DAO vs BG1&2 difficulty

[DemonKing]

NWN> BG2 > DA > DA2 > ME > ME2 > JE > BG1 > ME3 > KOTOR

I hate to bait magical Volo but how did NWN end up at the top of this list? At least in most of the other Bio titles you have some degree of control over party members other than your own character, whereas in NWN the AI takes charge of NPCS as far as I recall.

If you're talking about combat in a multiplayer game I guess there might be some argument for NWN as each individual character would be controlled by a human player but for my money it is far and away the worst Bio game in terms of combat if taken purely from a single-player perspective.

Back to the original question though I would put BG and BG2 above DAO in terms of difficulty - because you can spam powers in DAO and there are a smaller variety of enemies it's much easier to rinse and repeat the same tactics over and over again. In BG and BG2 utilising spells/magic items is much more a question of resource management and given that creatures have a number of different immunities/attacks/special powers you need to be a lot more adaptable than in DAO. Saying that, DAO did have a handful of quite challenging encounters but there was an awful lot of filler combat in between.

 

[Stonewolf]

The only parts difficult in BG2 is when you leave home without Breach or when your Breach-carrier gets fucked up by some ridiculous instagib like Imprisonement or Petrification or Ray of Whatever. Which is lazy encounter design, "we cant make AI mages to be a challenge so we give them retarded instakill spells and laugh at unprepared people".

DAO is even easier unless you're a masochist trying to play a rogue.

 

[Volourn]

"Someone needs to learn to cast Sleep on lolXfartz and other mookhordes."

Why would anyone waste a 1st level spell slot on xfartz? they ain't a threat with thir 2hp and their thaco of 50 and their 2 points of damage. L0L Are you such an idiot youw aste spells on those jokers? I bet you are the type of player whos creams when you see a horde of goblins and cast fireball to mass murder them even thoguh they ain't no threat. HAHAHA!

"I hate to bait magical Volo but how did NWN end up at the top of this list? At least in most of the other Bio titles you have some degree of control over party members other than your own character, whereas in NWN the AI takes charge of NPCS as far as I recall."

As it should be in a REAL RPG. I shouldn't be able to control companions like a 6 headed monster ala BG. The npcs should be controlling themselves.

But, even thata side, NWN just gives you way more combat options. In BG, your fighter can't do nothing BUT attack. That's it. In NWN, your fighter has so many more options. Rogues ar emore danger in 3E than 2E due sneak attack being FAR superior to backstab. Both NWN and BG series (mostly BG2) are about even in terms of spells (though BG2 has those save spells for later spells lol that people live and die by).

I can udnerstand why people would say BG2 campaign is better than NWN OC combat. But, NWN combat is superior overall.


"DAO did have a handful of quite challenging encounters but there was an awful lot of filler combat in between."

That's true for every RPg ever. In fact, 90% of Bg's combat is filler that you randomly enocunter while randomly farming maps. I can't diss BG2 combat since it is aweosme and holds its own against any RPG.

 

[Lilura]

How hard is Baldur's Gate compared to Dragon Age Origins on Nightmare?

BG1 is far less forgiving than DAO, assuming default difficulties.

You start off kinda squishy and really feel the weight of RNG on "to-hit" and saving throw rolls.

Some level 1 fights are 50/50 odds unless you know what you're doing, min-max and gear-up.

A level 1 mage in BG1 has like 6hps max which means one stray trashmob arrow can kill him.
A level 1 fighter has 15hps max and can be killed by a wolf in melee.
A level 1 party of six can be waylaid by several bandits and TPKayd.

By contrast, probably only if you suck will you die in DA:O at early levels. I would even say, for a newbie, DA:O with RAVAge and Smarter AI is still more forgiving than BG1.

There are many tactics to overcome BG1 low level squishiness but newbies will probably die many times before learning them, though once you learn the tricks BG1 becomes a total cakewalk joke, even with SCS, whereas DA:O with tactics mods remains a challenge due mainly to more advanced scripting and random encounters.

Why would anyone waste a 1st level spell slot on xfartz? they ain't a threat with thir 2hp and their thaco of 50 and their 2 points of damage. L0L Are you such an idiot youw aste spells on those jokers? I bet you are the type of player whos creams when you see a horde of goblins and cast fireball to mass murder them even thoguh they ain't no threat. HAHAHA!

