Bethesda Releases Concept Art

[GhanBuriGhan]

[And I hadn't even noticed the Dreugh. Why do Dreugh have to change their appearance between each installment?

We think its a Dreugh undergoing his land dwelling phase. They are in the lore, so that is kind of cool, I think.

 

[MrSmileyFaceDude]

Some of you make it sound like the Daedric is the only armor in the game. If you don't think it's appropriate for your character, there's plenty of other armor types. I'm sure you'll find something.

 

[Twinfalls]

Daedric is the strongest of heavy armours, is it not? Therefore wouldn't any heavy-armour user eventually be inclined by the mechanics of the game to want to acquire Daedric?

 

[merry andrew]

Daedric is the strongest of heavy armours, is it not? Therefore wouldn't any heavy-armour user eventually be inclined by the mechanics of the game to want to acquire Daedric?

If they suck.

 

[Odorousrex]

Daedric is the strongest of heavy armours, is it not? Therefore wouldn't any heavy-armour user eventually be inclined by the mechanics of the game to want to acquire Daedric?

ah but you forget. Enchanting is now a perk of the Mage's Guild only. No longer can any joe slob bring in a piece of daedric and come out with the Ultra-Daedric Armor of Asskicking.

So my guess is the pre-enchanted "named" pieces (like in MW) will be come the "upper crust" of armor: Helm of Oreyn Bearclaw, Fists of Randgulf, Lord's Mail, Ebony Mail, Spell Breaker, etc.


Of course, that doesn't stop the 100 in all skills Uber-Tank-Mage's from getting Daedric enchanted to their heart's content.

 

[Section8]

We think its a Dreugh undergoing his land dwelling phase. They are in the lore, so that is kind of cool, I think.

That's kind of interesting, actually, but I'm still not a big fan of the actual design.

Daedric is the strongest of heavy armours, is it not? Therefore wouldn't any heavy-armour user eventually be inclined by the mechanics of the game to want to acquire Daedric?

I found Ebony plate in Morrowind was a more than adequate substitute, and bit lighter on the encumbrance than Daedric, so worth it for the extra pack ratting it allowed. Plus, it didn't look quite so silly, unless you mix and match.

 

[GhanBuriGhan]

Daedric is the strongest of heavy armours, is it not? Therefore wouldn't any heavy-armour user eventually be inclined by the mechanics of the game to want to acquire Daedric?

Only if you are a god-damned powergamer.

 

[Otaku_Hanzo]

I'm with Section8 on this one. I preferred ebony over daedric in both Daggerfall and Morrowind, what little I played of it. Sure it wasn't as strong or couldn't hold as many enhancements, but it was lighter and strong enough to get the job done.

 

[Twinfalls]

Yeah that's coz Morrowind was so piss-easy you fellas didn't feel any compulsion for more protection after level 20. What might change is the new game might be better balanced than that.

What most assuredly will not change is the overall TES game mechanic of getting uberer in order to progress the story.

 

[Twinfalls]

So my guess is the pre-enchanted "named" pieces (like in MW) will be come the "upper crust" of armor: Helm of Oreyn Bearclaw, Fists of Randgulf, Lord's Mail, Ebony Mail, Spell Breaker, etc.

Ah, so the game will now encourage warriors to assemble piecemeal outfits from the odds-and-sods of legendary artifacts. Leading to characters resembling... (and I thank you for the excuse to once again post my favourite Morrowind image ever)

Scavenger-Man!!

 

[Chefe]

Daedric is the strongest of heavy armours, is it not? Therefore wouldn't any heavy-armour user eventually be inclined by the mechanics of the game to want to acquire Daedric?

Only if you are a god-damned powergamer.

So, you're telling me that if you're setting there playing through Oblivion... roleplaying your character... and you defeat a horde of daedra with their leader at the end, kill him and acquire a daedric cuirass, your character would just say "No thanks. It goes against my roleplaying!"

That's one of the huge problems with Morrowind, you had to really limit yourself if you didn't want to blow through everything very easily. You had to play out-of-character. I remember finding the Elidion's Ward, arguably the best shield in the game, at level 5. It sucks finding something like that so early in the game. The thing's defense rating is huge, and it can restore 50 of your health points! Of course, why would my character, defending for himself in this alien and hostile environment, put DOWN one of the greatest fucking pieces of equipment on the island?

I'm no damn powergamer.

