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DAO vs BG1&2 difficulty

Volourn

Pretty Princess
Pretty Princess Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Mar 10, 2003
Messages
24,924
"Probably, but you still seem like a newbie when you say that one casting of a highly effective level 1 crowd control spell is "a waste" and that "only an idiot" would cast it and that mookhordes are "no threat".
That's like three utterly idiotic pronouncements in a single shitpost, and makes me think you know nothing about how valuable the Sleep spell is not only at early levels, but throughout the entire game. I mean its second only to Web overall, and as situationally useful on mooks as Blindness is on tougher enemies.
Just please lol if you're gonna troll stick to NWN1, a game you actually know at least a miniscule bit about?"

Only a newbie liek you would think using sleep on a 2hp creature that can't fukkin' hit shit is actually a smart use of spells. The sleep spell should eb sued for creatures that can actually do real damage to your aprty. ie wolves, gnolls 9espciially in BG1 with their elemental/poisonous arrows), and the like. Not fukkin' xfartz. You shoudln't be wasting spells - any spells - against xfartz. Theya ren't a threat. Period. Stop beinga fukkin' newb.

I never claimed sleep or web were useless. In fact, theya re very sueful if you smart in using them. but, theyan re not even near the most useful spells in either BG. FFS



"Pretty much is the most powerful general-use spell in BG1 and 2 for anything that isn't immune, assuming you aren't cheesing"

Nah. Haste is more useful. Fireball is more sueful since instead of slowing things down you can outright kill them (most enemies you face for a good portion of BG1 will die or be near detah with one well palced 5d6 fireball (earliest you can get). Web is useful against opposing adventuring parties though I much prefer hold person against opposing groups. There are also other rather sueful spells you get in the BG series that are as useful if not more so. On top of that, in BG2 sleep is garbage b/c majority of enemies are flat out immune to it (too much HD) and the ones that aren't (ie. gobs in Irencius' dungeon) are not worth wasting a spell on them.


"wesome response, I guess you didn't wanna think too hard about how nuanced the final battle of BG1 is compared to the NWN OC yawnfest?"

I don't think the defintion of nuance is what you think it is but nuance is not a word that describes the Sareviok fight -m espciially cosndieirng the #1 strategy newbs have for Sraveok is to spam monster summonmg spells and wands. LMFAO L A M E


"What's the worst class in DA?"

Rogue. Both warrior and mage are better than it.
 

sea

inXile Entertainment
Developer
Joined
May 3, 2011
Messages
5,698
You have gone full retard.
Have I?

Baldur's Gate 2 + Expansions

Ankheg
Bear
Beholder
Carrion Crawlers
Demon Knight
Doppelganger
Dragon
Drow
Elementals
Ettercap
Ettin
Evil Demons
Genie
Ghoul
Gibberling
Gnoll
Goblin
Golem
Hobgoblin
Illithid
Imp
Kobold
Kuo-Toa
Lich
Lizardmen
Mephit
Minotaur
Mist
Mummy
Myconid
Ogre
Orc
Otyugh
Rakshasa
Sahuagin
Salamander
Shadow
Skeleton
Slime
Spider
Troll
Umber Hulk
Vampire
Wolf
Wyvern
Yuan-Ti
Zombie

Dragon Age + Expansions

Wolf
Bronto
Broodmother
Bear
Mabari
Rat
Deep Stalker
Giant Spider
Werewolf
Wilyd Sylvans
Bereskarn
Broodmother
Blight Wolf
Genlock
Hurlock
Ogre
Shriek
Archdemon
High Dragon
Dragonling
Drake
Steel Golem
Stone Golem
Ash Wraith
Pride Demon
Shade
Rage Demon
Succubus
Abomination
Arcane Horror
Corpses/Zombies
Skeletons
Children
Darkspawn Emissary
Inferno Golem
Harvester
Lady of the Forest/Witherfang
Revenant
Wisp

That's 47 for Baldur's Gate vs. 42 for Dragon Age. On the one hand there are more variants in Baldur's Gate 2, but on the other hand I didn't count a lot of variants in Dragon Age as well. I don't think I was all that inaccurate - if I made oversights or missed a lot of stuff, I blame Sorcerers.net. Considering there are far more cosmetic variations in Dragon Age despite the costs of creating high-quality 3D models and animations are also much higher, it's understandable enemy variety would be a bit lower.

