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Codexers cannot into PoE ruleset, part N

Shadenuat

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Because it is not implemented into a flow of combat in a right way (which works around action speed and recovery).

That is a rather broad and unspecific thing to say.
Well given the topic was already discussed to death I am just not interested in beating it again. If you want more you can read Sensuki's criticism thread.

The combat works around planning for actions between recovery times and creating strings of them (actions) in pseudo real time. AOO in PoE is a Free Action that is instant, can happen without your control, in a real-time, on the unscaled (without tiles or hexes) battlefield.
Naturally without turns and control, it leads to all sorts of pathfinding issues, AI exploits and such, and makes players prefer stand-and-shoot, not proactive, not tactical or dynamic way of fighting.
Just watch people play ToEE, it has special colored circles and zones of control, and it's turn-based, yet players and AI still can get in trouble when engaging with AOO system.
 

Tigranes

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Sorry, no time to fully address various posts, but;

-POE numbers do let you plan ahead, e.g. you know the exact thresholds where you can say "with these buffs my character can only get a graze, max, from the opponent's reflex attack, and also hugely increases chances of missing" - which isn't the same as "I just cast Shield I am invulnerable to Magic Missile", but certainly allows its own delight of planning and theorycrafting. (I too would like some hard counters in POE, but that's not the point here - we're talking about another black & white claim that apparently magic is swingy and random.)

-People whined like fuck about how Engagement means you can never move your dudes and your dudes will just die if you ever move them. This is obviously and transparently bullshit. And no, I don't tank & spank. I rarely use fighters, I have played all squishies parties, solo runs, parties with no clearly designated guy for attracting engagements or even standing still. It just introduces a tradeoff - do I move or do I stay - and also introduces its own form of planning (how to set up the space and what kind of costs of movement to avoid for myself or to incur on the enemy). Again, it's far from perfect; e.g. it's too easy to trigger engagement when you just want to move to another side of the enemy. But my task is easy, because there are idiots making transparently shitty claims like OMG IT SUCKS U CAN NEVER MOVE.
 
Unwanted

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It's a bitter kickstarter reality and, of course, it's not really an excuse - for all their gamer friendliness and publisher hating, kickstars spew too much bullshit and rely too much on the samey deceptive tactics as their mortal money-grubbing CEO enemies.

Games like Don't Starve and FTL make me believe that some companies do it right. It isn't fair to bash companies like Subset and Klei for the mistakes or lies of others.
 

Shadenuat

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POE numbers do let you plan ahead, e.g. you know the exact thresholds where you can say "with these buffs my character can only get a graze, max, from the opponent's reflex attack, and also hugely increases chances of missing"
Ahaha. Indeed? You think majority of players understand d100 resolution system and intuitively can predict grazes, misses and rely on their knowledge? The most people probably do is try and stack as many things together they can, ignoring or missing on extra stuff like Supress mechanic, which is indeed far from "I Cast Shield to protect from MM".

But my task is easy, because there are idiots making transparently shitty claims like OMG IT SUCKS U CAN NEVER MOVE.
You can move, just that game does not encourage you to move. One of it's main combat mechanics stops you in place and asks a cost for movement, while many abilities that would require movement and positioning in IE games (like Sneak Attack, or cleric moving from group member to group member to cast heals and buffs) can be done at range.
 

Gord

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It's a bitter kickstarter reality and, of course, it's not really an excuse - for all their gamer friendliness and publisher hating, kickstars spew too much bullshit and rely too much on the samey deceptive tactics as their mortal money-grubbing CEO enemies.

Games like Don't Starve and FTL make me believe that some companies do it right. It isn't fair to bash companies like Subset and Klei for the mistakes or lies of others.

That are relatively focused games from small companies. I think that's one key to those Kickstarters - keep it reasonably small so you can live with the limited budget.

