NSFW Best Thread Ever [No SJW-related posts allowed]

[Stinger]

No wait...fuck it there's a few more:

Any game that isnt a shooter, a platformer, puzzle game or strategy game is an RPG. Nah, I probably missed some other genres, and the difference between an RPG and an adventure game (ie like Zelda) can get pretty fuzzy, but to me RPG is a pretty huge expanse of games as long as you play a "role", ie your character/characters actually exist and you interact with the game world through them, and you have some degree of customization over those interactions.

My answer to this question got me into trouble before on this very wiki but since I have really slopey shoulders, it just slides off.

Every game you play on a computer apart from possibly solitaire is an RPG.

You play Football Manager (real football, not rugby or that thing two-legged tanks play on a grid iron) on the PC, you are playing the role of a football manager, you are not really being one. I defy anyone to say that game doesn't have as many stats as what are (lazily in my view) defined as wrpgs/jrpgs.

You play IL 2 Sturmovik ( Oleg Maddox's paean to the flight sim), you are playing the role of a WW 2 Russian/German fighter pilot. Unless you are over 80 years old, you are not really being one or ever have been one.

You play Mass Effect, as either the frankly ugly male Shepard or the hot as heck Fem-Shep, you are not really the commander of a big feck off space-ship, you are playing the role of one.

To say any game isn't an rpg, you have first to extremely narrowly define what an rpg is to accommodate either your own or some other persons/groups/factions prejudices. As a gamer, you get enough of those without adding any others. And that isn't opinion, it is subjective fact. That is, it is fact to me. Your mileage may vary etc etc.

Thankfully the subsequent responses shoot this post down.

He's only right if you literally interpret the meaning of the words and ignore everything else, such as the history of the genre, its roots, and the generally accepted definition, nebulous though it may be. Interpreting it to mean "any game where you play a role" is useless.

You could do the same for other genres as well. How about point and click adventure games? In Baldur's Gate, you point and click and you're on an adventure, so I guess that fits! Space simulation games? When I play Super Mario Land, I'm occupying space, and it's simulating being a plumber in the mushroom kingdom, so that fits as well! Wheee!

Ok that should be enough. I keep posting all the derpy shit in this one thread and I'll be here all week.

 

[Infinitron]

Possible "LOL, TVTropes" dedicated thread in the future?

 

[Aldebaran]

What always boggles my mind about these "RPGs are only about role playing" types is that, and I am stereotyping here, they always seem to home in on story as a requirement. Isn't that completely contrary to what they are arguing? Wouldn't games like Darklands or some other games with a minimalist/traditional story actually lend themselves more to the act of role playing? When you are playing Mass Effect, sure, you can role play a variety of Shepard, but you are still this military guy at the end of the day. You still have to stop the reapers, visit the planets that the developers have layed out, and make the choices that have been chosen by the writers. In Darklands you can possibly never follow the Baphomet angle. The characters, their goals, and their history are completely at the whims of your own particular flavour of retardation. You want to make a band of women fighting against the heteronormative powers of the patriarchy? Go right ahead. You'll probably face just as many consequences for these imagined actions as you would in a modern RPG regardless.

These people who claim to be interested in role playing and yet are touting Mass Effect as a shining example of an RPG are settling for games with:
1.)Much fewer dialogue options.
2.)A much higher degree of railroading.
3.)None of the abstraction in dialogue that allows the player to impose their own tone on a message.
4.)Pre chosen names.
5.)No ability to change the physical aspects of the character outside of appearance.
6.)Fewer methods to approach, or not approach, combat.
7.)Next to no ability to define your character. Don't want your Shepard to be a military man? Too bad.

The only thing that I can think of is that these people want to role play someone else's character. Which is, unless the character is already well established, impossible. You can't roleplay this Shepard fellow because he has no history, defined morality, or personality. There is no need to justify any of his choices with his personality outside the scope of the game because it doesn't exist. You can role play a character who happens to be named Shepard, but then the player is defining this character as they go. Do you know what that is? Character creation. Essentially, this is no different from what any old RPG did, except that most of the fun stuff has been done for you. If that is the problem, then just pick a pre generated character in any other RPG. It might even pick an alignment and history for you.