 

[Section8]

I'm with you on that Chefe, it's only roleplaying to ignore something uber if you're roleplaying a fucking idiot. I wear Ebony in preference to Daedric because they're comparable. Foregoing Daedric in preference to Iron is a bit silly. That's what was great about Daggerfall's advantage/disadvantage system. It allowed you to trade off on things like that to better define your character.

The game rewarded you for making restrictive choices in character. It did admittedly also offer munchkinism, but that's a small price to pay, since it did its bit to prevent munchkinism if your character resolve weakened.

 

[Balor]

 

[GhanBuriGhan]

I'm with you on that Chefe, it's only roleplaying to ignore something uber if you're roleplaying a fucking idiot. I wear Ebony in preference to Daedric because they're comparable. Foregoing Daedric in preference to Iron is a bit silly. That's what was great about Daggerfall's advantage/disadvantage system. It allowed you to trade off on things like that to better define your character.

The game rewarded you for making restrictive choices in character. It did admittedly also offer munchkinism, but that's a small price to pay, since it did its bit to prevent munchkinism if your character resolve weakened.

Considering that the making of daedric items involves a process of torturing deadra, a lot of my characters would indeed not use it on principle. Others of course would. It depends on the character. Nothing wrong with that. Its silly to demand that there should be other armors just as good just because you don't like the looks!

 

[Micmu]

That's one of the huge problems with Morrowind, you had to really limit yourself if you didn't want to blow through everything very easily.

Exactly. Morrowind was one big LARP simulator, and Oblivion tends to be even bigger (Blade!!! Non-blade!!!).
At least there is a spellcasting penalty while wearing an armor now, but the penalty "wears off" in time which could be bad again. The weight of Daedric armor was a restriction, but not big enough after a while.

 

[Section8]

Considering that the making of daedric items involves a process of torturing deadra, a lot of my characters would indeed not use it on principle. Others of course would. It depends on the character. Nothing wrong with that. Its silly to demand that there should be other armors just as good just because you don't like the looks!

I'm just asking for game accountability.

Daggerfall provided limited rewards for making RP choices through it's advantage/disadvantage system so I could forego daedric gear and compensate with a character strength. This sort of thing is core to an RPG system worth its salt.

Think about D&D 3E. Plate armour is a huge advantage to an otherwise soft and squishy caster type. So wearing it comes with an appropriate disadvantage, in % for arcane spell failure. The player can further define their character with a feat to overcome this, but once again, at a disadvantage, although this time it's much slighter, and so it's a choice worth making.

I'm also aware of the torturing part of armour creation, and that's another factor in my character not choosing it aside from "OMG t3gh ev1l!!!!" looks. But wouldn't it be so much better if the bad vibes the armour still retains affect the character? If I'm good, pure and holy, it's likely to corrupt me in some way.

Even going back to judging by looks, wouldn't it also be nice if NPCs reacted in quite a negative fashion to someone who looks so clearly evil? What about if the whole "gates to Oblivion" shit has everyone so on edge that common society will attack anyone wielding Daedric equipment? I want fucking moral dilemna to oppose uberness.

This argument has been done to death, but I believe RP choices should be reflected by game consequences to some degree, and that there should be an acceptably minimal threshold of gimping for RP's sake. There's a big difference between powergaming/munchkinism and deliberately making crippling RP choices.

Secondly, why should a perfectly logical and valid character choice, like not wearing the uber evil armour greatly penalise the player? I've made a perfectly valid character choice to tag Heavy Armour as a primary skill, why should I be greatly disadvantaged if my character is a purehearted plate wearer?

What if my character's very core principle is that of a holy crusader, seeking to oppose those who corrupt themselves with Daedric artifacts? Wouldn't it be essential to my character build that he is not greatly inferior to that which he opposes?

 

[Zomg]

I agree that there should be a minimum level of balance to prevent wholesale, gamebreaking self-gimping, but it is also unnecessary to make all paths of development and role-playing choices equally powerful, even putatively. Not least of all because it is realistically impossible (any system can be compromised), but also because it will end up making the created world too precious and crafted-feeling. "Oh, the best sword in the universe has exact axe, spear, shotgun, mace, dagger, and numchuck analogs!", "Oh, the best item has significant drawbacks commensurate with its minor superiority to the second best item!".

The idea that people would be afraid of a character in Daedric armor is a good one, but not necessarily as a balancing mechanism.

 

[Lumpy]

Daedric is the strongest of heavy armours, is it not? Therefore wouldn't any heavy-armour user eventually be inclined by the mechanics of the game to want to acquire Daedric?