Maybe Kickstarter isn't all that great for hyped big projects like PoE and W2 - even D:OS did fail on several promises and they had a lot more additional funding independently of the Kickstarter.
It will be interesting to see what HBS does with their Honk Kong project, since they are the first (I think) of the larger studios (well, they are more of a mid-sized one) to do a second Kickstarter - and that already turned out far more humble.
 

Tigranes

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Shadenuat

1) A complex system that casual players will just make do with, while veteran players can theorycraft? Fine with me. Not to mention you could just as easily argue that casual players couldn't keep track of IE rules - which buffs are affected by Dispel Magic, and which aren't? How am I supposed to keep track of how many spells have been stopped by Spell Shield? I already cast Breach on this guy, why aren't all of his buffs gone...

2) Yes, it asks for a cost for movement. Nothing inherently terrible about making movement have a cost. Meanwhile, there are plenty of incentives to move - AOEs, flanking (something not broadly present in IE games), etc. Cipher beam spells, Fan of Flames, Touch abilities like Jolting touch...
 

Shadenuat

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Not to mention you could just as easily argue that casual players couldn't keep track of IE rules
Please let's not play the "IE didn't do it well so PoE has no obligation to either".

Meanwhile, there are plenty of incentives to move - AOEs, flanking (something not broadly present in IE games), etc. Cipher beam spells, Fan of Flames, Touch abilities like Jolting touch...
It's not just teh doom of AOO's, but don't you realise that&why kill-your-party Cipher's level 1 beam spell as well as various position switching beam spells and others are only used for exotic purposes while players just stick to 1st level charm & 2st level paralyzing disco lights?
 

Tigranes

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Shadenuat Come now, after saying it so many times, you should know my point. I'm not here to argue POE is perfect, or that it shouldn't improve on IE. It's no secret that I enjoy POE, but I have my own list of disappointments. My point is that there is so much "OMG X SUCKS SO FUCKING BAD IE WAS WAY BETTER" nonsense that simply doesn't stand up to the most basic of scrutiny. The prime exhibit being all the whining about 'not being able to move'.

If we want to move on from that (which, to be honest, should be a super basic point), then we can get into what really are the problems and what should have been done better. For example, I think one huge irony is that I don't have any philosophical or stalkerish opposition to Balance, but POE's problem on release was that it was actually poorly balanced. The OP nature of mental binding, for instance, and the continuing OPness of hard disablers (which is partially due to complete lack of hard immunities), encourages a static and monotonous gameplay way more than the engagement system. I would expect to see in xpacks/sequels more diverse enemy types packed with a better selection of abilities / potions / etc., ideally the introduction of some harder counters (or at least more polarised defence values for monsters), and rebalancing of attributes and abilities.
 

Shadenuat

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Shadenuat Come now, after saying it so many times, you should know my point.
The point I don't get is why a system that produced that sort of gameplay, that requires more balancing, more diversity in enemies ("But 3 simple but different enemies can make good encounter!"), another systems on top of it, rebalancing of it's stat and ability system, for some people "still good at it's core".
It's like "d100 is good at it's core". Or "6 stats and 12 levels is good for what it is".

The only system I can name that can be just balanced with math is the DR system - by removing enemies with like 50 piercing resistance but ONLY SMALLISH MINISCULE YOU CAN WIN NOW TOTALY RIGHT 30 crushing, or 100-250 damage elemental attacks, since, while Sawyer hates % based armor systems, flat number systems do shit against bloated numbers.
 

Lhynn

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Shadenuat Come now, after saying it so many times, you should know my point. I'm not here to argue POE is perfect, or that it shouldn't improve on IE. It's no secret that I enjoy POE, but I have my own list of disappointments. My point is that there is so much "OMG X SUCKS SO FUCKING BAD IE WAS WAY BETTER" nonsense that simply doesn't stand up to the most basic of scrutiny. The prime exhibit being all the whining about 'not being able to move'.

