Civilization V

[tuluse]

I don't know. In Civ5 you certainly don't have to pick "one" strategy and follow it to the end, because situations change. Maybe you don't find enough iron to be a warmonger? Okay, no big deal, can easily switch from military focus to pure industrial/economic, and then to science. A warmonger can then either try and control the competition for a science victory, just razing cities to not get the science hit, or even focus on social policy and ideology by puppetting. Pillaging and looting cities can net a sizable amount of cash to shore up your main cities.

A focused science victory lends itself easily to a military one with small modifications. It's just a matter of staying alive until you can strike many places hard and fast.

Probably the only one that needs a little focused effort would be tourism in BNW, because keeping your great Artists/Writers/Musicians(or holding off on the latter), getting the big art wonders(Louvre, etc.), dropping concert tours in the late ages, and all that, does require one to have an eye to it early to be really successful. However, that said, the late ideology switches and where everyone ends up, can make a culture/tourism victory more appealing even to someone who hasn't necessarily been focusing on it. Futurism and Cult of Personality from Order can swing your tourism rating massively couple with some musicians and other great works(which, by the way, you can take from people).

Think there's a little more to the game than either of you are giving credit to, or maybe just haven't played enough. And I love Civ4, still on my HD. Just different strokes.

I have never reached a situation in Civ5 where I couldn't go ahead with my initial strategy and it wasn't the most optimal strategy because the cost of switching to a new one outweighed just making minor adjustments to my initial strategy.

I haven't played a lot of BNW though.

 

[Dickie]

I can expand but why bother when one city->tradition->great library rush->philosophy free tech->national academy national wonder gives me 4 times more science than having 5 cities? And costs no unhappiness too. There are simply optimal strategies for this game and that makes it boring, at least at the start. In civ 4 it wasnt so, you had a choice about techs, now its always the same.

What difficulty do you play on? I'm not trying to be smug. The AI usually builds the Great Library within 50-100 turns on epic speed when I play. This is nowhere near enough time for me to get it and the calendar tech while not getting wrecked. Maybe if you were being Egypt, you could pull this off regularly. Even marble wouldn't help that much since you'd have to go get masonry.

 

[Malakal]

I can expand but why bother when one city->tradition->great library rush->philosophy free tech->national academy national wonder gives me 4 times more science than having 5 cities? And costs no unhappiness too. There are simply optimal strategies for this game and that makes it boring, at least at the start. In civ 4 it wasnt so, you had a choice about techs, now its always the same.

What difficulty do you play on? I'm not trying to be smug. The AI usually builds the Great Library within 50-100 turns on epic speed when I play. This is nowhere near enough time for me to get it and the calendar tech while not getting wrecked. Maybe if you were being Egypt, you could pull this off regularly. Even marble wouldn't help that much since you'd have to go get masonry.

Emperor. Not that I couldnt play on Deity since unlike civ4 its actually piss easy but on difficulty higher than emperor AI indeed does build all the wonders and that takes away half the fun out of the game. I actually managed Immortal most of the time in civ 4 but there playing without wonders and up the hill could be fun.

 

[Monocause]

That's one of the things I think is awful about Civ5.

Pick your strategy at the beginning and just follow it until the end. No room for hybrids, or trying something new, or even switching gears to a completely different strategy half-way through the game.

That's not true. What I meant was, if you pick a strategy you need to commit to it now as in - forego fast tech advancement or culture to build more units, develop infrastructure and pick key social policies until the situation changes. Then there may come a moment where you realise that even though you've got numerical superiority some other civ has got a technological edge that nullifies it, so you need to catch up.

Playing Civ5 well is having a general idea what do you want to do with your Civ but at the same time constantly monitoring the situation and adapting. What I meant is that you can no longer be a jack of all trades that focuses on everything and still succeeds; at least, you can't do it on higher difficulties. You need to find a balance so that different areas of your empire aren't totally unredeemable shit but you can't just develop everything well.

I definitely agree about the lack of coherence though.

I can expand but why bother when one city->tradition->great library rush->philosophy free tech->national academy national wonder gives me 4 times more science than having 5 cities? And costs no unhappiness too. There are simply optimal strategies for this game and that makes it boring, at least at the start. In civ 4 it wasnt so, you had a choice about techs, now its always the same.