Only if you are a god-damned powergamer.

So, you're telling me that if you're setting there playing through Oblivion... roleplaying your character... and you defeat a horde of daedra with their leader at the end, kill him and acquire a daedric cuirass, your character would just say "No thanks. It goes against my roleplaying!"

That's one of the huge problems with Morrowind, you had to really limit yourself if you didn't want to blow through everything very easily. You had to play out-of-character. I remember finding the Elidion's Ward, arguably the best shield in the game, at level 5. It sucks finding something like that so early in the game. The thing's defense rating is huge, and it can restore 50 of your health points! Of course, why would my character, defending for himself in this alien and hostile environment, put DOWN one of the greatest fucking pieces of equipment on the island?

I'm no damn powergamer.

So what's the problem? It's obvious that Daedric should be the toughest, because it's created by gods. Daedra want to look evil. That's why Daedric armor looks evil. What's the problem with that?

 

[M'Aiq the Dragon]

So what's the problem? It's obvious that Daedric should be the toughest, because it's created by gods. Daedra want to look evil. That's why Daedric armor looks evil. What's the problem with that?

The problem is that people around you don't react to it.
It doesn't bother NPC's when you're wearing Daedric armour. It is nice for NPC's to be non-prejudice, but it's not really realistic. :wink:

I don't know about you, but I would react quite differently to someone wearing an Hells Angels outfit, then someone in a suit.

Something like that could offset the enormous armour bonus you get from playing with Daedric. It's a really strong armour with little weaknesses. (Encumberance being the only real weakness)
Anyhow some people feel it should have more weaknesses.
Or it should be harder to find.
(Eleidon's ward story)

 

[GhanBuriGhan]

Considering that the making of daedric items involves a process of torturing deadra, a lot of my characters would indeed not use it on principle. Others of course would. It depends on the character. Nothing wrong with that. Its silly to demand that there should be other armors just as good just because you don't like the looks!

I'm just asking for game accountability.

Daggerfall provided limited rewards for making RP choices through it's advantage/disadvantage system so I could forego daedric gear and compensate with a character strength. This sort of thing is core to an RPG system worth its salt.

Think about D&D 3E. Plate armour is a huge advantage to an otherwise soft and squishy caster type. So wearing it comes with an appropriate disadvantage, in % for arcane spell failure. The player can further define their character with a feat to overcome this, but once again, at a disadvantage, although this time it's much slighter, and so it's a choice worth making.

I'm also aware of the torturing part of armour creation, and that's another factor in my character not choosing it aside from "OMG t3gh ev1l!!!!" looks. But wouldn't it be so much better if the bad vibes the armour still retains affect the character? If I'm good, pure and holy, it's likely to corrupt me in some way.

I think you people here are generally too focused on the RPG systems around here. You want everything covered and handled by the system, so that it makes sense and provides all kind of feedback. But good roleplaying has little to do with what the system forces or allows you to do and everything with what you make of it. In fact in P&P I found the better sessions were often the ones with the really simple rule systems, just becasue they did not get in the way of the actual roleplaying. Roleplaying is an exercise of the mind, staying in character is something YOU have to do, and I have no problem applying the same discipline to CRPG's as well. If the console kids don't have the discipline for that I can understand that, but that you guys, self-proclaimed hardcore RPGamers can't, that surprises me. So if you want to feel tempted to evil by wearing daedric, go ahead, but don't force me to do the same. Leave some room for free roleplaying and imagination, don't simulate everything.
So, should it really be the game that "corrupts you" or should it not be up to you if you want to play that corruption or not? Your example regarding magic and armor is a different thing, becasue it is all about game balancing and should be judged on that basis.

BTW, what you describe for 3rd edition armor - spellcasting relationships, sounds just like what MSFD told us about how it will work in Oblivion

 

[Lumpy]

So what's the problem? It's obvious that Daedric should be the toughest, because it's created by gods. Daedra want to look evil. That's why Daedric armor looks evil. What's the problem with that?

The problem is that people around you don't react to it.
It doesn't bother NPC's when you're wearing Daedric armour. It is nice for NPC's to be non-prejudice, but it's not really realistic. :wink:

I don't know about you, but I would react quite differently to someone wearing an Hells Angels outfit, then someone in a suit.

Something like that could offset the enormous armour bonus you get from playing with Daedric. It's a really strong armour with little weaknesses. (Encumberance being the only real weakness)
Anyhow some people feel it should have more weaknesses.
Or it should be harder to find.
(Eleidon's ward story)

And how exactly should they react?
"This guy is wearing the best armor in the world. He must be evil, because it is black. Arrest him!!1"
Or how else?

