Crispy™ Controversial opinions about RPGs that you know deep down are true.

[xuerebx]

Curious as to why you mentioned "cool downs" Draq? It's something I see mentioned regularly here, but I never dwelled too much on it. What makes it bad?

 

[Skdursh]

Sword Coast Legends was actually pretty good.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Mass Effect is one of the greatest RPGs ever made.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Sword Coast Legends was actually pretty good.

I beat this but don't remember anything about it. I don't think I disliked it, but it must have been really mediocre.

 

[Skdursh]

Sword Coast Legends was actually pretty good.

I beat this but don't remember anything about it. I don't think I disliked it, but it must have been really mediocre.

It wasn't anything ground breaking, but the immense copy-paste spergery revolving it after release was mostly purely retarded. Yeah, the "dungeon master" mode was a complete bust, but the game itself was fun. Nobody gave it a chance because they were too busy nerd-raging over the DM mode. The reception to the game literally killed the development company that made it.

 

[Joseph Stalin]

The Enhanced Editions being shat on for being a buggy mess upon release is pure hypocrisy. Basically any RPG upon release is in the same - or even worse - state (every single Fallout game; every single Elder Scrolls game; Temple of Elemental Evil; Arcanum; Deus Ex; Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines; Pillars of Eternity; Pathfinder: Kingmaker; Knights of the Old Republic II... and so on). Some of those mentioned have game-breaking bugs to this very day.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

The Enhanced Editions being shat on for being a buggy mess upon release is pure hypocrisy. Basically any RPG upon release is in the same - or even worse - state (every single Fallout game; every single Elder Scrolls game; Temple of Elemental Evil; Arcanum; Deus Ex; Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines; Pillars of Eternity; Pathfinder: Kingmaker... and so on).

maybe if you released a buggy mess you shouldn't also release an "enhanced edition" that is also a buggy mess

 

[Joseph Stalin]

The Enhanced Editions being shat on for being a buggy mess upon release is pure hypocrisy. Basically any RPG upon release is in the same - or even worse - state (every single Fallout game; every single Elder Scrolls game; Temple of Elemental Evil; Arcanum; Deus Ex; Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines; Pillars of Eternity; Pathfinder: Kingmaker... and so on).

maybe if you released a buggy mess you shouldn't also release an "enhanced edition" that is also a buggy mess

Tell that to Larian Studios (Divinity: Original Sin II - Enhanced Edition). Or Owlcat Games (Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Edition). Or Konami (Silent Hill HD Collection).

 

[rusty_shackleford]

The Enhanced Editions being shat on for being a buggy mess upon release is pure hypocrisy. Basically any RPG upon release is in the same - or even worse - state (every single Fallout game; every single Elder Scrolls game; Temple of Elemental Evil; Arcanum; Deus Ex; Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines; Pillars of Eternity; Pathfinder: Kingmaker... and so on).

maybe if you released a buggy mess you shouldn't also release an "enhanced edition" that is also a buggy mess

Tell that to Larian Studios (Divinity: Original Sin II - Enhanced Edition). Or Owlcat Games (Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Edition). Or Konami (Silent Hill HD Collection).

DOS2EE was pretty bug free
so was the original release

 

[Joseph Stalin]

The Enhanced Editions being shat on for being a buggy mess upon release is pure hypocrisy. Basically any RPG upon release is in the same - or even worse - state (every single Fallout game; every single Elder Scrolls game; Temple of Elemental Evil; Arcanum; Deus Ex; Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines; Pillars of Eternity; Pathfinder: Kingmaker... and so on).

maybe if you released a buggy mess you shouldn't also release an "enhanced edition" that is also a buggy mess

Tell that to Larian Studios (Divinity: Original Sin II - Enhanced Edition). Or Owlcat Games (Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Edition). Or Konami (Silent Hill HD Collection).

DOS2EE was pretty bug free
so was the original release

...they're still patching the bugs. Years later. Look at the update history. They're in the thousands, as far as bug fixes go, when you put them all together.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

The Enhanced Editions being shat on for being a buggy mess upon release is pure hypocrisy. Basically any RPG upon release is in the same - or even worse - state (every single Fallout game; every single Elder Scrolls game; Temple of Elemental Evil; Arcanum; Deus Ex; Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines; Pillars of Eternity; Pathfinder: Kingmaker... and so on).

maybe if you released a buggy mess you shouldn't also release an "enhanced edition" that is also a buggy mess

Tell that to Larian Studios (Divinity: Original Sin II - Enhanced Edition). Or Owlcat Games (Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Edition). Or Konami (Silent Hill HD Collection).

DOS2EE was pretty bug free
so was the original release

...they're still patching the bugs. Years later. Look at the update history. They're in the thousands, as far as bug fixes go, when you put them all together.

All software has bugs you dip.

 

[Joseph Stalin]

The Enhanced Editions being shat on for being a buggy mess upon release is pure hypocrisy. Basically any RPG upon release is in the same - or even worse - state (every single Fallout game; every single Elder Scrolls game; Temple of Elemental Evil; Arcanum; Deus Ex; Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines; Pillars of Eternity; Pathfinder: Kingmaker... and so on).

maybe if you released a buggy mess you shouldn't also release an "enhanced edition" that is also a buggy mess

Tell that to Larian Studios (Divinity: Original Sin II - Enhanced Edition). Or Owlcat Games (Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Edition). Or Konami (Silent Hill HD Collection).