Old RPGs are not only mechanically superior to their modern counterparts, they also provide a much higher degree of freedom for these role playing types.

Then of course we have the people that claim that the only requirements for an RPG are obstacles, the means to upgrade your character, and then overcome the obstacles. Personally, I couldn't agree more. Super Metroid has my vote for the best RPG of all time.

 

[Infinitron]

What they want: An interactive, choose-your-own-adventure Joss Whedon TV show.
What they call it: An RPG!

 

[Gragt]

RPG's are about ferrets.

 

[DwarvenFood]

Upon performing deep analysis of the RockPaperShotgun thread, as well as making an educated guess as to the state of the codex hivemind in it's pre-ME3 glory days, I think it is prudent that our First Person Shooters subforum be renamed Interactive Drama.

Also, this isn't opinion, it's subjective fact.

 

[Luzur]

RPG's are about ferrets.

 

[hoopy]

Hah. So the thread I posted earlier lead to a goldmine after all:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=13309358180A90920100&page=1

I would say that an RPG is a game that allows you to define your character. Their personality, their motivations. The standard approach in video games is to give you a character, and your only role is in getting him from one scripted cut scene to the next, with no real say in how the story progress.

A lot of the classic RP Gs aren't actually role-playing games. I love games like Chrono Trigger or EarthBound, but they're not actually role-playing games. They seemed to be shoe-horned into the RPG genre because they involved dealing with stats and equipment, something common to tabletop RP Gs. But they gave you no more say in the character or story than any other game.

But because the early RP Gs were based on stat and equipment management, that became the definition to a lot of people. A lot of people feel that RP Gs are defined by mechanics, which infuriates me, because that is the least important part! The most important part about an RPG is that it's a role-playing game.

I'll make a comparison. Mass Effect is an RPG. Uncharted is not. In Mass Effect, you take on the role of Commander Shepard. You define the character. You decide what motivates him: a love of adventure, a desire to protect the innocent, a desire to keep humanity strong, xenophobia, whatever. In Uncharted, you control Nathan Drake, whose personality and motivations are already laid out. In Mass Effect, your decisions influence the story, albeit in usually minor ways. In Uncharted, the story is already written. Uncharted is basically a movie. Your only purpose is to shoot the people you're told to shoot. Mass Effect is a role-playing game, where you actually get to take part in the story itself. You get to shape the cut scenes. Uncharted could add experience points and resource management, but that wouldn't magically transform it into an RPG, because you're still not actually defining the character or shaping the story.

Mechanics don't make an RP Gs. It's actually possible to have an RPG with no stats. They exist, though they're not common. One thing and one thing only defines an RPG: Are you role-playing a character? If you're only controlling a pre-made character, then no. If you're deciding how your character reacts to events, then yes.

GUYS OLD RPGS AREN'T ACTUALLY RPGS CAUSE I CAN'T LARP! MIND=BLOWN

He's mostly right. Am I supposed to be outraged and disagree with it just because it was posted on TVTropes?

 

[Infinitron]

RPGs are about rockets.

 

[Admiral jimbob]

And that isn't opinion, it is subjective fact.

Tam H70 is a pedophile whose favourite novel ever is that 670,000-word Fallout/My Little Pony rape crossover fanfic. He also lives near me

 

[Menckenstein]

And that isn't opinion, it is subjective fact.

Tam H70 is a pedophile whose favourite novel ever is that 670,000-word Fallout/My Little Pony rape crossover fanfic. He also lives near me

Wistfully smiling while comitting onanism.

 

[MMXI]

You know what guys? I think I understand where the other group is coming from with regards to what is and isn't an RPG.