Now when you cut out all the monsters reused from Baldur's Gate the First, you end up with a list of new monsters in Baldur's Gate 2 that's half the size. Do you want me to add Dragon Age 2 enemies to Dragon Age, or is that considered cheating even though Baldur's Gate 2 does the same?
 
Self-Ejected

Lilura

RPG Codex Dragon Lady
Joined
Feb 13, 2013
Messages
5,274
Only a newbie liek you would think using sleep on a 2hp creature that can't fukkin' hit shit is actually a smart use of spells. The sleep spell should eb sued for creatures that can actually do real damage to your aprty. ie wolves, gnolls 9espciially in BG1 with their elemental/poisonous arrows), and the like. Not fukkin' xfartz. You shoudln't be wasting spells - any spells - against xfartz. Theya ren't a threat. Period. Stop beinga fukkin' newb.

They're mookhordes. Hordes. Alone they're not dangerous, but you face ten and without AoE disablement you're gonna start getting hit even with low AC. On any given attack there is a 5% chance you will be hit, get a clue.
Sleep is THE spell for controlling mookhordes in the low levels.

Nah. Haste is more useful. Fireball is more sueful since instead of slowing things down you can outright kill them (most enemies you face for a good portion of BG1 will die or be near detah with one well palced 5d6 fireball (earliest you can get). Web is useful against opposing adventuring parties though I much prefer hold person against opposing groups. There are also other rather sueful spells you get in the BG series that are as useful if not more so. On top of that, in BG2 sleep is garbage b/c majority of enemies are flat out immune to it (too much HD) and the ones that aren't (ie. gobs in Irencius' dungeon) are not worth wasting a spell on them.

lol Only newbies waste spellslots on Fireball when there are several wands available, lol. And Slow is better than Haste when there's more of them than you.
also, Haste exhausts your characters afterwards. Its a good utility spell, but Web is supreme.

I don't think the defintion of nuance is what you think it is but nuance is not a word that describes the Sareviok fight -m espciially cosndieirng the #1 strategy newbs have for Sraveok is to spam monster summonmg spells and wands. LMFAO L A M E

I bet that's what you did lol
 

Shadenuat

Arcane
Joined
Dec 9, 2011
Messages
11,969
Location
Russia
That's 47 for Baldur's Gate vs. 41 for Dragon Age.
What's the point in throwing numbers around? Just compare how is Dragon in DA:O is any different from High Dragon/Shadow Dragon is different from Red Dragon in BG2, and the nature of the problem with DA:O's bestiary becomes clear.
 

Jim Cojones

Prophet
Joined
Nov 2, 2008
Messages
2,102
Location
Przenajswietsza Rzeczpospolita
That's a horrible way to judge monster variety in games. So, if I design a game with a single opponent to fight repeatedly but then add 100 different models and names to it, my game will have more variety in combat encounters than Baldur's Gate and DA combined?
 
Joined
Jan 7, 2012
Messages
14,284
I don't rest after every battle, so spell conservation is important. You can't use it in every battle in BG1 like you can throw it around like candy in BG2. And you most certainly can end up with 30 usages of web in BG2 from a few casters combined.

You... only need one casting of Web. Web is a level 2 spell, so in BG1 you should have about four castings (5 or 6 for Edwin) at a 161,000 XP level cap.
That is enough for a single mage to clean house on any dungeon level. And oh now you're talking about a mage party... well, you can have 6 mages in BG1, so I think that's enough to clean Durlag's Tower from top to bottom with Web, immunes excepted.

