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Codexers cannot into PoE ruleset, part N

Perkel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 28, 2014
Messages
15,909
Infinitron misses completely point with PoE

Combat in PoE is worse because:

- It have like 2-3 memorable fights
- no hard counters/everything last 5 seconds design
- trash mobs everywhere
- lack of abilities to mod engagement after battle starts
- crappy defenses for mages.
- weapon specializations stink in current form
- unique items are bland
- main stat system is bland. Difference between low stat and superb stat is not that great.

We all compare it to BG2 because:

- there were ton of memorable fights
- even without engagement you could strategize battlefield (mages for example casting hold or using advanced shields)
- ton of awesome uniques that feel awesome

PoE has many awesome ideas like everyone could use any weapon armor, DR, miss/graze/hit/crit system and many other in combat design but few critical things simply are to hard to overlook and say with straight face "combat is awesome"

I hope PoE2 will solve above problems.
 
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Shevek

Arcane
Joined
Sep 20, 2003
Messages
1,570
- It have like 2-3 memorable fightsfightss
Partially due to the game awarding too much xp. Certain fights are far more memorable if you hit them 2 levels earlier.
- no hard counters/everything last 5 seconds design
I dont see the problem
- trash mobs everywhere
Just like the IE games
- lack of abilities to mod engagement after battle starts
Incorrect
- crappy defenses for mages.
Incorrect
- weapon specializations stink in current form
Disagree. Best spec system i have ever experienced
- unique items are bland
Partially due to presentation
- main stat system is bland. Difference between low stat and superb stat is not that great.
Incorrect, stat system far better than ie games where most stat choices did nothing or were invalidated by items
 

rado907

Savant
Joined
Apr 23, 2015
Messages
249
Complexity just for the sake of complexity is no fun. I don't want to manually click fifteen special abilities, ten combos, 5 per-encounter abilities, and whatever else just to clear some stupid trash mob that can't really harm me anyway.

Let me give you an example of unnecessary complexity - in PoE there are a million damage and armor types. I never paid any attention to them, including on hard mode. The ultimate decider of combat outcomes was, as the review on this website noted, the degree to which my party over-leveled the content. Beyond that, my DPSers did their damage through the enemy's armor anyway, and my tanks tanked no matter what damage was thrown at them. The damage types/armor system might as well not have been there.

Another thing is, a game can give me 500 skills, but I won't use them unless they are clearly powerful. I would just max out passives and sit back and watch. Why micromanage my goons through an encounter with trash goblins or whatever? That's no fun. I want my goons to finish the battle as quickly as possible, with as few pauses as possible, so that I can continue with my adventure.
So I'd rather have 3 abilities that I can actually use, than have 50 abilities that "give you 10% piercing dmg over the next 5 seconds on an 8 second cooldown."

Complex systems require encounters designed to highlight and exploit those systems. And complex systems are not necessarily interesting.
 

Perkel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 28, 2014
Messages
15,909
- It have like 2-3 memorable fightsfightss
Partially due to the game awarding too much xp. Certain fights are far more memorable if you hit them 2 levels earlier.
- no hard counters/everything last 5 seconds design
I dont see the problem
- trash mobs everywhere
Just like the IE games
- lack of abilities to mod engagement after battle starts
Incorrect
- crappy defenses for mages.
Incorrect
- weapon specializations stink in current form
Disagree. Best spec system i have ever experienced
- unique items are bland
Partially due to presentation
- main stat system is bland. Difference between low stat and superb stat is not that great.
Incorrect, stat system far better than ie games where most stat choices did nothing or were invalidated by items

1. Dude. EXP has nothing to do with it. Most of fights are literally trashmobs without any memorable leader or character or whatever. Raderic fight, end boss battle are only two ones that "felt good" and not because i was too low level or too high level but simply because they were not fucking FLANS or BEETLES or SKELETONS. Worst of all is that absolutely all mobs don't have any worthwhile abilities that can use. No one can maze you, no one can literally do anything to raise your brow with: "i didn't expect it".

edit: In BG1 if lvl1 mage cast blind on your fighter then you are fucked for next minute. In PoE you are like ...zzzz....

2. Yeah, except every spell is basically shit mmo spell that does shit for 5 seconds or 10. Only few spells are worth anything and most of the time difference between spell and nothing is literally almost nothing. You can't take out enemy spellcaster with hold spell. You can't blind enemy huge warrior with blind spell and so on and so forth.

3. At least in BG2/IW between trash mobs there were good boss fights. PoE formula comes to trash mob*10-15 * 4-6 fights on map. Still some trash mobs could be lethal as they would for example cast mentioned hold spell and those trashy archers then could easily stick their arrows in your mage before warriors will take them out. Here trash mobs are worst kind of trash mobs. MMO trashmobs. Select party click and forget.