If we want to move on from that (which, to be honest, should be a super basic point), then we can get into what really are the problems and what should have been done better. For example, I think one huge irony is that I don't have any philosophical or stalkerish opposition to Balance, but POE's problem on release was that it was actually poorly balanced. The OP nature of mental binding, for instance, and the continuing OPness of hard disablers (which is partially due to complete lack of hard immunities), encourages a static and monotonous gameplay way more than the engagement system. I would expect to see in xpacks/sequels more diverse enemy types packed with a better selection of abilities / potions / etc., ideally the introduction of some harder counters (or at least more polarised defence values for monsters), and rebalancing of attributes and abilities.

Blah blah blah, system is borked, engagement mechanics, accuracy mechanics, lack of immunities, etc. At least IE system didnt naturally lend itself to banal gameplay like the poes one does, that alone makes it better.
 

Tigranes

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Shadenuat Come now, after saying it so many times, you should know my point.
The point I don't get is why a system that produced that sort of gameplay, that requires more balancing, more diversity in enemies ("But 3 simple but different enemies can make good encounter!"), another systems on top of it, rebalancing of it's stat and ability system, for some people "still good at it's core".
It's like "d100 is good at it's core". Or "6 stats and 12 levels is good for what it is".

The only system I can name that can be just balanced with math is the DR system - by removing enemies with like 50 piercing resistance but ONLY SMALLISH MINISCULE YOU CAN WIN NOW TOTALY RIGHT 30 crushing, or 100-250 damage elemental attacks, since, while Sawyer hates % based armor systems, flat number systems do shit against bloated numbers.

Any system requires good encounter & enemy design to shine, otherwise its complexities get lost because it becomes too easy to bulldoze past. The problem there is not the system, but the encounter design. This is symptomatic: I'm totally fine with the endurance system, or the graze/hit system, and have yet to hear much on the Codex that actually shows why those systems are fundamentally broken.

I suspect POE2 will be bigger, better, and generally much stronger than POE1, and that the franchise as a whole will be a welcome addition to my CRPG library. I expect POE1+Xpacks or POE2 to beat BG1, but not BG2, which I believe will never be beaten, not as long as CRPGs are what they are. If that makes POE KS a sham for some people, fair enough. I wouldn't try to tell them BG2 wasn't so great.
 

Lhynn

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The problem with the graze/hit/crit system is that it makes a single stat the be all end all of your character offensive capabilities, i have seen characters in robes with good deflection outlast heavily armored characters with shitty deflection, armor doesnt mean a thing if you get crit again and again on every attack, because DR was designed to withstand common strikes. This is kind of a big deal because it creates such a huge disparity between classes with high deflection and classes with low deflection that you may as well not even bother with armor, of any quality.

On to hp and endurance, endurance pools are by necessity small, this is because dropping in any given fight is not penalized by outright killing you and because you regenerate all endurance lost at the end of any encounter. then the characters staying power in battle can be smaller. This can be seen as much in poe as it can be seen in any shooter with regenerating health. This is not conductive to good gameplay. Low endurance values also ties to the accuracy mechanics, it used to be that your squishy had time to react if he got swarmed here he cant, he will go take a nap. Plus it also makes most mistakes consequence free, which doesnt exactly make battles tense in any way, shape or form.

Engagement system makes combat static, movement is never a tactical decision in this game, just the result of a fuck up, you failed at positioning at the start. Frontloads decision making in every fight and even goes as far as to provoke reloads if you detect a mistake in your positioning and know youll get breached, ive gone as far as to reload 10 seconds into the fight, only because id be wasting time if i kept going, as the battle with one less dps will take longer, not because i gave a shit if anyone fell.

Lack of hard counters, this not only creates some pretty fucking stupid scenarios, like ghosts slipping or getting stunned. It also makes every tactic viable against everything, which in turns gives you repetitive gameplay, because why fucking change what already works? it goes beyond tank and spank and can be applied to most tactics that work. Say what you will about them, at least they forced you to change your approach, and in some cases even get creative with your resources.
 

Hegel

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but not BG2, which I believe will never be beaten, not as long as CRPGs are what they are. If that makes POE KS a sham for some people, fair enough. I wouldn't try to tell them BG2 wasn't so great.

