. So are mentions of the temple that disappeared in a sandstorm. So are mentions of a caravan roaming the wasteland. Mentions of oases. Of a cave under the giant skeleton of a wyrm. Hell even the apparently completely disconnected story that the talking rod gives you is directly tied to the main quest. Of course you can ignore everything the rod says and figure things out by yourself. Same with all the other references, you can use them to not have to wander around blindly... or you can wander around blindly if you like. All up to you. Some things I did miss on my first run (and I ended up missing on one of the best weapons in the game because I didn't figure out the clues until my 2nd playthrough).

So we have plenty of clues, but nothing is spelled outright for you, requiring both collection of clues and some thinking to put them together, but none of this is absolutely required so you'll only miss out on optional content, you can still complete the game by just exploring thoroughly. How is any of this bad design?

RPGs shouldn't leave the player wondering WHAT they should be doing. They should be wondering HOW to do what they know must be done.

False dichotomy, but that's not even the problem. You are once again contradicting your self-professed hatred of compasses and spelled out tasks. Neither Dark Sun nor Might and Magic leave you wondering what you should do; they leave you clues for you to put together to figure out what to do. If you can't see the difference, if you utterly refuse to put even a modicum of thought to piece things together yourself, then that's your problem, not the design's.

Turns out I could've just said RTFM.

Of course you could still argue that this is too vague and that it should be spelled out but, you know...

 

[RK47]

Find the water rune, arena escapees.

 

[Tigranes]

What exactly is so bad about wandering around for a bit trying to figure out what you should be doing?

 

[Lilura]

RPGs shouldn't leave the player wondering WHAT they should be doing. They should be wondering HOW to do what they know must be done.

- Porky the Popamoler, 2018.

 

[Sinatar]

Jesus Tapdancing Christ the first NPC you run into outside of the prison in the farms tells you where to go. It's not rocket science.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

You guys are trying too hard to defend what is clearly bad design. I get it, this game has a special place in your hearts, but try not to be so biased. If a modern narrative-based RPG came out without communicating to the player the overarching goal, most of you would (rightly) criticize it for that.

In a good sandbox type game, just wandering around can be fun, because you have simulation and emergent elements that you can play with. But in a narrative-based RPG such as Dark Sun, just letting the player roam around a bunch of maps without purpose is bad design, make no mistake about it.

 

[Strange Fellow]

What the flying fuck makes Dark Sun a "narrative-based" RPG? Was there something I missed?

without communicating to the player the overarching goal

Did you not RTFM? Did you not see the picture that Sceptic posted? Did you not pay attention to the in-game dialogue? Can you even read?

 

[octavius]

Except Dark Sun is not really narrative-based.
At least that's not how I experienced it. For me it was more about exploration than narrative.

 

[RK47]

rpg codex > where the brain damage is very real