KickStarter Broken Sword The Serpent's Curse

[kaizoku]

Send them a message with your concerns.
I doubt they change the game's theme, but maybe they'll be creative enough for it to be interesting.

 

[Guido Fawkes]

I withdrew my pledge already. You guys are welcome to mention it, though.

I might check it out after it is release, if what I hear about the game is good. My impression is that it won't, though. The gameplay was not the only thing wrong with BS 3 and BS 4.

 

[almondblight]

Satan isn't ill-defined at all.

Satan's very ill-defined. He doesn't really show up in the old testament much, and in books like Job he's working on behalf of God as some part of a devine council. Much of the popular views about Satan (the same as Lucifer and the Serpent, the rebellious angel, cast out of heaven, working against man) are not from anything that's explicitly stated in the Bible, but what people assumed later on.

(I've read that Judeo-Christian concepts of the Devil as an entity were influenced by Zoroastrianism, but I don't know to what extent)

Cecil mentions the "Gospel of Truth" in that interview. It is one of the main texts used to attack the gnostics, both before and after the rise of Catharism. You see, they believed in two gods: a lesser god, earthly, evil and opressive(The "Demiurge") and an enlightened god, the one that offered salvation through... knowledge. Now, the orthodoxy obviously shunned these heretical views, but there was more. This division between two "gods" and some of the characteristics of the second "god"(the one they worshipped) was what lead Saint Dominic and others of accusing them of devil worship before the Albingensian crusade.

Right. According to the Gnostics, the Orthodoxy followed (mistakenly) the demiurge. That doesn't give Orthodox Christianity Satanic leanings.

And it makes all the sense in the world really. "Lucifer" means "Light bearer" after all, and the tempting serpent at the garden of Eden("Lucifer" again) used offerings of knowledge and power to deceive humanity. The symbolism is clear. Couple that with the gnostic belief that knowledge and enlightenment would lead them to be "as God" and you got the picture.

Again, Lucifer and the Serpent were later revisions. I know that some Gnostic sects had a favorable view of the Serpent, though I haven't seen them put much importance on Lucifer (which I've seen translated as "morning star"). Keep in mind Lucifer only shows up once in the Bible, seemingly referring to the King of Babylon. It was only later that people decided to equate him with some kind of demonic force.

Most belief systems think that knowledge of God brings you closer to God - hence profits, hence missionaries. The Gnostics went a bit further than some in that some of them believed in some transcendent knowledge that would reconnect you with God. Which is still similar to a number of other religions (including sects of Christianity), and also doesn't seem to be particularly related to Lucifer/"morning star".

Most of the favorable depictions of Cathars(and gnostics in general) you find nowadays are really wishy-washy. Much of our knowledge about them might be biased and exagerated, but their shit was obviously crazy.

In what way? It doesn't seem too different from most religious dogmas.

 

[Guido Fawkes]

You don't know what you are talking about. Or rather, you are taking a protestant stance of sola scriptura(that the only reliable source of religious knowledge is scripture). Satan is very well defined, not only he is quite frequently mentioned in the Bible, but there is a wealth of Christian and Judaic tradition concerning him. This wikipedia page is a nice start:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_teaching_about_the_Devil

Right. According to the Gnostics, the Orthodoxy followed (mistakenly) the demiurge.

No, according to the Gnostics the Orthodoxy didn't make that distinction. They invented that division between the god of the OT and NT in order to justify their particular dualistic views(that all the world and creation is evil and corrupt, and originated in an evil and lower god), and that obviously went more and more out of control.

For the Catholic understanding of the Cathars, this is a good read:

http://www.ewtn.com/library/HOMELIBR/HERESY5.TXT

As for why they were insane, I would mention that their rejection of everything material as evil is a good example. From the wikipedia page on Catharism:

As a consequence of their rejection of oaths, Cathars also rejected marriage vows. Sexual intercourse between the sexes and reproduction was viewed as a moral evil to be avoided. Their moral doctrine was based on the belief that the material world including the flesh was intrinsically evil as stemming from the evil principle or god.[23] Such was the situation that in order for a reputed Cathar to have the charge of heresy against him dismissed he needed only to show that he was legally married.

They were obviously quite suicidal. Not only did they avoid procreation, as they also indulged in euthanasia, suicide, abortion and other very ungodly practices that are strangely anacronistic.

