Crispy™ Controversial opinions about RPGs that you know deep down are true.

[rusty_shackleford]

and the mask comes off

I am going to start a group that will lobby every cRPG developer for cooldowns to limit the power of dress wearers. Men wearing dresses should NOT be powerful.

 

[Cryomancer]

Are RPGs supposed to be realism simulators?
Should Underrail get rid of all the psi stuff too?

Psi exists on Underrail world. Now, If I throw a molotov, WHY i need to wait X turns to throw it again?

RPG's started from war gaming which was simulator. The greatest early RPG dev/publisher was SSI. Strategic simulations INC.

How is "look at all these spells I was able to spam in one fight" a good argument against cooldowns?

I din't spammed the same spell. Used tons of different spells in a more natural way than always spam the same rotation over and over.

and the mask comes off

I am going to start a group that will lobby every cRPG developer for cooldowns to limit the power of dress wearers. Men wearing dresses should NOT be powerful.

hur dur "dresses". hur dur, a skeleton should be more powerful than a lich because the lich uses a robe", hur dur

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

Because the tradeoff is that you can just use it again immediately for as many times as you memorized it.
How is "cooldowns bad because you use most powerful spells" an argument when you do the same exact thing with Vancian except with no pause inbetween?

But if you use them unwisely you won't have them later when you need them. You can't just wait few turns for your slots to recover, they are gone for the rest of the combat.

At any reasonably high level play in D&D cRPGs you have a ridiculous amount of spells capable of being memorized to begin with. How many spells can Edwin memorize by level 20 in BG2? 60+ or somesuch I'd assume? And that's not even mentioning what a high level wildmage can do. You've basically moved far beyond having any form of resource management here even without rest spamming.

Yep, high levels are pretty garbage, and ToB is borderline parody.

Let's say you cast it on turn 1 and oh no, on turn 3 you need to kill an enemy quickly for reasons but your highest damaging ability is on cooldown because you used the bigbrain idea from rpgcodex.

If combat is nothing but attacking one enemy for multiple turns straight with nothing else happening, then yes, I'll completely agree with your assertion that the game is designed horribly and it has nothing to do with cooldowns.

In that case more often than not it was better to somehow get through that turn with whatever was not on cooldown rather then being stingy with my best ability and only using it two times in a fight instead of five. It's less dangerous to just deal with casting one spell a bit later rather than casting less powerful spells overall and as a result having to deal with more enemies for longer time.

Let's say you cast it on turn 1 and oh no, on turn 3 you need to kill an enemy quickly for reasons but your highest damaging ability is on cooldown because you used the bigbrain idea from rpgcodex.

It's only a problem when it's "use that spell right here, right now or die" which almost never happens, otherwise all parties without that one spell would not be able to progress.
Sure not being able to cast a spell when you want it sucks. But it's the same no matter what resources system you use. If you need to cast a specific sell on turn 3 and are out of mana/slots you are still screwed. The difference is that cooldowns are the only system that punishesh you for conserving your abilities. Which is why it often devolves into cycling through your strongest abilities.

Basically, if you like fights where nothing happens except BIG NUMBERS BIG DAMAGE NUMBA WON! then you might dislike cooldowns.

It's always better to do bigger damage regardless of the combat system. Taking out as many foes as early as possible will always be advantageous since dead people don't get turns.

 

[Nano]

Some cooldown RPGs give casters so many spells that they're never not casting spells either.

I am going to start a group that will lobby every cRPG developer for cooldowns to limit the power of dress wearers. Men wearing dresses should NOT be powerful.

Do you think fighter/mages are actually dress wearers in disguise?

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Do you think fighter/mages are actually dress wearers in disguise?

All mages are dress wearers.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

 

[Nano]

On the other hand, the wizard can cast Time Spot and literally rape the cleric.

 

[retinoid]

I hate Nig

Spoiler

ht

in RPGs. Always makes me afraid of going outside especially if I'm in a new area.