To us (the correct group) a cRPG is effectively a computerised (pen and paper) RPG. An RPG is a specific type of game, following on from the likes of D&D, and is not just any game that allows you to role-play. The likes of Mass Effect is effectively a third person shooter that allows you to role-play. It is therefore not a computerised pen and paper RPG as it is based on another type of game entirely, which means that it is not a cRPG.

The other group (incorrectly) believe that an RPGs is any type of game that allows you to role-play. They must believe that Katawa Shoujo and other "games" like that are RPGs because you make choices in them. They don't think stats are necessary because they don't think that cRPGs have to be computerised pen and paper RPGs.

In other words...

To us, cRPGs are computer... role-playing games (such as D&D).
To them, cRPGs are computer games (of any type)... that let you role-play.

Of course, cRPGs don't have to be directly based on an actual pen and paper RPG. Most of them outside of the D&D cRPGs aren't. Having said that, they can all be converted to pen and paper RPGs, regardless of the resultant quality. Wizardry, Might and Magic, Fallout... even ultra simplified stuff like Ultima V and The Bard's Tale can be converted to simplified pen and paper RPGs. But Mass Effect and Skyrim? Well, they can be translated to paintballing and stick fighting perhaps...

EDIT: In before action RPG fans get all butthurt!

 

[JarlFrank]

Well, even (good) action RPGs can be converted to pen and paper if you try - you'd just have to modify the combat rules a lot. But the basics are there: stats, levelling up, choosing skills/perks, being able to create a distinct character with his own stengths and weaknesses.

And before anyone goes "hurr add a skill tree to a shooter and you think it's an RPG", no. Note that I said "distinct character with his own strengths and weaknesses". There should be differences in playstyle and effectiveness of certain actions in different character builds. Look at Deus Ex, Bloodlines, Gothic. The underlying RPG mechanics have a great influence on how the game is played.

Mass Effect, on the other hand, doesn't really have any underlying RPG mechanics. It's mostly a cover shooter with skills tacked on. Stats should be an integral part of the gameplay, and different builds should actually have different competences (mage is good at hauling spells but lacking at combat, for example). If every character plays exactly the same, it's most likely not an RPG (or the rule system is just very shit). Simple as that.

 

[Infinitron]

Tropers gonna trope

 

[Infinitron]

The Giggle That Squees In The Night

 

[Sceptic]

Am I the only one who remembers TVT back when it wasn't all creepy fangirls? Some of the stuff Ed linked is fucking scary.

 

[Xor]

I thought TVTropes was just an annoying website that tried to label everything having to do with TV, movies, etc, in an attempt to ruin that stuff for everyone else. Why does the internet.

 

[Infinitron]

To be fair, most of these videos show excerpts from various pages' "Troper Tales" sections, all of which have since been removed from the site.

 

[Turisas]

Not all sites can be as cool as the Codex, unfortunately.

 

[Admiral jimbob]

To be fair, most of these videos show excerpts from various pages' "Troper Tales" sections, all of which have since been removed from the site.

The forums are just as bad.

 

[hoopy]

This Month in Misogyny: Exposed Minors, Hair-Pulling, and Advanced Elephantiasis

Three more reasons to hide your hobby from female friends and well-wishers.

The author is gravely offended by some otaku fanservice games nobody has heard of, and thinks they have ruined the reputation of video games and driven away all the women. It's exactly as idiotic as it sounds. Also, he never gets around to explaining how these games express hatred towards women. Maybe he forgot because he was too busy hyperventilating.

Immoral Women: Why We Need More of Them

The reality of the situation is that the portrayal of women as pure, stainless alabaster icons of virtue is a huge problem that arises from cultural stereotypes of women. The notion that women are inherently more virtuous, kinder, and so on is part of the limiting and fetishising pedestalisation that serves to fence us off from being thought of as persons. Human beings are flawed characters with failings and weaknesses; angels are not.

Everything is always a huge problem. If it wasn't, how would this "feminist sociologist" writing about "transgender politics" find employment?