And then you hear Bismarck knocking on the door with 15+ units and realise that your science rush made you easy pickings. I agree that it can be an optimal strategy but definitely not in all circumstances, especially when you get one of the more bloodthirsty civs as your neighbours.

Seriously, I don't want to defend Civ5, I'm thinking it could be a much, much better game as well - but most of the complaints I'm seeing in the past few pages are banging the wrong drum. The game is definitely solid if you play it with both expansions (never played it without them as I heeded the warnings and skipped it for a long time).

 

[Malakal]

Yea, right, then Bismarck attacks me with 15 units and I kill them all with 3 units of archers. Have you even played civ 5? Have you fought any wars there? I routinely kill enemies at 5-1 losses. All you need is some ranged units and good use of the terrain.

 

[oscar]

I hate playing on settings that give the AI bonuses, but does it also effect AI behaviour?

I'm tempted to try out some of the mods that change the happiness system as it is rather annoying having the strength to easily expand but being held back by happiness, so I have to sit around and twiddle my thumbs teching. Even settling cities for new luxury resources hardly seems worth it considering the happiness, research and culture burden.

This is all rather ironic considering in most 4Xs the complaint is warfare being too central and essential to success.

 

[MadMaxHellfire]

no, the ai is always the same, on higher difficulties it get insane numerical advantages. ie, past prince you just can't found your religion.

 

[Malakal]

no, the ai is always the same, on higher difficulties it get insane numerical advantages. ie, past prince you just can't found your religion.

Of course you can, bonuses arent that extreme, and you dont even have to play Celts. Things get harder and only extreme on the highest difficulties.

As an emperor level player I usually can found my own religion if I care about that, I have a shot at most wonders if I beeline for them or if they are wonders that AI does not prioritise greatly (its harder getting the Great Library and Stonehenge than Oracle for example).

 

[MadMaxHellfire]

last time i played, every ai nation began with the ability to build shrines. founding a religion was impossible.
did they fix this?

 

[Heresiarch]

last time i played, every ai nation began with the ability to build shrines. founding a religion was impossible.
did they fix this?

On Emperor (I think) and harder the AI start with Pottery as an extra tech. That allows them them to build shrines.

 

[Malakal]

last time i played, every ai nation began with the ability to build shrines. founding a religion was impossible.
did they fix this?

It may be so but shrines are a really shitty way of gaining piety and so are temples. If you ally a religious city state fast or build Stonehenge or have a special ability giving piety or invest into religious civics you can easily found a religion.

 

[MadMaxHellfire]

last time i played, every ai nation began with the ability to build shrines. founding a religion was impossible.
did they fix this?

On Emperor (I think) and harder the AI start with Pottery as an extra tech. That allows them them to build shrines.

yes, of course i missed to add "on higher difficulty levels".

last time i played, every ai nation began with the ability to build shrines. founding a religion was impossible.
did they fix this?

It may be so but shrines are a really shitty way of gaining piety and so are temples. If you ally a religious city state fast or build Stonehenge or have a special ability giving piety or invest into religious civics you can easily found a religion.

yes, sure, HOW are you going to ally with that city? with the money you haven't? gifting units you haven't? doing missions which don't pop up?
all you can do on higher difficulties is endure until you have enough ranged units to begin exploiting ai's ineptitude at war.

 

[Malakal]

Oh please I am playing on emperor and I know what you can do. You can be lucky and pop a few goodie huts with gold - its easier now than it was in civ4 since terrain and civ distribution gives you more. You can easily get a "kill barbarians" quest early if there is a barbarian camp spawning near a city state (happens often). I also often manage to get Stonehenge even after the Great Library especially with good production start. You can extort few city states to buy a religious one - especially if you start with a unit upgrade hut and then build few units.

Finally there are 6 religions available and thats quite a lot since not all AIs prioritizes religion. I almost never get the first one but 4-5 is easy, trust me on that.

 

[IDtenT]

What I find very interesting about CIV V is that it's basically a war game. Even if it's a bad one. This was never a focus in previous games.

 

[KoolNoodles]

What I find very interesting about CIV V is that it's basically a war game. Even if it's a bad one. This was never a focus in previous games.