And these are just the well documented and proven practices of their religion(from the few documents written by Cathars themselves that survive), there are many accusations that are considered defamatory now but that are probably true. One accusation made by Bernardo de Gui(and which sounds plausible with all things considered) is that homossexuality was tolerated among them as something preferable to marital relations, as a means of avoiding procreation. They were frequently depicted as "sodomites" in later literature.

They were also very unorthodox in their beliefs about ressurection, knowledge as the only source of salvation(as opposed to faith and good works), and else.

Many later occult tradition taking a gnostic theology chose to comprehend them under a very non-historical light. For instance, they are often portrayed as very tolerant and meek(which is partially true, they were vegetarians and oficially shunned warfare, although they armed themselves and fought ferociously when the push came to shove), and as "enlightened" alternative to the Church(which they consider evil). They were also perceived as proto-protestants by many latter chroniclers(something that is partially true also, they had a much simpler hierarchy and rejected apostolic authority). As a Catholic, the accusation that their beliefs were downright satanical makes absolute sense, and it should make sense to anyone that accepts orthodox theology. But obviously, I can understand how an anti-Christian might perceive them positively, specially considering the fact that they were massacred quite brutally. That always tends to cause unwarranted sympathy.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Can you take your retarded religious shit out of here and keep it with your butt-buddies in the dedicated sub-forum? Nobody sane wants to hear about your primitive retarded beliefs about how it's satanic to touch your pee-pee.

 

[Guido Fawkes]

What are you talking about? I was commenting on the premise of the game and almondblight asked me to clarify(twice). If you don't like reading about this sort of thing, just ignore it instead of burning in butthurt.

 

[almondblight]

As a Catholic, the accusation that their beliefs were downright satanical makes absolute sense, and it should make sense to anyone that accepts orthodox theology.

Ah, sorry. I've noticed that there tends to be two types of people that like to talk about these things - those that are interested in religious history, and those who are religious and are trying to settle grudge matches with people that have been dead for over 1,500 years. Of course if you were a bit of a...zealous follower of a particular religion, you might think things like Satan is well defined and Gnostics are Satanic. You might also have a rather...particular view of history and groups in history, and view any historians that don't back that up as infidels acting against The Truth.

Anyway, my mistake, I thought you might have been a fellow Christian history geek.

 

[Guido Fawkes]

Catholics aren't Christian eh?

Ah, sorry. I've noticed that there tends to be two types of people that like to talk about these things - those that are interested in religious history, and those who are religious and are trying to settle grudge matches

Sure. Me thinks thou just showeth it.

 

[kaizoku]

Now for something completely different...

Dave Cummins and Jonathan Howard are not part of the team this time round. Any particular reason why you were curious about these guys?

 

[Guido Fawkes]

Bad. Will you follow up with "Because I think the writing on BS 3 and BS 4 sucked?" or a more polite variant?

 

[kaizoku]

The Brazilian Slaughter how should I follow up?

thx bro

 

[ghostdog]

Dave Cummins and Jonathan Howard are not part of the team this time round. Any particular reason why you were curious about these guys?

- Because, dear sir, you said : "WELL, WE'VE GOT THE TEAM BACK TOGETHER. Charles Cecil has assembled his team - including many of the original Revolution crew" and Dave Cummins and Jonathan Howard were the people who wrote the story and dialog in the first two games... So YEAH I think their presence is pretty much needed especially since the last 2 games that were written by Cecil himself, were crap.



Damn. I don't think I'll be following this then.

 

[Guido Fawkes]

Most people think Cecil is the brain behind all the games(well, he did design all of them, and kudos to him for the first 2 at least). I wonder if most fans would be so optmistic about the return to 2d if they knew that the writing will be in line with the 3rd and 4th games.

 

[FeelTheRads]

What I would like to hear is them admitting they fucked up with BS3 & 4. At least we'd know that they realize their mistakes and will try to avoid them. Of course, it would take guts to do that. I guess you could interpret them going 2D as sort of a silent admission, though.

 

[kaizoku]

Broken Sword: The Sleeping Dragon

Story and Game Design:	Charles Cecil, Neil Richards, Steve Ince, Tony Warriner, Jonathan Howard
Dialogue:         	Neil Richards, Steve Ince, Jonathan Howard
Story & Script Editor:	Neil Richards

Secrets of the Ark: A Broken Sword Game

Story Writers:	Charles Cecil, Neil Richards
Script Writer:	Neil Richards

 

[Darth Roxor]

LIBRULZ

Get the fuck back to GD.

