Baldur's Gate does not deserve to be lumped with the rest of Bioware's shit

[Infinitron]

"No organization will aid you". Not quite true, Neverwinter itself is the organization. Specifically, the whole mercenary adventurer outfit organized by Aarin Gend and Aribeth. They just don't have a catchy name

 

[Lyric Suite]

I think this argument works better with Bethesda than it does with Bioware, because Bethesda has changed developers quite often. The people who did Daggerfall are not the same people who did Morrowind (i remember reading that the lead designer of Daggerfall actually did work on Morrowind, but quit in the middle of development and was replaced by the guy who gave us Oblivion). Redguard and Battlespire were also made by different teams if i remember (wasn't one of them made by Todd himself? Forgot which).

But Bioware, it is always them. You just can't get around that fact. And seriously, both BG games have a lot more in common with modern Bioware games than some would ever want to admit. And let's be frank, David Gaydar was always David Gaydar. Its not like he went from Avellone levels of writing to the shit he is churning out today. The derp was always there.

 

[Awor Szurkrarz]

Thread title says it all. BG1 and BG2 do not deserve to be lumped in with the Bioware's later shitty games.

They do.

 

[DraQ]

The people who did Daggerfall are not the same people who did Morrowind (i remember reading that the lead designer of Daggerfall actually did work on Morrowind, but quit in the middle of development and was replaced by the guy who gave us Oblivion).

I object to the use of "gave" in this context.

 

[~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸-AIN'T]

But Bioware, it is always them. You just can't get around that fact. And seriously, both BG games have a lot more in common with modern Bioware games than some would ever want to admit. And let's be frank, David Gaydar was always David Gaydar. Its not like he went from Avellone levels of writing to the shit he is churning out today. The derp was always there.

Gaider's role has changed dramatically, though. Seriously, he's actually a pretty solid designer (lots of design work in BG2, Ascension mod, worked on pop demand mod for Vicky 2). The problem is that for some reason people liked his awful writing and he dropped designing to become pretty much exclusively a writer. If the opposite had happened, who knows, maybe Bioware would be a lot less shitty.

 

[Ausdoerrt]

Thread title says it all. BG1 and BG2 do not deserve to be lumped in with the Bioware's later shitty games. I suggest we have a forum for the "90's Classics", basically all BIS and Troika games, including games published by BIS. This will unfortunately include Lionheart, but what can you do.

But they are Bioware games through and through. Not as dumbed down (yet), but as soon as you see the dialogues, you *know*.

 

[DraQ]

Thread title says it all. BG1 and BG2 do not deserve to be lumped in with the Bioware's later shitty games. I suggest we have a forum for the "90's Classics", basically all BIS and Troika games, including games published by BIS. This will unfortunately include Lionheart, but what can you do.

But they are Bioware games through and through. Not as dumbed down (yet), but as soon as you see the dialogues, you *know*.

You mean this:

[good] I'll do it for free and suck your dick while we are at that.
[evil] I'll do it, but I demand payment for my time, expenses and, you know, risking my life and you won't get a free blowjob either.

?

 

[Ausdoerrt]

Thread title says it all. BG1 and BG2 do not deserve to be lumped in with the Bioware's later shitty games. I suggest we have a forum for the "90's Classics", basically all BIS and Troika games, including games published by BIS. This will unfortunately include Lionheart, but what can you do.

But they are Bioware games through and through. Not as dumbed down (yet), but as soon as you see the dialogues, you *know*.

You mean this:

[good] I'll do it for free and suck your dick while we are at that.
[evil] I'll do it, but I demand payment for my time, expenses and, you know, risking my life and you won't get a free blowjob either.

?

Pretty much. Okay, in BG the [evil] was the [neutral], and there was also the [evil] response, "I'll bite your dick off".

Like all BW games, BG is ultimately pretty linear and unresponsive to your decisions/actions.

 

[DraQ]

Thread title says it all. BG1 and BG2 do not deserve to be lumped in with the Bioware's later shitty games. I suggest we have a forum for the "90's Classics", basically all BIS and Troika games, including games published by BIS. This will unfortunately include Lionheart, but what can you do.

But they are Bioware games through and through. Not as dumbed down (yet), but as soon as you see the dialogues, you *know*.

You mean this:

[good] I'll do it for free and suck your dick while we are at that.
[evil] I'll do it, but I demand payment for my time, expenses and, you know, risking my life and you won't get a free blowjob either.

?

Pretty much. Okay, in BG the [evil] was the [neutral], and there was also the [evil] response, "I'll bite your dick off".

Like all BW games, BG is ultimately pretty linear and unresponsive to your decisions/actions.

In before someone tries to explain (angrily but not very coherently) how BG1 was a deeply non-linear, exploration centric experience of the finest sort.