When I call for ‘good portrayals’ I do not mean that all women should be virtuous. On the contrary, I actually want to see more women as villains, or as morally grey/dubious characters. The simple reason for this is that such figures can be fascinating, merit much discussion, and are fully human.

Kind of like how minorities in the ghetto are keeping it real, as opposed to white middle class men in the suburbs who are leading fake lives.

The author goes on use multiple games as examples... all of them by BioWare.

One Pixel Among Many: An Interview with Angel McCoy, Part 2

I want what all of us at ArenaNet wants: to produce a game that people love. That’s no small thing. But, there’s more. I also want Guild Wars 2 to be seen as the innovation that pulled gaming out of the Dark Ages. When future gamers look back on the Guild Wars 2 era, I want them to be able to say that this game changed how people play, how they interact with each other, and how all subsequent games approached game design. I want Guild Wars 2 to set an example and raise the bar so high that other game companies have to really stretch outside their comfort zone to awesome new levels of intelligent gaming. I want Guild Wars 2 to show people how damn much fun a living world like Tyria can be to explore, with all its quirky, evil, tragic, tender, and likeable characters.

I wonder if even Molyneux could spout this kind of horse shit with a straight face.

The writers at ArenaNet do seem to be striving for something new and different, to tell new kinds of stories that include a wider range of sexualities and bodily configurations, which can only be good for gaming as a whole.

I hope Thief 4 is going to have a wider range of sexualities. That's the most important thing.

 

[Stinger]

To be fair, most of these videos show excerpts from various pages' "Troper Tales" sections, all of which have since been removed from the site.

The forums are just as bad.

The forums are worse. One thread started with a seemingly harmless topic about whether we need more female astronauts. One person had the brilliant idea that yes we do need more female astronauts cause they weigh less and therefore would be more cost effective (WHAT THE FUCK!). Some other person calls this guy out on his stupid sexism and promptly gets 'thumped' and because there were no other dissenters this idea goes on for way too long and by the end of the thread tropers started talking about how they need to surgically alter women into baby storage things to be fuel efficient while still enabling growth of a new population when we land on Mars.

Jesus Christ.

 

[hoopy]

The forums are worse. One thread started with a seemingly harmless topic about whether we need more female astronauts. One person had the brilliant idea that yes we do need more female astronauts cause they weigh less and therefore would be more cost effective (WHAT THE FUCK!). Some other person calls this guy out on his stupid sexism...

But women do weigh less than men. How is it sexist to say so?

 

[Roguey]

You know what guys? I think I understand where the other group is coming from with regards to what is and isn't an RPG.

To us (the correct group) a cRPG is effectively a computerised (pen and paper) RPG. An RPG is a specific type of game, following on from the likes of D&D, and is not just any game that allows you to role-play. The likes of Mass Effect is effectively a third person shooter that allows you to role-play. It is therefore not a computerised pen and paper RPG as it is based on another type of game entirely, which means that it is not a cRPG.

The other group (incorrectly) believe that an RPGs is any type of game that allows you to role-play. They must believe that Katawa Shoujo and other "games" like that are RPGs because you make choices in them. They don't think stats are necessary because they don't think that cRPGs have to be computerised pen and paper RPGs.

In other words...

To us, cRPGs are computer... role-playing games (such as D&D).
To them, cRPGs are computer games (of any type)... that let you role-play.

Of course, cRPGs don't have to be directly based on an actual pen and paper RPG. Most of them outside of the D&D cRPGs aren't. Having said that, they can all be converted to pen and paper RPGs, regardless of the resultant quality. Wizardry, Might and Magic, Fallout... even ultra simplified stuff like Ultima V and The Bard's Tale can be converted to simplified pen and paper RPGs. But Mass Effect and Skyrim? Well, they can be translated to paintballing and stick fighting perhaps...

EDIT: In before action RPG fans get all butthurt!