It's not like BG2 is the perfect masterpiece. You want a better BG2? Copy everything but the story and import the best mods, or go turn based and draw inspiration from a modded ToEE. That's it.
The game bombed intentionally. All they were required to do was a graphic upgrade, better plot, better writing.

By the way, Baldur's gate III was poised to be a better game than its predecessors. Google it, Baldur's gate III: the black hound.
 

Sensuki

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Codex 2014 Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong A Beautifully Desolate Campaign
2) Yes, it asks for a cost for movement. Nothing inherently terrible about making movement have a cost. Meanwhile, there are plenty of incentives to move - AOEs, flanking (something not broadly present in IE games), etc. Cipher beam spells, Fan of Flames, Touch abilities like Jolting touch...

You only move when you have to in this game. The penalty for moving 'rewards' planning and penalizes tactics.

Shit design by people who only play turn-based games.
 

Shevek

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I move multiple times in most encounters to set up flanking. I dont have but its a risk/reward decision I make.
 

Sensuki

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Codex 2014 Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong A Beautifully Desolate Campaign
I believe that planning and tactics should be at least equal. I am more of a tactical player myself and it's kind of funny because the combat in this game was advertised as tactical combat and Sawyer kicks the word around so much you'd think he meant it.

Naturally if you are a person who thinks that strategy and planning is everything, then this is the game for you (up to the point where it really doesn't matter anymore).

No Engagement and Fixed Movement Recovery Rate mostly corrects this issue, but it's still a boring game to play for many other reasons.
 

hell bovine

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So what? You still have more options to build characters with the PoE system, despite its flaws.
Would you prefer it if every character needed to set their attributes to some middle numbers? 14-15-13-14-13-12?
There's nothing wrong with dumping a stat if you find it's not important to the role your character is supposed to have. At least PoE's system is resulting in slightly more noticeable effects than the IE (which didn't bother with it at all) if you do so.

I wouldn't mind if it was made more noticeable, though.
You have more options in playing around with the stats. But other than this? What are the differences when building a chanter? There aren't really that many phrases and invocations that are useful to make my created chanter distinguishable from Kana, and the only difference is, she can tank a bit better due to attribute distribution. :| And so far my character's background has gotten her one minor dialogue option, yay. What I would like to see is something like Arcanum, where there were not only interesting attributes and backgrounds that mattered. Not every single one, but still.

I move multiple times in most encounters to set up flanking. I dont have but its a risk/reward decision I make.
But for what? So far I've gotten through PotD by having two tanks (chanter and Eder) move forward, and everyone else plinking away with guns. occassionally the priest or the wizard sling some spells. But in the last fight -a dragon - the wimpy wizard decided he needs a break and did nothing (which is a common bug, apparently), and the battle was still won with only chanting & priest spells. For a first dragon encounter, when I compare it to meeting Firkraag, it was very dissapointing.
 
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Shevek

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Really? I thought Firkraag was pretty boring. Prebuffing everyone and laying a bunch of traps for a few minutes and then clicking attack watching the random luck show was interesting to see the first time I guess. After that "fun" you can just do the chromatic orb auto win thing.

By comparison, the encounter set up seemed far more interesting for the adra dragon (high priests and adragons, etc). Though I do think that adding something like wing buffet might be cool.

As to why do flanking. Its good. It helps me kill things faster and land def based debuffs etc. Its fun to set up and exploit. Again, if you find tank and spank shitty, dont build a tank and spank party.

Edit:
I just googled this. Pretty funny
https://youtu.be/oyYqzXaaBUg
 
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Gord

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The point I don't get is why a system that produced that sort of gameplay, that requires more balancing, more diversity in enemies ("But 3 simple but different enemies can make good encounter!"), another systems on top of it, rebalancing of it's stat and ability system, for some people "still good at it's core".