Lol. Ummm, war has always been a pretty huge focus in every civ game. If you played at any of the higher levels in Civ4, war was practically mandatory. If you weren't Axe/Mace/Cavalry/Tank rushing someone, at some point, you were going to lose.

 

[IDtenT]

All strategy games that require victory to be enjoyed is shit.

In any case, that may be true - but that's why I don't play the higher difficulty levels.

 

[Malakal]

What I find very interesting about CIV V is that it's basically a war game. Even if it's a bad one. This was never a focus in previous games.

Lol. Ummm, war has always been a pretty huge focus in every civ game. If you played at any of the higher levels in Civ4, war was practically mandatory. If you weren't Axe/Mace/Cavalry/Tank rushing someone, at some point, you were going to lose.

Not entirely true. You needed an army to defend yourself, obviously, but as long as you didnt play on the two highest difficulty levels you could win peacefully. Especially with certain map types that didnt favor expansion ie Pangaea was a warmonger paradise while archipelago helped turtle.

On the other hand in civ5 war doesnt give you nearly enough either. You deny enemy resources but you yourself dont gain that much unless you can cover the map with your cities.

 

[MadMaxHellfire]

You can be lucky
if there is
if you start with a unit upgrade hut

can you see it? really, can you see it?

Finally there are 6 religions available

if you play with more than 10 civs it's almost impossible to found a religion.
if you play with all of them or almost, like many like to, like me, it's guaranteed you'll never found a religion.

 

[KoolNoodles]

I'm not so sure, are you picking civs that get a "better" start on the religion path? I can almost always get a religion on a huge map with 12+ civs if I focus on it. Keep in mind that about 2/3rds of all players can found a religion unless you go past 12. Playing the Celts and leaving the start bias at default(so civs start sorta kinda where they might "historically) is practically a guaranteed religion(you should get a pantheon in 5-10 turns, and a religion shortly after). Not to mention their UU gives faith on kills. Bee-lining Stonehenge is practically a guaranteed religion. Playing as Ethiopia is also really easy to get a religion(monuments, which you build anyways, give faith). The Mayan UB, the pyramid gives double the faith of a shrine and also +2 science allowing you to head towards temples faster. If you pick the Piety tree you can easily have both their pyramid and a temple up and on your way to a religion. Also, pretty much any civ that goes Piety branch and builds a couple shrines/temples should at least sneak in the last religion. Only a handful of AI civs really prioritize religion, and that in itself depends on if they are even in the game.

 

[Malakal]

You can be lucky
if there is
if you start with a unit upgrade hut

can you see it? really, can you see it?

Can YOU? Dont tell me you dont pop goodie huts. You usually get either gold a tech or unit upgrade. Its not magic its common gameplay feature. If you cant get a religion perhaps you should play at noble or something.

 

[MadMaxHellfire]

edit: alright, i'm going to be kind this time, i'll help you more.

You can be lucky
if
if

can you see it better now?

stuff

we're talking about playing on higher difficulties, where every ai gets a jump start.
at least i am, i'm not even sure anymore he knows what planet he's on.

 

[KoolNoodles]

I guess I'm talking about Emperor level, or even King I suppose. I don't usually play above Emperor anymore. Too gimmicky, like all previous civ games. I suppose on Immortal you could grab a religion as either the Celts or Ethiopia, but I doubt it on Deity. At least not with any sort of regularity.

 

[Space Satan]

CivV war is horrible, horrible. You cna kill dozens of units with archers and even a smallest of cities require tons of cannon fodder to capture, thanks to wound system. And the most annoying shit is notifications - open borders cancelled - propose open borders - open borders cancelled - deal expired - deal proposed - this insaneshit goes forever. You have to crenegotiate diplomatic crap almost every turn. There is no option to sign a permanent open borders, i.e. until cancelled by one sidem same goes for trade. Unnecessary clicking goes nonstop. After a while you just go: "FUCK YOU!" and click just to make that popup disappear.

 

[RK47]

 

[KoolNoodles]

Yeah, as far as clicking popups to make them go away, CK2 is my favorite simulator by far. It might be the parchment feel. Even the dumbest shit seems vaguely important.