 

[Cryomancer]

This only reforces your anti magic bias. Everything that a wizard can do, a cleric can do in armor, with better saves, with double hit dice(...)However, balancefags rarely complain about clerics.

 

[Ol' Willy]

Now, If I throw a molotov, WHY i need to wait X turns to throw it again?

Nobody did that, so it's job for Ol' Willy to clarify the matter.

It stems to Ol' Good Fallout and Arcanum, particularly their combat systems. Fallout and Arcanum combat systems are wild - as in wild capitalism. There are overpowered skills/weapons/abilities, there are underpowered, but aside from resource management nothing stops you from abusing the most powerful tool you have. You can spam Eye Shots several times per turn every encounter, you can spam Harm - etc. While such systems have their particular charm, they are easily abused and experienced player encounters no challenge whatsoever.

Styg did the easiest thing to counter that - put cooldowns on everything. Aimed shot is basically Eye Shot from Fallout, but with cooldown. Grenades are disgustingly OP, but cooldown nerfs them a little. Cooldowns here limit the player and add more tactics to combat - you can't just spam your favourite special to dispatch of any menace (unless you play the superior BRR build, which is the closest thing you will get to vanilla Fallout skulbashery), you had to come up with the working tactic. And different types of enemies require different tactics - multiply this the number of possible builds, and here is your lauded combat complexity.

Now, what alternatives there are? There are two, and none of them will work.
You can't limit the amount of OP stuff, for Underrail is the open-ended game, with randomized loot, refreshable traders, crafting and respawning enemies. Age of Decadence has limited resources, but AoD is close-ended game and it's possible to do there. Simply not possible in Underrail.
Other way is to nerf everything to the ground. Nerf everything that has cooldown. Sadly, this will make the game boring and will completely ruin the balance. Underrail combat is quick and deadly, with people and critters dying fast; nerfing everything will turn it into a boring slog and war of attrition when everyone removes 10% of opponent HP each turn.

So, no, cooldowns in Underrail have no realistic explanation. Crafting in Underrail is quite unrealistic too. But this is the needed evil, the needed formality, without which you wouldn't get this awesome and challenging combat system.

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

Wouldn't limiting the number of combat utilities you can use solve the problem with grenades? You can't equip them during the combat. So letting you put one or two grenades in one slot should solve the issue.

 

[Ol' Willy]

So letting you put one or two grenades in one slot should solve the issue.

And this is even more unrealistic

 

[PapaPetro]

aimed shot has a 3 turn cooldown because it takes 3 turns to properly line up an aimed shot
welp guess you love cooldowns now

Wouldn't that be a 3 turn charge-up instead of cooldown then?

You be discrete and hide it so that it flows.
Get the player to not think about numbers and have it feel natural.

Too much damn overt quantification ruins immersion; feels like I'm playing an Excel spreadsheet rather than getting lost in an RPG.

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

So letting you put one or two grenades in one slot should solve the issue.

And this is even more unrealistic

I'm pretty sure Styg could explain why using grenades as body armour is a bad idea.

 

[CaffeineConquistador]

So letting you put one or two grenades in one slot should solve the issue.

And this is even more unrealistic

I'm pretty sure Styg could explain why using grenades as body armour is a bad idea.

That and a good chunk of them will be used in the first ponds and lakes those boys hit.

 

[Tyranicon]

The only coherent argument out of these posts so far is "man, mages in D&D are really fucking overpowered and I sure do hope cRPGs do nothing to change that."

This balance cult is part of why most modern RPG's sucks. And the problem with D&D is not that casters are OP. Is that martial classes are BOOOORING.

I don't know why anybody would roll a fighter or ranger in 5e. You have the fewest options in combat, lack the godliness of a barbarian, and are generally relegated to being a trash-tier RP-heavy tank or shooter, in a game that doesn't really have a tank role, and has waaaaay better shooters.

Here's the combat options for a level 20 champion fighter:

1. Attack x 4
2. Second Wind
3. Action Surge (attack more lol)
4. Whatever underpowered fighting style you took

And reddit goes "oh but wait, you can RP it all!" Yeah, like I need more RP in battles that take >1hr.