Level cap? I'm considering the other 95% of the game too you know. The part of the game where you don't even get your first web until level 3, and only get your 3rd at level 7. And you should be finishing the game at that point. I suppose you'll start talking about using time stop for every battle in BG2 now?

What's the point if throwing numbers around? Just compare how is Dragon in DA:O is any different from High Dragon/Shadow Dragon is different from Red Dragon in BG2, and the nature of the problem with DA:O's bestiary will become clear.

Exactly. Let me revise Sea's list:

Generic Warrior
Generic Warrior
Generic Warrior sorry, rogue
Generic Warrior
Generic Warrior
Generic Mage
.
.
.

Granted, BG's warriors have nothing special about them most of the time either, but the mage battles are vastly superior to casting your instant mage counter every battle in DA.
 
Self-Ejected

Lilura

RPG Codex Dragon Lady
Joined
Feb 13, 2013
Messages
5,274
All you're doing is lamely arguing that Web isn't as good as it is, why don't you just stop, you're embarrassing yourself like Volourn.
 
Joined
Jan 7, 2012
Messages
14,284
All you're doing is lamely arguing that Web isn't as good as it is, why don't you just stop, you're embarrassing yourself like Volourn.

No, I've argued Web is the best spell in the game. You are arguing that it's a plentiful spell in BG1, which is not true. Either you rest spam like a noob or do some form of XP grind to reach the level cap before actually playing the game.
 
Self-Ejected

Lilura

RPG Codex Dragon Lady
Joined
Feb 13, 2013
Messages
5,274
No, I've argued Web is the best spell in the game. You are arguing that it's a plentiful spell in BG1, which is not true.

lol, plentiful to you was spamming 30 times per dungeon, as you said earlier (not even in Yaga-Shura's lair do you need that many). Plentiful to me is casting it a few times (or several times with 2 mages) per 8 hour rest.

Done with you bro, this is a sad "debate", you're making me miss Volourn. lol
 

Volourn

Pretty Princess
Pretty Princess Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Mar 10, 2003
Messages
24,924
"Except in NWN you don't have a PARTY?"

Yes, you do, going by the DND defintion of 'party'. party is a group of adventurers which is as low as 2 and as high as infinity. Nice try, thoughj.

"They're mookhordes. Hordes. Alone they're not dangerous, but you face ten and without AoE disablement you're gonna start getting hit even with low AC. On any given attack there is a 5% chance you will be hit, get a clue.
Sleep is THE spell for controlling mookhordes in the low levels."

Youa re an idiot. Whjy are yous os cared fo xfartz? theya re not dangerous. Even in large groups. FFS Just rape them and be done with it. Or, if you really fear them, justc asta fireball and murder them all in on eblast. Anyonw who think sleep or spell are the moist powerful spells in the Bg series is stupid. Neitehr is fireball. All 3 of them lose their usefulness as you level.


"lol Only newbies waste spellslots on Fireball when there are several wands available, lol. And Slow is better than Haste when there's more of them than you.
also, Haste exhausts your characters afterwards. Its a good utility spell, but Web is supreme."

Only pansies need an inventory full of wands. REAL adventuers really on their knowledge and basic equipment not 20 fukkin' wands. Are you a wuss when you play games?

Slow has a save. Haste does not. And, for 99% of battles in BG will be over before haste runs outs. Web is a good low level spell but it is not the most powerful spell in the series. That's bullocks. FFS FFS just power word kill them all. LMFAO Or prismatic spray. Or just summona fukkin' demon or an angel and rape the fuckers. Those are the mostb powerfuls pells in the series not the fukkin' mae az 1st or 2nd or 3rd level spell.

"I bet that's what you did lo"

Read my above comment about wussy wands.



As for # ofg monsters, sea is right. people over exaggerate the number of monsters in Bg series compared to DA. besdies, NWN beats them both. R00fles!
 