DOS2EE was pretty bug free
so was the original release

...they're still patching the bugs. Years later. Look at the update history. They're in the thousands, as far as bug fixes go, when you put them all together.

All software has bugs you dip.

Not in the hundreds upon releasing the Enhanced Edition. Just admit you've made a bad argument. I gave you three different titles, all with much larger budgets, that are guilty of the same thing, and haven't received even a fraction of the shit the EE did.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

The Enhanced Editions being shat on for being a buggy mess upon release is pure hypocrisy. Basically any RPG upon release is in the same - or even worse - state (every single Fallout game; every single Elder Scrolls game; Temple of Elemental Evil; Arcanum; Deus Ex; Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines; Pillars of Eternity; Pathfinder: Kingmaker... and so on).

maybe if you released a buggy mess you shouldn't also release an "enhanced edition" that is also a buggy mess

Tell that to Larian Studios (Divinity: Original Sin II - Enhanced Edition). Or Owlcat Games (Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Edition). Or Konami (Silent Hill HD Collection).

DOS2EE was pretty bug free
so was the original release

...they're still patching the bugs. Years later. Look at the update history. They're in the thousands, as far as bug fixes go, when you put them all together.

All software has bugs you dip.

Not in the hundreds upon releasing the Enhanced Edition. Just admit you've made a bad argument. I gave you three different titles, all with much larger budgets, that are guilty of the same thing, and haven't received even a fraction of the shit the EE did.

why are you so upset that DOS2 is the better game

 

[Joseph Stalin]

The Enhanced Editions being shat on for being a buggy mess upon release is pure hypocrisy. Basically any RPG upon release is in the same - or even worse - state (every single Fallout game; every single Elder Scrolls game; Temple of Elemental Evil; Arcanum; Deus Ex; Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines; Pillars of Eternity; Pathfinder: Kingmaker... and so on).

maybe if you released a buggy mess you shouldn't also release an "enhanced edition" that is also a buggy mess

Tell that to Larian Studios (Divinity: Original Sin II - Enhanced Edition). Or Owlcat Games (Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Edition). Or Konami (Silent Hill HD Collection).

DOS2EE was pretty bug free
so was the original release

...they're still patching the bugs. Years later. Look at the update history. They're in the thousands, as far as bug fixes go, when you put them all together.

All software has bugs you dip.

Not in the hundreds upon releasing the Enhanced Edition. Just admit you've made a bad argument. I gave you three different titles, all with much larger budgets, that are guilty of the same thing, and haven't received even a fraction of the shit the EE did.

why are you so upset that DOS2 is the better game

And now you're changing the subject.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

The Enhanced Editions being shat on for being a buggy mess upon release is pure hypocrisy. Basically any RPG upon release is in the same - or even worse - state (every single Fallout game; every single Elder Scrolls game; Temple of Elemental Evil; Arcanum; Deus Ex; Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines; Pillars of Eternity; Pathfinder: Kingmaker... and so on).

maybe if you released a buggy mess you shouldn't also release an "enhanced edition" that is also a buggy mess

Tell that to Larian Studios (Divinity: Original Sin II - Enhanced Edition). Or Owlcat Games (Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Edition). Or Konami (Silent Hill HD Collection).

DOS2EE was pretty bug free
so was the original release

...they're still patching the bugs. Years later. Look at the update history. They're in the thousands, as far as bug fixes go, when you put them all together.

All software has bugs you dip.

Not in the hundreds upon releasing the Enhanced Edition. Just admit you've made a bad argument. I gave you three different titles, all with much larger budgets, that are guilty of the same thing, and haven't received even a fraction of the shit the EE did.

why are you so upset that DOS2 is the better game

And now you're changing the subject.

the subject has always been about DOS2's superiority

 

[Joseph Stalin]

The Enhanced Editions being shat on for being a buggy mess upon release is pure hypocrisy. Basically any RPG upon release is in the same - or even worse - state (every single Fallout game; every single Elder Scrolls game; Temple of Elemental Evil; Arcanum; Deus Ex; Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines; Pillars of Eternity; Pathfinder: Kingmaker... and so on).

maybe if you released a buggy mess you shouldn't also release an "enhanced edition" that is also a buggy mess

Tell that to Larian Studios (Divinity: Original Sin II - Enhanced Edition). Or Owlcat Games (Pathfinder: Kingmaker - Enhanced Edition). Or Konami (Silent Hill HD Collection).

DOS2EE was pretty bug free
so was the original release

...they're still patching the bugs. Years later. Look at the update history. They're in the thousands, as far as bug fixes go, when you put them all together.

All software has bugs you dip.

Not in the hundreds upon releasing the Enhanced Edition. Just admit you've made a bad argument. I gave you three different titles, all with much larger budgets, that are guilty of the same thing, and haven't received even a fraction of the shit the EE did.

why are you so upset that DOS2 is the better game

And now you're changing the subject.

the subject has always been about DOS2's superiority

Stalin has won yet again. Thank you. You were, as always, an unworthy opponent.