Then you have wizards that can stop time and blow up cities. Balanced my ass. At level 20, fighters should be literal demigods that can hurl houses and explode monsters by breathing on them too hard.

Any DnD martial besides barbarian is for scrubs.

 

[Cryomancer]

as in wild capitalism. There are overpowered skills/weapons/abilities

Since you talked about capitalism, "balance" is like the government trying to bring "equality" and the result is always worse. Cuba before the revolution had more Europeans living in Cuba than Cubans living on Europe. Argentina before Peron, was richer in GDP per capita than Canada. Equality just like balance can only exists by leveling everything into the lowest common denominator.


Low INT runs on fallout 1/2 are far from optimal but are fun non the less. Faggout 76 is far more balanced. Everyone is a clone.

Any DnD martial besides barbarian is for scrubs.

Gladiador in dark sun is amazing too. I have a lv 15 half giant gladiator on Dark Sun : Wake of the ravager and think in someone capable of obliterating a drake in a single round... High level fighter should be something like Heracles.

 

[Cat Dude]

Dark Souls is more challenging than any old ass 32-bit rpg suggested by Lilura.

 

[Ol' Willy]

Since you talked about capitalism, "balance" is like the government trying to bring "equality" and the result is always worse. Cuba before the revolution had more Europeans living in Cuba than Cubans living on Europe. Argentina before Peron, was richer in GDP per capita than Canada. Equality just like balance can only exists by leveling everything into the lowest common denominator.

No, mate, Underrail is like monarchy. Styg is the absolute monarch and his word is the law. If Emperor says "Nerf" - we, masses, had to obey. The goal is not the balance. Goal is to provide challenging and interesting encounters. Underrail is still quite unbalanced, with PSI being the ultimate OP.

"Balanced", in Sawyer definition, games provide for every possible build to be equally effective, and forgive a lot of mistakes on player's part. Underrail is nothing like that. You need to understand game mechanics to be effective, or you will suffer. Its still very easy to die in couple of turns if you are not careful, even with optimal builds and high level. I dropped my first build due to it being utter shit.

Anyway, did you play Underrail? Try it and you will see the light.

Glad to see that you use my nomination system of Bethesda abortions. The Church of the True Fallout will prevail!

 

[Cryomancer]

No, mate, Underrail is like monarchy. Styg is the absolute monarch and his word is the law. If Emperor says "Nerf" - we, masses, had to obey. The goal is not the balance. Goal is to provide challenging and interesting encounters. Underrail is still quite unbalanced, with PSI being the ultimate OP.

"Balanced", in Sawyer definition, games provide for every possible build to be equally effective, and forgive a lot of mistakes on player's part. Underrail is nothing like that. You need to understand game mechanics to be effective, or you will suffer. Its still very easy to die in couple of turns if you are not careful, even with optimal builds and high level. I dropped my first build due to it being utter shit.

My point is simple.

1 - I enjoy cool stuff

2 - I enjoy limitations on cool stuff which makes sense and hate nonsensical stuff. Moonray on M&M 6 only being castable outside during night is OK. .50 BMG high explosive ammo being rare and expensive in a post apocalyptic world too. However, cooldowns on it would't make any sense.

I din't purchased underrail exactly due CDs on grenades...

 

[barghwata]

Psi exists on Underrail world. Now, If I throw a molotov, WHY i need to wait X turns to throw it again?

"MUH REALISM"!!!!!

Games don't have to be reality simulators... nor do they have to be ultra balanced and fair, realism fags are almost just as cringey as balance fags in my book, because forcing realism can be just as harmful to mechanics as forcing balance. The way i see it, when a developer is implementing a mechanic the only thing they should consider is 'how will this mechanic effect gameplay and will it be fun for the player" instead of "is this mechanic realistic?" or "how can i make it balanced?".

 

[Ol' Willy]

I din't purchased underrail exactly due CDs on grenades...