4. You are a fag and you know it. There is no way +10 deflection for mage that has shit defense,shit armor either way will do fucking anything. They even patched it later (doubled it) because they saw how fucking shit it was. This goes for almost any defensive spell for mage. BECAUSE THERE ARE NO HARD SPELLS IN GAME AT ALL.
Why do i need frighten aura if it doesn't fucking stop people from hitting your mage ? -10 to attack ? pleaseeee...

5. Correct you mean. I give you 3 fighters without mage or any other support and tell me how you will be moving to enemy mage through trash mobs... You have 2 knockdowns (which can fail and are almost useless against high fortitude enemy) per character and you can get 1 more ability mid level + another one if your are high level.
In current form you need status effect which are not produced by fighting classes to move through battlefield.
THIS IS LACK OF FIGHTING ABILITIES TO DEAL WITH ENGAGEMENT YOLO.
Thieves... Oh snap i forgot ! ROGUES without mages are shit because they can't take hitting like warriors and they can't move on battlefield as they don't have many abilities early.

6. IT stinks because it funnels you into some idiotic archetype. Let's say i want to use longsword and sabre. I would need two specializations in game that gives you like 5-6 talents to do that between 12 levels along with other important stuff.
Again BG2 weapon specialization would be much better as it would free up important talents to something else and you could build a build from anything you want.

7. C-C-Combo ! fag+2 It has nothing to do with presentation. Unique items simply are most of the time inferior and don't have anything "unique" about them. There are only like few items that do something other than +1 constitution (+3% to life ! much wow !). Since game uses for unknown BALANCEDNOFUNALLOWED reason fast/medium/slow categorization you can't find sword that is as fast as rapier. Or Mace that is slow as two handed mace but teleports enemy on hit.

8. Or is it ? Pointing obvious shit called conversion of D&D stat system is not really good defense. 30% better at max at something is simply NOTHING WORTHWILE. Especially for stats like speed. At least D&D was PnP game to CRPG conversion and PnP setting all stats worked well (thanks to good GM) where in PoE case getting 18 in strengh vs 10 isn't that much difference. Only reason to get stats in PoE are dialogue checks (and rather rare). You can literally make all 13s character and he won't feel that much different to character with all 18s.

edit: as for conversion D&D system stats.. They were much more important than PoE ones. Max dexterity gave you more than max Speed in PoE. Max strenght gave you more than max might. Same with rest of stats.

Only really interesting things about PoE stats system is that most of stats do something for any class BUT again they are all shite so you can play mage with all 8 and he will be almost as good as other mage with all 18s.
 
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thesheeep

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Basically, Perkel is right.
Shevek is just another blind fanboy.

Don't get me wrong, I think PoE is a good game, but the abysmal encounter design (which is NOT debatable, and yes, way way worse than BG2) and the uninteresting, far too messy ruleset (almost everything just gives a totally neglectable bonus/malus instead of working with hard values and counters) that does not allow any actual tactics beside charm/stun + damage keep it from being great.

Let me give you an example of how it is done right, that is not Baldur's Gate, not even (directly) a PC game: Magic
(Almost?) everything in this game is absolute and has a significant impact on a match. Yet the rules are extremely clear and actually simple. The good gameplay comes from interesting abilities and the combination of those.
It is the opposite of the PoE system.

PoE has like three interesting fights. And one of those fights (adra dragon) is only interesting because it is ridiculously hard and can be won only by cheesing the hell out of the game. Like running around the thing, cartoon style.
And don't annoy me with "you need to be more low level", in BG2 all interesting encounters remained interesting no matter if you were a few levels above/below.
Interesting does not necessarily mean "hard".

Complexity just for the sake of complexity is no fun. I don't want to manually click fifteen special abilities, ten combos, 5 per-encounter abilities, and whatever else just to clear some stupid trash mob that can't really harm me anyway.

Let me give you an example of unnecessary complexity - in PoE there are a million damage and armor types. I never paid any attention to them, including on hard mode. The ultimate decider of combat outcomes was, as the review on this website noted, the degree to which my party over-leveled the content. Beyond that, my DPSers did their damage through the enemy's armor anyway, and my tanks tanked no matter what damage was thrown at them. The damage types/armor system might as well not have been there.

Another thing is, a game can give me 500 skills, but I won't use them unless they are clearly powerful. I would just max out passives and sit back and watch. Why micromanage my goons through an encounter with trash goblins or whatever? That's no fun. I want my goons to finish the battle as quickly as possible, with as few pauses as possible, so that I can continue with my adventure.
So I'd rather have 3 abilities that I can actually use, than have 50 abilities that "give you 10% piercing dmg over the next 5 seconds on an 8 second cooldown."