 

[DraQ]

Curious as to why you mentioned "cool downs" Draq? It's something I see mentioned regularly here, but I never dwelled too much on it. What makes it bad?

Everything.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

Curious as to why you mentioned "cool downs" Draq? It's something I see mentioned regularly here, but I never dwelled too much on it. What makes it bad?

Everything.

Vancian magic is just a cooldown system.

 

[DraQ]

Curious as to why you mentioned "cool downs" Draq? It's something I see mentioned regularly here, but I never dwelled too much on it. What makes it bad?

Everything.

Vancian magic is just a cooldown system.

That's why it has always sucked balls.

 

[xuerebx]

I can't remember an RPG I played which featured cooldowns, not in the last year anyway, which is why I asked.

I remember disliking limited spell slots and resting to recover said slots in D&D rules-based games as it made spellcasters feel too weak and constrained, forcing you to rest frequently to recover. My opinion changed after KOTC1, but only because of the well thought out way the game was designed. Can't think of many games like that.

 

[DraQ]

xuerebx

I think some of the posters don't quite get it.

First, reloading a weapon isn't quite cooldown - it can be initiated at will, which is often important with multi-shot weapons and it doesn't go in the background (as some hove observed), maybe outside of some ancient games where you had single reloadable weapon in whole arsenal and it was mostly a gimmick (see automag in Unreal) and outside of HL2 which is hardly stellar in terms of its firearm mechanics. Even in those games this wasn't terribly exploitable, as switching weapons took time and there was little no point to switch weapons from what was currently preferable due to mechanical or ammo considerations.

Second, the problem isn't using something like cooldowns where it evidently makes sense, it's slapping the timer on everything and calling it a day. If you have something that should logically work like cooldown, then, by all means make it work like one. If it shouldn't logically work like a cooldown, then fucking don't make it do that.

Third, if you need some time management mechanics, then it's usually far better to put this delay *before* using the ability, not after. Most stuff person can do takes time, casting magic is usually portrayed as using complex rituals that take time and so on. It makes little sense to just fire off your spell, then sit on your ass twiddling your thumbs because the timer says so. It makes a lot of sense to actually spend time *casting* this spell, then be able to start cast it again immediately after as long as your resources allow, because why the fuck not?
Additionally, introducing pre-ability delay allows you to make it far more of a factor than some cooldown that may well go into effect after your enemy is dead. For starters, the enemy may attack you interrupting whatever you do, or at least causing shitload of damage. For this reason some abilities, even weakish and inefficient may be preferable in some situations, if only because they cast fast and will actually have chance to go off without being disrupted. Additionally, other abilities, not necessarily useful in their own right may come into play to buy caster some time before he can launch his nuke. And there might also be abilities to counter those.

Fourth, cooldown mechanics, right from its start in hazy early nineties (LoL1, etc.) has been resembling QTE. There is no denying that and it makes for some mightily shitty combat. If all abilities are on separate cooldowns then it makes sense to just spam whatever is available ATM. If LoL1 didn't have it's particular kind of charm, not without help of musics and pretty pixel art, then it would be a horrible piece of turd, far worse than fucking oblivious.

Fifth, cooldowns are probably the worst way to introduce any additional complexity to your combat skill use. Not only do they work poorly in this regard, but they tend to not make sense and supplant far better alternatives.

For instance Call of the Ancients literally calls down the four barbarian ancients to fight alongside you. How would that work if it was spammable?​

​

That's actually a no brainer.

You logically can't call multiple copies of ancients at once, so spamming would only accomplish unsummoning and resummoning, terminating any actions of those summons and resetting their position - why would *anyone* spam that?

 

[xuerebx]

Cheers for the explanation in the post, and a link to that old thread. Got some bedtime reading to do. :D

 

[Skdursh]

I can't remember an RPG I played which featured cooldowns, not in the last year anyway, which is why I asked.

I remember disliking limited spell slots and resting to recover said slots in D&D rules-based games as it made spellcasters feel too weak and constrained, forcing you to rest frequently to recover. My opinion changed after KOTC1, but only because of the well thought out way the game was designed. Can't think of many games like that.

Aren't technically all RTwP RPGs built around cooldowns; just usually behind the scenes so you don't see it.

 

[DeepOcean]

I hate cooldowns because it just incentivizes you to start every single fight with your strongest spells on every fight as there is no need for conservation. Cooldowns alone dont limit the player enough, some kind of resource management in form of finite components or rests is necessary. Unfortunately, most developers go for cooldowns or for unlimited rests because balancing limited resources require extra work, while slapping cooldowns is easier.

 

[DeepOcean]

I am talking about impact, not about quality

I believe this won't happen until we nail Tolkien's coffin shut for good.

That already happened my friend, fantasy literature, well, actually, literature, in general, is dead. If you dont like Tolkien, I dont advise you to read modern fantasy authors to avoid depression. Normies are too occupied with NetFlix garbage to read.