It's a shame, man. You should reconsider. I don't like cooldowns myself, but Underrail is good because/despite of them.

I like realism myself, but I learned how to suppress realismfag in me. You know, I could destroy FNV from the realism standpoint without much problem, but should I do that? Yes! Like, weapon damage is tied to condition - what kind of bullshit is that? Guns don't work that way. Brand new and almost junk M1 Garand don't differ that much in projectile velocity/penetration, there is no 100%-50% seesaw that FNV has. And guns don't degrade this quickly. I wont even say that taking several junk guns and combining them into one with combined condition of these several junk guns is just complete and utter nonsense. FNV doesn't even have the concept of the "magazine" - ammo is just counted per single round, allowing you to reload 1-3 rounds without having a bunch of not full magazines. Extended mag mod is the biggest offender - magazines just don't work this way. And why you can't remove weapons mods? Why I can't remove silencer or scope? Is it wielded in place? And you can't remove the extended mag mod! Like, imagine reloading AK-74 with 75 round long magazine from RPK-74, and from this point on you can't use standard 30 round mags anymore! You can install lightweight bolt on Assault Carbine (M4) to increase the fire rate - and this is wrong. AR-15 platform has rotating bolt locking system and reducing the weight of the bolt doesn't affect the rate of fire! And .....................

 

[jackofshadows]

If I throw a molotov, WHY i need to wait X turns to throw it again?

Dude, you're fixated on this beyond motherfucking reason. It's called conditionality, alrite? Just get over it, buy the game already and play it. Don't use grenades ffs if you're so obsessed with it. Alternatives would be either make them scarce/ultra-expensive (which basically impossible in such a massive game's open world as was stated above) or make them next to worthless (fun, right?).

Cooldown systems might be boring if combat is sloggish, it really might turn gameplay into MMO-like experience (without actual MMO benefits like tons of people/friends around) which is obviously bad, I agree. But Underrail's combat is quick, deadly and precise. Which makes it actually much more realistic/immersive than in a lot of other RPGs.

 

[Cryomancer]

Yep. You both guys are right. I saw so many games being ruined by this boring mecahanic. Diablo 1/2 to Diablo 3(i know that d2 has but are short in few HW intensive skills), the entire mmo genre(no longer we have games like dark sun online : Crimson sands, only wow clone), and even D&D 4e which had cooldowns in some "at will abilities", ArcaniA...

But Underrail deserves a chance. Only cuz has this BS, doesn't means that the game is 100% it.

Anyway, I an not one of the most demanding guys here on Codex. There are people who hate new vegas for not being good as FL 1/2. New Vegas is a good game. Not being a masterpiece like FL1/2, BG 1/2, Planescape Torment and other games doesn't means that the game is bad. Same with Gothic 3. A lot of people hate it but i liked it despite some flaws. I will add underrail to my list, but hopefully, I will have less free time in future and wanna finish Gothic 2 - Returning 2.0 as a water magician.

----------------

Here is a controversial and truthfully opinion.

Water element is underrepresented on games. Eg? On BG 1/2, you can sumon fire, air and earth elementals, but no t water. The portal quests on underdark lacks a water elemental portal. You also can summon Efreets and Djins, but not Marids. On Gothic? Takes far longer to be a water mage than a fire mage or a swamp camp novice. And on G2, despite water mages being ultra important in a expedition, you can't become one. Neverwinter nights? Only "red" dragon disciple. BG(2):EE? Dragon disciple also can only be red. Pathfinder Wrath of the Righteous? Only golden dragon mythic path. Arcane archer on nwn1? Can only imbue fire and the list goes on.

And water magic can be pretty dope. A 20 second video of water magic for Returning 2.0(a 250 hour long overall mod for g2)

 

[Metronome]

Psi exists on Underrail world. Now, If I throw a molotov, WHY i need to wait X turns to throw it again?

Why doesn't everyone in real life just throw molotovs constantly in war? Why does Underrail reward this strategy more than reality does?