Complex systems require encounters designed to highlight and exploit those systems. And complex systems are not necessarily interesting.
Absolutely right.

PoE ruleset has breadth, but mostly fake depth.
 
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Shevek

Arcane
Joined
Sep 20, 2003
Messages
1,570
BG2 was more susceptible to having encounters become more of a cake walk due to over gearing but over leveling was certainly an issue as well. Though if you think BG2 encounters are challenging, well, lol, maybe if you hamstring yourself or something.
 

Perkel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 28, 2014
Messages
15,909
I don't think DR is a problem.

Problem is that there are ton of systems but they are all shallow.
What is the point of using mace if your sword will go through high armor either way ?
In BG1 if you don't have blunt weapon you can forget about attacking golems.

As poster above me said. PoE is a good game but it's combat system simply doesn't feel good enough to comeback to game another time and re-roll character.

Because no matter what you do you are +10%/-10% worse/better than before in everything.


Currently i am replaying fucking Dragon Age Origins of all things + specialization mod (main reason why) and it's combat system is several times better than PoE.

I can cast freeze on enemies to hold them, i can stun them to stop them from doing something. I can choose passives that are something else than +1.1 to weapon damage.

And this comes from dude who didn't like Dragon Age Origins.


BG2 was more susceptible to having encounters become more of a cake walk due to over gearing but over leveling was certainly an issue as well. Though if you think BG2 encounters are challenging, well, lol, maybe if you hamstring yourself or something.

Yes but even if you were overleveled and overgeared you could still get rekt by one good hold spell and you would franticy pray so that your warrior by the end of that spell would still live.
 

Lhynn

Arcane
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
9,865
BG2 was more susceptible to having encounters become more of a cake walk due to over gearing but over leveling was certainly an issue as well. Though if you think BG2 encounters are challenging, well, lol, maybe if you hamstring yourself or something.
Not really, enemies powerful abilities/spells and hard counters made levels matter quite a bit less than they do in PoE.
 
Joined
Feb 13, 2011
Messages
2,234
BG2 was more susceptible to having encounters become more of a cake walk due to over gearing but over leveling was certainly an issue as well. Though if you think BG2 encounters are challenging, well, lol, maybe if you hamstring yourself or something.
please find me one encounter in PoE as difficult as Twisted rune, Heart Seal team,Kangaxx or Draconis :lol: inb4 adra dragon. in that case Demogorgon is also difficult even though you can oneshot him with spike traps:M
 

Perkel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 28, 2014
Messages
15,909
How confussion spell/abilities class came to exist in current form:

OBSDIAN HQ:

Design Team: " now for Confusion spell and abilities based on that"
Josh Sawyer: " i already sorted it out"
DT : " ok "
JS : " I propose -10 to deflection for 20 seconds and - 10 to attack"
DT : " YOU KNOW WHAT MOTHERFUCKER !? FUCK YOU AND YOUR BALANCE, WE CAN'T DEAL WITH THAT SHIT ANYMORE !!!"
JS : wow... why so hostile ? let's...
DT: F U C K Y O U. NO WAY YOU WILL DO THAT SHIT AGAIN
JS : but...
DT: Do you see =designer2= there ? HE COULDN'T FUCKING SLEEP AT NIGHT BECAUSE YOU CHANGED HIS FAVORITE WEB SPELL INTO FUCKING SLOW SPELL WITH SOME SHIT MALUS
JS : but that is balanced !
DT: FUCK YOUR BALANCE ! EITHER WE WILL DO CONFUSION SPELL OR WE QUIT !
JS : FINE ! you can have one spell !
 

Grinning Reaper

Guest
How confussion spell/abilities class came to exist in current form:

OBSDIAN HQ:

Design Team: " now for Confusion spell and abilities based on that"
Josh Sawyer: " i already sorted it out"
DT : " ok "
JS : " I propose -10 to deflection for 20 seconds and - 10 to attack"
DT : " YOU KNOW WHAT MOTHERFUCKER !? FUCK YOU AND YOUR BALANCE, WE CAN'T DEAL WITH THAT SHIT ANYMORE !!!"
JS : wow... why so hostile ? let's...
DT: F U C K Y O U. NO WAY YOU WILL DO THAT SHIT AGAIN
JS : but...
DT: Do you see =designer2= there ? HE COULDN'T FUCKING SLEEP AT NIGHT BECAUSE YOU CHANGED HIS FAVORITE WEB SPELL INTO FUCKING SLOW SPELL WITH SOME SHIT MALUS
JS : but that is balanced !
DT: FUCK YOUR BALANCE ! EITHER WE WILL DO CONFUSION SPELL OR WE QUIT !
JS : FINE ! you can have one spell !
:stupid:
I also wondered about those few spells that actually do something useful.
It will probably be patched out.