Self-Ejected

Lilura

RPG Codex Dragon Lady
Joined
Feb 13, 2013
Messages
5,274
Youa re an idiot. Whjy are yous os cared fo xfartz? theya re not dangerous. Even in large groups. FFS Just rape them and be done with it. Or, if you really fear them, justc asta fireball and murder them all in on eblast.

You're the one fixated on xfartz, I'm talking about any trashmob that's isn't immune to Sleep, Sleep puts them down so that they can be hacked up.
I bet you have your level 1 spellslots filled with Magic Missile like the laughable pissant newbie you are lol

Anyonw who think sleep or spell are the moist powerful spells in the Bg series is stupid. Neitehr is fireball. All 3 of them lose their usefulness as you level.

I'm not talking about the BG series, where's your reading comprehension, I'm talking about BG1+ToSC. Sleep, Blindness and Web remain generally useful through the whole game.

Only pansies need an inventory full of wands. REAL adventuers really on their knowledge and basic equipment not 20 fukkin' wands. Are you a wuss when you play games?

Real adventurers utilize and improvise what they find while adventuring. Only newbies clog up their slots with Fireball because they don't know about wands which free them up for more variety of spells and have very little cast-time compared to the spell.

Slow has a save. Haste does not. And, for 99% of battles in BG will be over before haste runs outs.

Enemies in BG1 are low level and so generally don't make their saves. Its wiser to slow a large pack of enemies than to Haste yourself, you will take less damage. Plus Haste has the drawback of exhausting your party (repeating myself here).

Web is a good low level spell but it is not the most powerful spell in the series.

Its the most powerful spell in BG1+ToSC, all things considered. Webbed enemies cannot damage you, but hasting yourself against enemies who are free can damage you, meaning you then need to heal and/or rest.
Only newbies take damage, veterans immobilise and kill at their leisure.

That's bullocks. FFS FFS just power word kill them all. LMFAO Or prismatic spray. Or just summona fukkin' demon or an angel and rape the fuckers. Those are the mostb powerfuls pells in the series not the fukkin' mae az 1st or 2nd or 3rd level spell.

Those are BG2 spells, I'm not saying Web is superior to them. But Web does remain a useful spell even in Throne of Bhaal. That cannot be said of Haste which is eclipsed by Improved Haste, and Fireball which is eclipsed by Sunfire, Dragon's Breath and a few other epic AoE incinerations.
 

ZagorTeNej

Arcane
Joined
Dec 10, 2012
Messages
1,980
You have gone full retard.
Have I?

Baldur's Gate 2 + Expansions

Ankheg
Bear
Beholder
Carrion Crawlers
Demon Knight
Doppelganger
Dragon
Drow
Elementals
Ettercap
Ettin
Evil Demons
Genie
Ghoul
Gibberling
Gnoll
Goblin
Golem
Hobgoblin
Illithid
Imp
Kobold
Kuo-Toa
Lich
Lizardmen
Mephit
Minotaur
Mist
Mummy
Myconid
Ogre
Orc
Otyugh
Rakshasa
Sahuagin
Salamander
Shadow
Skeleton
Slime
Spider
Troll
Umber Hulk
Vampire
Wolf
Wyvern
Yuan-Ti
Zombie

Dragon Age + Expansions

Wolf
Bronto
Broodmother
Bear
Mabari
Rat
Deep Stalker
Giant Spider
Werewolf
Wilyd Sylvans
Bereskarn
Broodmother
Blight Wolf
Genlock
Hurlock
Ogre
Shriek
Archdemon
High Dragon
Dragonling
Drake
Steel Golem
Stone Golem
Ash Wraith
Pride Demon
Shade
Rage Demon
Succubus
Abomination
Arcane Horror
Corpses/Zombies
Skeletons
Children
Darkspawn Emissary
Inferno Golem
Harvester
Lady of the Forest/Witherfang
Revenant

That's 47 for Baldur's Gate vs. 41 for Dragon Age. On the one hand there are more variants in Baldur's Gate 2, but on the other hand I didn't count a lot of variants in Dragon Age as well. I don't think I was all that inaccurate - if I made oversights or missed a lot of stuff, I blame Sorcerers.net. Considering there are far more cosmetic variations in Dragon Age despite the costs of creating high-quality 3D models and animations are also much higher, it's understandable enemy variety would be a bit lower.