Hush. A mookhorde can rape a level 1 party for a newbie to BG1 like yourself, one casting of Sleep turns the tide.

 

[DemonKing]

As it should be in a REAL RPG. I shouldn't be able to control companions like a 6 headed monster ala BG. The npcs should be controlling themselves.

That's a fine principle, but if the AI is rubbish the gameplay suffers - plus a lot of people like the ability to control an entire party because they find it more tactically interesting than controlling one character and hoping that Ai-controlled NPCS actually do something useful *and* don't get in the way. Also, you get to experience and experiment with a variety of different classes that you just can't do in NWN.

That's true for every RPg ever. In fact, 90% of Bg's combat is filler that you randomly enocunter while randomly farming maps. I can't diss BG2 combat since it is aweosme and holds its own against any RPG.

The problem is that in BG/BG2 the filler combat might be a bunch of gnolls here, an Ankheg there, some giant spiders next etc etc wheres in DAO It's the same few things over and over again (Deep Roads in particular I'm looking at you).

 

[Lilura]

But, even thata side, NWN just gives you way more combat options. In BG, your fighter can't do nothing BUT attack. That's it.

lol, but clickyfeats still fail to make NWN1 combat engaging... at level 1 you're auto-poking a mook once every 6 secs, or twice with a henchman, with the odd sanity-saving Cleave thrown in.

BG1 at least has up to like six attacks going on per round and those can occur every three seconds if you double the framerate in config.

You can just do far, far more in a BG1 round than a brain-numbingly boring NWN1 round. And this holds true no matter what level you are due to the nuance of having up to six party members, which can be any class and many combinations of class (duals, multis).

Comparing the final battle in BG1 with Sarevok with the final NWN1 battle, I can only laugh mockingly at the simplistic and limited latter!

 

[Oesophagus]

The only parts difficult in BG2 is when you leave home without Breach or when your Breach-carrier gets fucked up by some ridiculous instagib like Imprisonement or Petrification or Ray of Whatever. Which is lazy encounter design, "we cant make AI mages to be a challenge so we give them retarded instakill spells and laugh at unprepared people".

Yup, the rock-paper-scissors approach gets really old really fast.

Basically, BG2 allows for 80 pounds of cheese tactics. Protection from undead - own all liches (well, except Kangaxx), set snare around Shadow dragon - fight difficulty down 90%

 

[sser]

BG's difficulty really stems from a knowledge-check, or how much you know about the game itself. Dragon Age stems mostly from learning to juggle skills and potions.

Both games have a few difficult set pieces, IMO, but for the most part can be totally cheesed, too.

 

[Jick Magger]

Now that I think back on it, earlier levels of Dragon Age had a similar level of bullshit with enemies who have those "knock you over and bite you on the face until you die" attacks. Main reason why an early random encounter with a pack of a dozen or so wolves can easily lead to a TPK. And of course the only two companions who are outright immune to it are a dog who's more or less useless until late-game and a DLC golem.

 

[visions]

DAO is even easier unless you're a masochist trying to play a rogue.

Maybe you mean a ranged rogue.

Playing as a melee rogue (specialized into assassin/duellist) was mostly easy. At least on hard, wouldn't know about nightmare. The fighters in my party seemed the least useful, my rogue was quite capable compared to them, from midgame onwards definitely.

It was harder in the early game though, but the only part that was deserving of being called masochistic was having to mostly solo the the fade, since I couldn't heal myself and ran out of potions.

By contrast, probably only if you suck will you die in DA:O at early levels.

Funny, at least on hard I died at the early levels way more frequently than later on. The point after which I hardly ever lost a combat was after I took the first healing spell for my mage.

Disclaimer: I stopped playing after doing the 4 hubs and before going to the landsmeet though, don't know about difficulty from that point on. Also I didn't beat Flemeth as Morrigan wanted me, since you can't use her in that fight but she was my only mage, that fight without a mage seemed a major pain in the ass.

EDIT: I found the dog more useful than the fighters. Early game due to that aoe stun power, with which I always started the fights with when applicable, later because of overwhelm.