Ha, so you find a bit of design in PoE that you actually agree with and think to yourself hmm, how can I use this to fuel my mindless Sawyer butthurt? I know!! Everything I actually like in the game wasn't Sawyer's call and everything I hate was!! Hwrpa Dwrp indeed.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Perkel

Arcane
Joined
Mar 28, 2014
Messages
15,909
:stupid:
Ha, so you find a bit of design in PoE that you actually agree with and think to yourself hmm, how can I use this to fuel my mindless Sawyer butthurt? I know!! Everything I actually like in the game wasn't Sawyer's call and everything I hate was!! Hwrpa Dwrp indeed.


No but confusion spell in PoE feels like it is from other game considering how all of other spells and abilities works like.

At this point i am simply outstanded that for example Knockback didn't became:

Knockback:
- moves away enemy 0.1m away
- - 10 to deflection for 3 seconds

This is how most of spells abilities work like (- moves away lol)
 

Grinning Reaper

Guest
:stupid:
Ha, so you find a bit of design in PoE that you actually agree with and think to yourself hmm, how can I use this to fuel my mindless Sawyer butthurt? I know!! Everything I actually like in the game wasn't Sawyer's call and everything I hate was!! Hwrpa Dwrp indeed.


No but confusion spell in PoE feels like it is from other game considering how all of other spells and abilities works like.

At this point i am simply outstanded that for example Knockback didn't became:

Knockback:
- moves away enemy 0.1m away
- - 10 to deflection for 3 seconds

This is how most of spells abilities work like (- moves away lol)

In other words, the game has a baseline of balance (from which everything is positioned to one side or the other) and then has outliers as well such as confusion and knockback. Sounds pretty much like every decent single-player RPG ever made. Oh but that's right, the blind hatred for Sawyer and the dreaded Balance aren't subject to reason.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Lhynn

Arcane
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
9,865
I cannot into the title of this thread, poe system is fairly simple, just swich 1d20 for 1d100 really.
 

ZagorTeNej

Arcane
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Dec 10, 2012
Messages
1,980
LOL at the title, par for the course. Hatorz just can't comprehend such a brilliant system, they don't *get it*.
 

Rostere

Arcane
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Stockholm
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Especially the stat system in the BG games was completely horrendous. For all its faults, the PoE stat system is a stroke of genius in comparison. The reason people don't completely dismiss the stat system in the IE games as complete nonsense is because you associate it with P&P 2nd ed AD&D where it can serve a purpose.

There are a lot of faults and things to improve in PoE, but you guys who claim the IE games were so good in all these areas compared to PoE are standing on very shaky ground.
 

Atchodas

Augur
Joined
Apr 23, 2015
Messages
1,047
- crappy defenses for mages

Lol @ OP you cant just write something like this and expect people to take you seriously , you just cant . ( I still agree that PoE is garbage in a lot of aspects )
Battlemage was a beast pre 1.05 (insta cast buffs )and its completely broken unhitable build now with 130-140 deflection at lvl 4 this can be achieved just by using 2 skills so yeh .... you sir full of shit
 

BPM

Novice
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Aug 10, 2014
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15
Location
Other Space
- crappy defenses for mages

Lol @ OP you cant just write something like this and expect people to take you seriously , you just cant . ( I still agree that PoE is garbage in a lot of aspects )
Battlemage was a beast pre 1.05 (insta cast buffs )and its completely broken unhitable build now with 130-140 deflection at lvl 4 this can be achieved just by using 2 skills so yeh .... you sir full of shit
:bro:
 

BPM

Novice
Joined
Aug 10, 2014
Messages
15
Location
Other Space
The ignorance of how the system works in poe and how to build a character for some rpgcodex members is very sad.
 

Lhynn

Arcane
Joined
Aug 28, 2013
Messages
9,865
Especially the stat system in the BG games was completely horrendous. For all its faults, the PoE stat system is a stroke of genius in comparison. The reason people don't completely dismiss the stat system in the IE games as complete nonsense is because you associate it with P&P 2nd ed AD&D where it can serve a purpose.

There are a lot of faults and things to improve in PoE, but you guys who claim the IE games were so good in all these areas compared to PoE are standing on very shaky ground.
stat means more than attributes you disgusting fanboy.
And no, ive already explained why and how attributes in BGII were more serviceable to the RP part of RPG, and about as serviceable in the G part of it. The biggest difference id say would be that BGII attributes have a bit more depth than simply saying "yellow is the tanking stat, red is the dps stat, mix and match people!"
 

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