One thing first: Enemy diversity is totally fine in PoE, although some enemy abilities/spells should be reworked/expanded upon a bit.
Anyway, to answer you question: Because gameplay is fine and PoE was fun to play for the entire 50 or so hours it took me to play through, despite it's flaws.
Because those flaws, while present, for me just prevent it from being a truly great game, but don't make it a bad one.

The problem with the graze/hit/crit system is that it makes a single stat the be all end all of your character offensive capabilities, i have seen characters in robes with good deflection outlast heavily armored characters with shitty deflection, armor doesnt mean a thing if you get crit again and again on every attack, because DR was designed to withstand common strikes. This is kind of a big deal because it creates such a huge disparity between classes with high deflection and classes with low deflection that you may as well not even bother with armor, of any quality.

Well, not being hit is certainly preferable to being hit for less effect. In the end I think that it can create more varied and interesting gameplay than simply having one guy in a strong suit of armor soak everything up. If you encounter a situation where your heavy armor guy gets critted too often, you should maybe start considering some tactic to prevent it. It's not as if the game doesn't give you any tools to deal with it.
I have to admit though, that the importance of deflection is currently a bit too high.

On to hp and endurance, endurance pools are by necessity small, this is because dropping in any given fight is not penalized by outright killing you and because you regenerate all endurance lost at the end of any encounter. then the characters staying power in battle can be smaller. This can be seen as much in poe as it can be seen in any shooter with regenerating health. This is not conductive to good gameplay. Low endurance values also ties to the accuracy mechanics, it used to be that your squishy had time to react if he got swarmed here he cant, he will go take a nap. Plus it also makes most mistakes consequence free, which doesnt exactly make battles tense in any way, shape or form.

Although being dropped in battle can well mean the difference between winning the battle and seeing the game-over screen, so there is an obvious penalty. Personally I would penalize it more, however, through e.g. giving a debuff until next rest when reaching either low health or even 0 endurance. Also health is too high for fighter classes.

And keeping your squishies save is something that can be done in PoE, if you just l2p - even after they get attacked. Not everytime maybe, but hey, no risk, no fun.

Engagement system makes combat static, movement is never a tactical decision in this game, just the result of a fuck up, you failed at positioning at the start. Frontloads decision making in every fight and even goes as far as to provoke reloads if you detect a mistake in your positioning and know youll get breached, ive gone as far as to reload 10 seconds into the fight, only because id be wasting time if i kept going, as the battle with one less dps will take longer, not because i gave a shit if anyone fell.
This is more of a choice you made for yourself than something dictated by the system.
It has been pointed out several times, but engagement does not mean that you can never ever move once the battle has started. You can - and in some situations you should. You just have to learn how to deal with it, something that isn't too difficult if you're actually willing to do so.

Lack of hard counters, this not only creates some pretty fucking stupid scenarios, like ghosts slipping or getting stunned. It also makes every tactic viable against everything, which in turns gives you repetitive gameplay, because why fucking change what already works? it goes beyond tank and spank and can be applied to most tactics that work. Say what you will about them, at least they forced you to change your approach, and in some cases even get creative with your resources.

I agree that the resistances/vulnerabilities of enemies are in many cases too low. It's certainly one of my personally biggest issues with the current state of the game. Certain enemies should be made if not immune then at least highly resistant to certain attacks. The system allows for this, it's just not used to a great extend.
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth

Sensuki

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Codex 2014 Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong A Beautifully Desolate Campaign
Really? I thought Firkraag was pretty boring. Prebuffing everyone and laying a bunch of traps for a few minutes and then clicking attack watching the random luck show was interesting to see the first time I guess. After that "fun" you can just do the chromatic orb auto win thing.

You don't need to do any of that. You can, but that's a boring way of playing the game.

For some reason you're able to 'make your own fun' in Pillars of Eternity, but not in the Infinity Engine games.

Another funny thing is, is that in the IE games the 'preparation' part of the game is somehow boring to you, but in Pillars of Eternity you love preparing for encounters and using that to win.
 

Roguey

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The IWDs already de-emphasized hard counters, and the end game was going to finish at level 5-8 so that was a given. :P
 

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