 

[Aeschylus]

To be honest, all of the plots of the Broken Sword games were a bit dopey, including the first two. I mean, we're not exactly talking about Dostoevsky here. They also did the Templar thing before Dan Brown, so that's worth something I suppose.

I don't really care so much if the plot is cheesy, I care more about the areas that will be available to explore, the dialogue, and the puzzle design.

 

[Guido Fawkes]

Plots were simple and cheesy, but they were not "Dawnbrowned" bad until the 3rd game. I think this Cecil guys is obsessed with his shit. He even designed the game adaptation of the Da Vinci Code movie(which according to reviews, was utter shit. Haven't played it).

 

[kaizoku]

To be honest, all of the plots of the Broken Sword games were a bit dopey, including the first two. I mean, we're not exactly talking about Dostoevsky here. They also did the Templar thing before Dan Brown, so that's worth something I suppose.

I don't really care so much if the plot is cheesy, I care more about the areas that will be available to explore, the dialogue, and the puzzle design.

this again

has there been any game whose writing was at Dostoevsky's level?
Furthermore, it was one thing playing a game like BS on a pre-internet era when you were 16.
Another thing is playing it when you're 25 or older, after you realize that everything is shit (tm). (especially after you've been at the codex)
The bar has been raised so much, that the clear image of a game being/becoming a hallmark in the genre is just a mirage. (and I'm not talking exclusively on adventure games)
Also, Dan Brown.... fuck that loser.

Now excuse while I get into my bubble of happiness.

got a reply:

A team of writers is working on the script, but the big stars are Charles Cecil and Neil Richards.

fuck it. I'm still going for it. And repent for my past sins.
If it sucks, I'll sell the box latter.


edit: minor tweaking of George
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects...nts-curse-adventure/posts/299579?ref=activity

 

[FeelTheRads]

Looks slightly better, I guess.

I like their toon renderer, though. Hmm, I wonder what they use.

 

[Aeschylus]

this again

has there been any game whose writing was at Dostoevsky's level?
Furthermore, it was one thing playing a game like BS on a pre-internet era when you were 16.
Another thing is playing it when you're 25 or older, after you realize that everything is shit (tm). (especially after you've been at the codex)
The bar has been raised so much, that the clear image of a game being/becoming a hallmark in the genre is just a mirage. (and I'm not talking exclusively on adventure games)
Also, Dan Brown.... fuck that loser.

Now excuse while I get into my bubble of happiness.

got a reply:

A team of writers is working on the script, but the big stars are Charles Cecil and Neil Richards.

fuck it. I'm still going for it. And repent for my past sins.
If it sucks, I'll sell the box latter.


edit: minor tweaking of George
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects...nts-curse-adventure/posts/299579?ref=activity

No need to get all defensive, or reductio all the way ad absurdem. All I was saying is that the overarching plot was never really the main draw of the BS games to me. I never said it was shit, just a bit silly, which is fine. I'm supporting the project, and believe it will be good.

 

[FeelTheRads]

Stretch goal for 1 million is greenlight BASS2.

Shit... I can see this going to 700k maybe, but 1 million?

Maybe if it doesn't happen they'll make another Kickstarer for it.

 

[VonVentrue]

Trying to kill two birds with one stone? That was unexpected. I'm not sure if it's nothing short of pure genius (trying to increase the chances of both projects seeing the light of day) or insanity.

 

[kaizoku]

Do you want to see the return of the infamous goat?

If we reach this goal we will start work on this exciting, much-demanded project, and implement Easter eggs in Broken Sword: the Serpent's Curse, offering a glimpse of this futuristic dystopia.

I see that as a carrot. Independently from reaching the $1M goal or not, I think they'll launch a KS for BASS 2.
More problematic is the fact its sole writer - Dave Cummins - is no longer with them.
Sometimes I wonder how much do the names on the credits reflect things.

Design	Charles Cecil, Dave Cummins, Dave Gibbons, Daniel Marchant
Script	Dave Cummins

I think it's possible for them to reach $1M.
IIRC, apart from DFA, all the other adventure games struggled to succeed.
They have reached their goal and have another 2 weeks to go.

I'm getting more and more anxious about this. I'm worried they won't be able to pull a decent game.
And I read "easter eggs" too many times :-/

 

[Aeschylus]

I dunno, I like the look of the stretch goals. It's all adding gameplay, and I don't think the $$ amounts for the goals are unrealistic. Hopefully it'll at least reach the 650k goal for the extra locations. 1m seems a bit unlikely, but who knows.