 

[Volourn]

"Hush. A mookhorde can rape a level 1 party for a newbie to BG1 like yourself, one casting of Sleep turns the tide"

LOL I'v elikely been playing DND as long as you've been alive, my Codexian child.


"asically, BG2 allows for 80 pounds of cheese tactics. Protection from undead - own all liches (well, except Kangaxx), set snare around Shadow dragon - fight difficulty down 90"

Only cowardly scumbags piece sof crap use such evil pathetic tatcis.



"Comparing the final battle in BG1 with Sarevok with the final NWN1 battle, I can only laugh mockingly at the simplistic and limited latter"

L0L Sarevok L0L

"Also, you get to experience and experiment with a variety of different classes that you just can't do in NWN."

You can keep playing. Just like in pnp, you cna just create more characters. Multi headed monsters is not role-playinmg and it's not pnp.


"The problem is that in BG/BG2 the filler combat might be a bunch of gnolls here, an Ankheg there, some giant spiders next etc etc wheres in DAO It's the same few things over and over again (Deep Roads in particular I'm looking at you)."

The variety of enemy difference between BG and DA is not as big a speople think. BG2 is different since it has a lot more to pull from.

 

[tuluse]

Maybe you mean a ranged rogue.

Playing as a melee rogue (specialized into assassin/duellist) was mostly easy. At least on hard, wouldn't know about nightmare. The fighters in my party seemed the least useful, my rogue was quite capable compared to them, from midgame onwards definitely.

It was harder in the early game though, but the only part that was deserving of being called masochistic was having to mostly solo the the fade, since I couldn't heal myself and ran out of potions.


Funny, at least on hard I died at the early levels way more frequently than later on. The point after which I hardly ever lost a combat was after I took the first healing spell for my mage.

Disclaimer: I stopped playing after doing the 4 hubs and before going to the landsmeet though, don't know about difficulty from that point on. Also I didn't beat Flemeth as Morrigan wanted me, since you can't use her in that fight but she was my only mage, that fight without a mage seemed a major pain in the ass.

EDIT: I found the dog more useful than the fighters. Early game due to that aoe stun power, with which I always started the fights with when applicable, later because of overwhelm.

I remember 2 handed fighters being useful, but sword and shield fighter were probably the worst class in the game.

 

[Volourn]

No.

 

[Average Manatee]

BG2 changes this because then you just cast web or w/e and don't have to run around.

You do realise that Web is the most powerful spell in BG1 and that Free Action is readily available, don't you?

Yes, but you don't have the spell slots to spam it 30 times in a single dungeon, now do you?

 

[Volourn]

Plus, Web is not the most powerful spell in BG1. L0LZ

 

[Lilura]

LOL I'v elikely been playing DND as long as you've been alive, my Codexian child.

Probably, but you still seem like a newbie when you say that one casting of a highly effective level 1 crowd control spell is "a waste" and that "only an idiot" would cast it and that mookhordes are "no threat".
That's like three utterly idiotic pronouncements in a single shitpost, and makes me think you know nothing about how valuable the Sleep spell is not only at early levels, but throughout the entire game. I mean its second only to Web overall, and as situationally useful on mooks as Blindness is on tougher enemies.
Just please lol if you're gonna troll stick to NWN1, a game you actually know at least a miniscule bit about?

L0L Sarevok L0L

Awesome response, I guess you didn't wanna think too hard about how nuanced the final battle of BG1 is compared to the NWN OC yawnfest?
Thinking hurts, trolling's 2nd nature!

You can keep playing. Just like in pnp, you cna just create more characters. Multi headed monsters is not role-playinmg and it's not pnp.

So just because you tactically control the party members you recruit then that makes BG1 not an RPG? lol I'd rather have full control over my party anyday than have them act as daftly as they do in the tactically puerile NWN, and I don't really care if that's not like PnP because I'm not playing PnP I'm playing a CRPG...

 

[tuluse]

No.

What's the worst class in DA?

 

[Lilura]

Yes, but you don't have the spell slots to spam it 30 times in a single dungeon, now do you?