Two designers who disagree with you:
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/4316/richard_garriotts_next_journey.php?page=3

Well, once D&D became more and more popular and you ran out of good storytellers for gamemasters, it devolved, in my mind, into the [talks with a lisp] "Well, I'm standing behind you and I've got a +3 sword, and I've got a slight advantage because my dexterity is a little higher", and they do complicated calculations, then once every five minutes, roll die, and say you win. Which I think it not roleplaying.
It might be a fun game... This is my personal definition; most people don't adhere to this. Diablo, great game. Loved it. For me, I use the term "RPG" for it because it is a stats game. It's a "Do I have the best armor equipment compared to the creature I'm facing?" There's not really any story for it. It's a great challenge reward cycle game. Blizzard, by the way, does the best challenge reward cycle games I've seen.

On the other hand, Thief or Ultima are role-playing games versus RPG -- which I know stands for role-playing game. When I think of a role-playing game, it is now where you are charged with playing an actual role and qualitative aspects of how you play are every bit as important as what equipment you use. That's what I find most interesting. It's a lot easier to do stories there.

http://www.rpgwatch.com/show/article?articleid=55

I was not especially thrilled with the way combat felt in the Infinity Engine, but I write this off to my predilection for the immediate rush of first-person shooters, and the fact that the AD&D rules are in themselves a shorthand for that immediacy as well. I have always felt that the biggest problem with tabletop gaming is the pure nitpickery of slogging through combat; entire sessions have been wasted on a single battle. Computer gaming should, in theory, create a seamless flow, allowing action to occur naturally and fluidly. I suppose the Infinity Engine was the closest one could get to such fluid action while still retaining at least the outline of the basic AD&D rules. Essentially, I’m torn between the desire to immerse the player in a combat situation and the desire to make sure even slow-twitchers get something out of a game.

 

[MMXI]

Well, once D&D became more and more popular and you ran out of good storytellers for gamemasters, it devolved, in my mind, into the [talks with a lisp] "Well, I'm standing behind you and I've got a +3 sword, and I've got a slight advantage because my dexterity is a little higher", and they do complicated calculations, then once every five minutes, roll die, and say you win. Which I think it not roleplaying.
It might be a fun game... This is my personal definition; most people don't adhere to this. Diablo, great game. Loved it. For me, I use the term "RPG" for it because it is a stats game. It's a "Do I have the best armor equipment compared to the creature I'm facing?" There's not really any story for it. It's a great challenge reward cycle game. Blizzard, by the way, does the best challenge reward cycle games I've seen.

On the other hand, Thief or Ultima are role-playing games versus RPG -- which I know stands for role-playing game. When I think of a role-playing game, it is now where you are charged with playing an actual role and qualitative aspects of how you play are every bit as important as what equipment you use. That's what I find most interesting. It's a lot easier to do stories there.

He's basically saying that role-playing games aren't much about role-playing, and that he wishes role-playing games were more about role-playing. Tough luck, Garriott! Now explain to me why you even bothered with stats in your games?

I was not especially thrilled with the way combat felt in the Infinity Engine, but I write this off to my predilection for the immediate rush of first-person shooters, and the fact that the AD&D rules are in themselves a shorthand for that immediacy as well. I have always felt that the biggest problem with tabletop gaming is the pure nitpickery of slogging through combat; entire sessions have been wasted on a single battle. Computer gaming should, in theory, create a seamless flow, allowing action to occur naturally and fluidly. I suppose the Infinity Engine was the closest one could get to such fluid action while still retaining at least the outline of the basic AD&D rules. Essentially, I’m torn between the desire to immerse the player in a combat situation and the desire to make sure even slow-twitchers get something out of a game.

Yeah. This guy is basically saying the exact opposite of what I'm saying. He's saying that cRPGs shouldn't be computer RPGs but should be computer games, with all their 3D real-time advantages over tabletop games, that allow for role-playing. So basically, instead of a small scale wargame with role-playing options he prefers a first-person shooter with role-playing options.