 

[Micmu]

Well, in FO2 NPCs were aware of you wearing a power armor: "It's a walking refrigerator!"

 

[Chefe]

I think you people here are generally too focused on the RPG systems around here. You want everything covered and handled by the system, so that it makes sense and provides all kind of feedback. But good roleplaying has little to do with what the system forces or allows you to do and everything with what you make of it. In fact in P&P I found the better sessions were often the ones with the really simple rule systems, just becasue they did not get in the way of the actual roleplaying. Roleplaying is an exercise of the mind, staying in character is something YOU have to do, and I have no problem applying the same discipline to CRPG's as well. If the console kids don't have the discipline for that I can understand that, but that you guys, self-proclaimed hardcore RPGamers can't, that surprises me. So if you want to feel tempted to evil by wearing daedric, go ahead, but don't force me to do the same. Leave some room for free roleplaying and imagination, don't simulate everything.
So, should it really be the game that "corrupts you" or should it not be up to you if you want to play that corruption or not? Your example regarding magic and armor is a different thing, becasue it is all about game balancing and should be judged on that basis.

BTW, what you describe for 3rd edition armor - spellcasting relationships, sounds just like what MSFD told us about how it will work in Oblivion

I've stated my thoughts above, so I'm not going to repeat them, but I am going to say this...

If I have to "imagine" the roleplaying, they sure has hell better not charge 50 bucks for this. I can go "imagine" roleplaying for alot cheaper with PnP, and do it socially with other people.

 

[M'Aiq the Dragon]

And how exactly should they react?
"This guy is wearing the best armor in the world. He must be evil, because it is black. Arrest him!!1"
Or how else?

Well it's the same as wearing ordinator armour.

The ordinators attack you because you're wearing their armor. Not because you're wearing such good armour, but because there is no way you would have aqcuired it legally. They know you're not an Ordinator, because they don't know you from Ordinator training-school. And when you speak to them they will know you're not an Ordinator. WTF is he/she doing with an Ordinator uniform? I know he/she isn't stationed in Vivec! He/she must have killed or stolen from an ordinator to get this armor.
This is true in most cases. Getting Ordinator armour the legal way was very rare. Though you get some ordi armour in ghostgate. The quest of solving the killings in Vivec was also an option. And there was a dead Ordinator near Kogoruhn.

They had a better solution, imho, in the Dread Knight mod. Though that mod had it's flaws. Searching for the Shards was very aggrevating. I only found one. Then I used the console to get the remaining 2. (They were the size of propylon indexes and were located somewhere on a Dwemer ruin)

Anyhow I know it's very prejudice of the NPC's, but people in real life just are very prejudice as well.

But you can see the urgency for an Ordinator to attack you on spot when you're wearing Ordinator armour. Though they should have reduced the number of legal ways to get Ordinator Armour. Though I really enjoyed the concept of having ordinators attack you when you're wearing Ordinator armour.
Wouldn't you question a civilian toting around a Jacket with Sergeant stipes?

---------

Anyhow back to Daedric armour. If you're an NPC and you see someone wearing Daedric armour you won't question why he's wearing it.
It's the best armour in the game. Simple.

YOU DO, however question how he got.
Now here are two options:
- He got it from killing Daedra.
or...
- He's serving a Daedra Lord.

Well if you're able to kill Daedra you already should be wearing decent armour (mithrill/ebony), so no use changing outfit.
So it would make more sence to me that when someone's toting around Daedric armour would be evil. The chances are just quite a few% higher for them to be evil.

I must confess A GOOD implemention of this would be quite difficult. There are various strings attached to it. And I agree, It's not a neccecity. It could however add a lot to the game.
Anyhow my idea for implementing this, (Though I feel there are more urgent matters to adress in TES):
- Have daedric armour damage your personality
Advantages:
+ NPC's will frown upon you, but you can tell them you mean to do good. Just raise your personality or use your speechcraft to get them to know you better. (Or let them think they know you better)
+ Some NPC's who are really prejudice might get to attack you on site. Well it's not a bad thing killing prejudice NPC's.
Or maybe they weren't prejudice and you really are evil.

Disadvantages:
- You can't enchant the armour (Unless they add the ability to add enchantments later on)
- Easily exploitable. Just do the same stuff as with the boots of blinding speed.