You don't have the spellslots to spam any spell 30 times, what's your point... Web is the most powerful spell in BG1 and can be cast enough times (once is enough) in almost every encounter to completely turn the tide, especially with archers outside its AoE and meleers with Free Action inside it. Web = I Win, and its even more effective in BG1 than it is in BG2 due to BG2 enemies having better saving throws and/or immunity.

 

[Average Manatee]

Plus, Web is not the most powerful spell in BG1. L0LZ

Pretty much is the most powerful general-use spell in BG1 and 2 for anything that isn't immune, assuming you aren't cheesing. AoE - check, disabler - check, save penalty - check, hold - check. God help your enemies if you throw 2 or 3 webs down, no chance of making all the saves then.

Yes, but you don't have the spell slots to spam it 30 times in a single dungeon, now do you?

You don't have the spellslots to spam any spell 30 times, what's your point... Web is the most powerful spell in BG1 and can be cast enough times (once is enough) in almost every encounter to completely turn the tide, especially with archers outside its AoE and meleers with Free Action inside it. Web = I Win, and its even more effective in BG1 than it is in BG2 due to BG2 enemies having better saving throws and/or immunity.

I don't rest after every battle, so spell conservation is important. You can't use it in every battle in BG1 like you can throw it around like candy in BG2. And you most certainly can end up with 30 usages of web in BG2 from a few casters combined. You can even multi-cast it if you are paranoid about saves.

 

[tuluse]

Two handed was the worst of the lot. They attract huge aggro and have little defense and die like flies on nightmare which is a cheesefest anyway. The best damage dealers are without a doubt mages and since you can't have 4 mages (otherwise you could just make one Arcane warrior + 3 'mages') you'd best go for 3 mages and a Sword+shield guy.

I only played through the game once, and I found sword and shield guys pretty useless. Aggro doesn't even matter if you can stun your enemies, all that matters is dps.

 

[Captain Shrek]

all that matters is dps.

Then use Mages! if you are using Two handed for Damage you are losing DPS and forcing constant healing. Healer IS needed but with a S+S guy he has does not have to heal so often and focus on blasting enemies to shit.

 

[sea]

The variety of enemy difference between BG and DA is not as big a speople think. BG2 is different since it has a lot more to pull from.

I think this is very true. It's also worth considering that Baldur's Gate 2 has the benefit of an entire prior game's worth of art assets, sounds, etc. to draw upon. Compared to Dragon Age there are more exotic and varied monsters, however Dragon Age has close to the same number in total - they are just less exotic and impressive in comparsion (no beholders).

 

[Lilura]

Pretty much is the most powerful general-use spell in BG1 and 2 for anything that isn't immune, assuming you aren't cheesing. AoE - check, disabler - check, save penalty - check, hold - check. God help your enemies if you throw 2 or 3 webs down, no chance of making all the saves then.

They're held, they can't move or even attack, like with Entangle they could fire a bow, and their AC is null and void, they are auto-hit (except on crit miss).

I don't rest after every battle, so spell conservation is important. You can't use it in every battle in BG1 like you can throw it around like candy in BG2. And you most certainly can end up with 30 usages of web in BG2 from a few casters combined.

You... only need one casting of Web. Web is a level 2 spell, so in BG1 you should have about four castings (5 or 6 for Edwin) at a 161,000 XP level cap.
That is enough for a single mage to clean house on any dungeon level. And oh now you're talking about a mage party... well, you can have 6 mages in BG1, so I think that's enough to clean Durlag's Tower from top to bottom with Web, immunes excepted.

 

[Shadenuat]

If you never played IE games, they can be brutal and deadly, because a lot of opinions about their difficulty you'll hear comes from meta knowledge. Somewhere where DA:O will leave you with only a few party members standing and forgive and forget with it's potion chunking, spells spamming and kiting, in BG you'll enjoy full experience of TPK.

As for Fallout, Arcanum and NWN1&2, don't be afraid of those. They are based around smaller parties or even solo play, and are not that hard to figure out.

 

[Lilura]

Tactically control party members my ass. It is a pain and a lot of hassle to do in real time. Party based games are best done via Tb mechanics as TOEE can show any day. The fact is that BG1/2 AI is dumb and that is why the entire thing is viable.

No shit. But we're not talking about ToEE, are we? We're talking about the comparatively shitty RtWP BG+NWN...