Now when you cut out all the monsters reused from Baldur's Gate the First, you end up with a list of new monsters in Baldur's Gate 2 that's half the size. Do you want me to add Dragon Age 2 enemies to Dragon Age, or is that considered cheating even though Baldur's Gate 2 does the same?

On first glance it appears that the DA list includes "unique" bosses/encounters while BG list only contains generic monsters but regardless that's besides the point, throwing around # of differently named enemies doesn't mean anything unless we take a look at what each of them brings to the table and does it require a specific set of tactics (does it force you to adapt).

Playing through Dragon Age (I played through it twice) my conclusion is that it largely boils down to fighting the same fighter, rogue, mage templates throughout the vast majority of the game, it doesn't matter if one members of such group are classified as human enemies and the other as darkspawns, the difference is purely cosmetic and you end up using the same tactics again and again (cone of cold, mana clash for the mages etc.), of course there are some unique enemies (apart from bosses) that can spice things up (such as shadow werewolves and arcane horrors for example) but not nearly enough IMO.

On the other hand in BG series compare the difference between fighting vampires, adamantium golems,liches, beholders, trolls and basilisks for example, of course once you figure them out none of those encounters are particulary challenging on their own but they're each vastly different, it's about variety in approach and tactics needed to counter what specific creature brings to the table not about it having a different name/skin.
 

ZagorTeNej

Arcane
Joined
Dec 10, 2012
Messages
1,980
DAO is even easier unless you're a masochist trying to play a rogue.

Are you serious?

Dexterity rogue - slap some protection from magic on and almost nothing can touch you in the game after a certain point.

Cunning rogue - shit dies before you can blink, most boss battles become a breeze.
 

VentilatorOfDoom

Administrator
Staff Member
Joined
Apr 4, 2009
Messages
8,600
Location
Deutschland
The list is crap. In DA he lists all golems (steel golem, stone golem, inferno golem etc) whereas in the BG2 list there's just "Golem". LOLOL nice double standards, just like grouping all tanarri/baatezu under "evil demons" but dutifully naming all kinds of DA demons. Even a *succubus* was apparently to be found somewhere in DA. e.g. why list genlock, hurlock, ogre etc instead of just "darkspawn" but write "beholders" instead of gauth, eye tyrant, death tyrant, overseer, spectator, elder orb, hive mother? If you think the enemy variety in DA was anywhere near BG2 odds are you're fucking retarded.

Apparently BG2 had about 130 unique monsters, according to
http://www.planetbaldursgate.com/bg2/encounters/monsters/list/
 

Kem0sabe

Arcane
Joined
Mar 7, 2011
Messages
13,094
Location
Azores Islands
Only thing difficult about the BG series were some of the encounters in ToB, especially with mods, otherwise both games were remarkably lenient on both player builds and equipment.
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
35,836
Now that I think back on it, earlier levels of Dragon Age had a similar level of bullshit with enemies who have those "knock you over and bite you on the face until you die" attacks. Main reason why an early random encounter with a pack of a dozen or so wolves can easily lead to a TPK. And of course the only two companions who are outright immune to it are a dog who's more or less useless until late-game and a DLC golem.
Shield Wall for Sword and Shield and Indomitable for two-handers bro. I remembered that these don't work against the overwhelm ability, sorry. ^_^
Two handed was the worst of the lot.
...
Healer IS needed
No. Learn2playwithoutcheesing.