------
In world war I the french wore bright blue uniforms (obvious disadvantage). The Germans wore something more camouflaging. The french should have changed their uniforms, but they can't just take the uniforms of dead Germans. That would cause tremendous confusion.

 

[Section8]

I think you people here are generally too focused on the RPG systems around here. You want everything covered and handled by the system, so that it makes sense and provides all kind of feedback. But good roleplaying has little to do with what the system forces or allows you to do and everything with what you make of it. In fact in P&P I found the better sessions were often the ones with the really simple rule systems, just becasue they did not get in the way of the actual roleplaying. Roleplaying is an exercise of the mind, staying in character is something YOU have to do, and I have no problem applying the same discipline to CRPG's as well.

I don't have any problem with the discipline, and I recognise that good roleplaying tends to happen independent of system. But I'm also recognising the big difference between P&P and CRPGing.

If I make a choice and roleplay my character independent of the system in a P&P session, then there are other players who react accordingly to the choices I make, and also, a Dungeon Master to account for my choices and tailor the campaign, encounters and NPC reactions accordingly.

Single player CRPGs don't offer this kind of social interaction, so they need to substitute something in its place. If a game doesn't account for the RP decisions you make, why play the game? Why not find a nice patch of sun, kick back, and daydream instead? You're flexing that imagination without any of the constraints of a CRPG. Or even better, how about commiting some of that imagination to some form of creative media, like art or literature, so others can enjoy the fruits of your imaginings. That is after all what P&P RPGing is, entertaining yourself and friends with a collective creative output.

If the console kids don't have the discipline for that I can understand that, but that you guys, self-proclaimed hardcore RPGamers can't, that surprises me. So if you want to feel tempted to evil by wearing daedric, go ahead, but don't force me to do the same. Leave some room for free roleplaying and imagination, don't simulate everything.

I'm not really about discipline here. I can manage to stay in character and freely roleplay, but I find it mostly unfulfilling. I don't want a freeform sandbox where I can do as I please and orchestrate the events as I see fit. Here's how I see that theory at its most extreme:

The NPC greets you.

"I find that tone of voice insulting, and being the proud Orc Barbarian that I am, you must now die!"

Player kills NPC.

"The Guards would have seen that and done something. Now I'd better attack an visible guards to represent the actions they failed to take."

Player kills Guards.

"Oh shit, now my faction with this town is ruined, I'd better pay some kind of fine for my heinous act."

Player drops money.

I can just let my imagination run wild if the game doesn't account for anything ever. But it doesn't really do it for me. Even fan fiction is a better outlet.

When it comes to CRPGs, I want a reactive world. I want to be able to make choices, and have consequences simulated accordingly. Ideally, across a huge gamut of potential actions and events. That way I'm participating in a dynamic narrative, not just making it up myself.

So, should it really be the game that "corrupts you" or should it not be up to you if you want to play that corruption or not? Your example regarding magic and armor is a different thing, becasue it is all about game balancing and should be judged on that basis.

Game dynamics should be inseparable, for the most part, from RP in a CRPG. Game balance is there to make valid character choices comparable, and to maintain a fairly even comparison between players who have made varied, but theoretically equal character choices.

I don't see why that balance shouldn't extend to other facets of the character, like how he chooses to present himself. I don't want to wear the armour that is clearly defined as evil, because my character does not want to present as evil. As I've stated before, I have no problem mustering up the self discipline to not wear that armour, but I'd rather see both the game accounting for my choice, and some degree of balance between a variety of uber gear.

And how exactly should they react?
"This guy is wearing the best armor in the world. He must be evil, because it is black. Arrest him!!1"
Or how else?

How about, you're in a game world where the gates to Oblivion have opened, and Daedra are invading. If an ordinary person in that fearful situation saw this coming at them, do you think perhaps they might misconstrue you somehow? What about those who are trying to defend Cyrodiil from said invaders. Would they stop and ask everyone who looked fucking evil and demonic if they were a big evil daedra lord, or just some guys dressed up as one?

Given that even our own advanced civilisation has more than its fair share of xenophobia toward people who "look like terrorists" would it be fair to assume that a far more primitive society would be even more fearful and hostile toward what they perceive as the enemy? Let's continue with that, and consider the minor threat that terrorism poses in our own world, versus the impending doom/apocalpytic implications of "Hell on Earth" in Cyrodiil.

I believe something similar was implemented to at least a half arsed extent with Indoril armour and Ordinators in Morrowind.