Generic Warrior
Generic Warrior
Generic Warrior sorry, rogue
Generic Warrior
Generic Warrior
Generic Mage
Oh, some of them have more customization than that. Plus http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Resistances and http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Immunity
Everyone being susceptible to cone of cold's freezing effect must be some sort of nasty engine bug since it was never fixed until DA2. That it works against enemies that are resistant/immune to cold is bullshit.

Granted, BG's warriors have nothing special about them most of the time either, but the mage battles are vastly superior to casting your instant mage counter every battle in DA.
True, but it does require four levels to get. Also fixed in DA2 (by removing it and mana/stamina values for all enemies :troll: )
 

Zboj Lamignat

Arcane
Joined
Feb 15, 2012
Messages
5,552
BG2 is not an easy game if you play it for the first time and/or without cheese. Even with cheese there are places and encounters that can be quite deadly depending on your party composition. But yeah, if you know the game well it can become a cakewalk, but it's a fun cakewalk nonetheless.

As for DA and BG I don't care and neither should you.
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
Patron
Joined
Jan 4, 2007
Messages
33,163
Location
KA.DINGIR.RA.KI
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Generally, trash encounters in BG2 were quickly finished but drained some of your resources, and difficult encounters required you to use everything you have at your disposal in order to prevail and enemies would make use of their abilities and spells.

DA had shitty trash encounters that took long to finish and weren't of any consequence because HURR AUTO HEALTH REGEN and the few memorable encounters that it had weren't as challenging as BG2 ones.
 

sea

inXile Entertainment
Developer
Joined
May 3, 2011
Messages
5,698
On first glance it appears that the DA list includes "unique" bosses/encounters while BG list only contains generic monsters but regardless that's besides the point, throwing around # of differently named enemies doesn't mean anything unless we take a look at what each of them brings to the table and does it require a specific set of tactics (does it force you to adapt).
And how many monsters in Baldur's Gate can't be completely and utterly steamrolled by using the tried and true "2 warriors + haste + all buffs + rest and repeat" combo? What "varied tactics" does that require? And why do Baldur's Gate 2 palatte swaps count as "unique monsters" while in Dragon Age they don't? In Dragon Age, the enemies have just as many distinguishing factors (spells/skills available, equipment, etc.) than most monsters in Baldur's Gate 2 do, with their 1 spell each they spam before bum-rushing you in melee.

I agree Baldur's Gate 2 is better overall, but people also highly overstate both the variety in tactics and enemy variety. There are just as many monsters that fight identically but have different models/animations as in Dragon Age, just that the aesthetics are more varied.

And no, if you are talking tactics and monster special abilities, you can't include mods, some of which very heavily tweak the enemy AI scripts, abilities, etc.

The list is crap. In DA he lists all golems (steel golem, stone golem, inferno golem etc) whereas in the BG2 list there's just "Golem". LOLOL nice double standards, just like grouping all tanarri/baatezu under "evil demons" but dutifully naming all kinds of DA demons. Even a *succubus* was apparently to be found somewhere in DA. e.g. why list genlock, hurlock, ogre etc instead of just "darkspawn" but write "beholders" instead of gauth, eye tyrant, death tyrant, overseer, spectator, elder orb, hive mother? If you think the enemy variety in DA was anywhere near BG2 odds are you're fucking retarded.
You're right, I fucked up listing the golems separately vs. individually between the two games.

Succubus in Dragon Age = Desire Demon.

To be fair I have not played Baldur's Gate 2 in some time, and the list was taken from another site. They consolidated several unique enemies under the same headers in some cases. I knew I'd miss some stuff.

Even still I don't know if it's fair to directly compare enemy variety in a 2D game with much smaller art requirements, and with the benefit of having half its bestiary taken from its previous game, with a fully 3D game with higher art requirements relatively speaking for each enemy, and one that doesn't recycle content from a previous game.
 

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