 

[meanwhileInPoland]

Thread title says it all. BG1 and BG2 do not deserve to be lumped in with the Bioware's later shitty games. I suggest we have a forum for the "90's Classics", basically all BIS and Troika games, including games published by BIS. This will unfortunately include Lionheart, but what can you do.

But they are Bioware games through and through. Not as dumbed down (yet), but as soon as you see the dialogues, you *know*.

You mean this:

[good] I'll do it for free and suck your dick while we are at that.
[evil] I'll do it, but I demand payment for my time, expenses and, you know, risking my life and you won't get a free blowjob either.

?

vs.

Spoiler

 

[pippin]

While Baldur's Gate only had few instances of significant dialogue like those posted above, having dozens of npcs who basically say the same stuff isn't really appealing either.
However, the focus of both the Baldur's Gate Trilogy and Morrowind was somewhere else, not the dialogue system.

 

[Lonely Vazdru]

having dozens of npcs who basically say the same stuff isn't really appealing either.

It can kick you in the head until you are dead.

 

[pippin]

having dozens of npcs who basically say the same stuff isn't really appealing either.

It can kick you in the head until you are dead.

Don't quote me! I might catch something...

 

[Jaesun]

Get me outta this hell hole.

 

[MilesBeyond]

Don't quote me! I don't want any trouble!

Also since this thread is apparently taking the direction of every other Bioware or IE thread (i.e. whether BG1 was shit or not)... I find it hard to say. Personally I love BG1, but for mostly subjective reasons. There's something about it... It's just the right balance, for me, of simplicity and possibility, if that makes sense. Like if I'm not feeling a hardcore RPG, but if I want something a bit deeper than your usual casual fare, to me it scratches the perfect itch. Also I love the early levels of the D&D system. Something about how even your 18 CON Fighter can be one-shotted at level 1 adds a certain level of excitement (although also frustration).

Plus there's the nostalgia factor. BG1 was far from the first RPG I played, but for some reason it stands out in my memory more than most others I played at that time. It's got the right amount of charm and silliness to make it fun, but not so much that it interferes with the game. And that's kind of something nice about it too - NPCs who have personality, but who don't stop and badger you about their home lives every five minutes. Then there's the soundtrack, which I love.

I guess I'm saying BG1 is, to me, the RPG equivalent of comfort food. I know there's a lot of ways in which it isn't totally nourishing or satisfying, but I've become so familiar with it that at the end of a long day, there's nothing I want more.

 

[ROARRR]

This thread is useless!
I closed it!

 

[Azarkon]

I think this argument works better with Bethesda than it does with Bioware, because Bethesda has changed developers quite often. The people who did Daggerfall are not the same people who did Morrowind (i remember reading that the lead designer of Daggerfall actually did work on Morrowind, but quit in the middle of development and was replaced by the guy who gave us Oblivion). Redguard and Battlespire were also made by different teams if i remember (wasn't one of them made by Todd himself? Forgot which).

But Bioware, it is always them. You just can't get around that fact. And seriously, both BG games have a lot more in common with modern Bioware games than some would ever want to admit. And let's be frank, David Gaydar was always David Gaydar. Its not like he went from Avellone levels of writing to the shit he is churning out today. The derp was always there.

David Gaider didn't work on Baldur's Gate.

What was your background before BioWare? Did you have a writing background? Obviously now you've written this whole Dragon Age novel.

DG: [laughs] I have a weird "getting into the industry" story, because it was accidental. Prior to that, I was in the service industry. I managed a hotel. I was an enthusiast.​

BioWare at the time had just finished Baldur's Gate 1, and [longtime BioWare designer] James Ohlen was going around to other people at BioWare and saying, "If you know anyone who has some interest in writing and design and who has written something game-related to completion, please let us know."

I had a friend who worked at BioWare, and I hadn't even heard of BioWare. I hadn't played Baldur's Gate at that time. But I had this play-by-mail RPG running on the side, just a little thing I was doing for some friends. I had written a rule book for it to completion -- a printed book. My friend Calvin gave it to James Ohlen -- and I didn't even know he'd done it.

So I got this phone call in my office at the hotel, saying, "We'd like to interview you." I'm like, "Who are you? And why are you interviewing me? For what?"

So I went in, and it was interesting, but it was an entry-level position for half the money I was making at the hotel, and I thought the whole BioWare thing seemed a little fly-by-night. I was like, "I'm not sure I want to leave my hotel job for some game developer... I'm just going to be out of a job in six months or something, right?"

So I said, "Thanks, but no thanks." I went back to my hotel on Monday, and my boss from Mississauga was there in my office, surprisingly. He was there to inform me that the management company that ran several hotels had been taken over, and the new company had their own managers. When a hotel is bought out, normally the general manager is let go. And because I could potentially ransack my client list or whatever, they walk you off the property.

I was shocked, but as I'm walking out of the door with my little box of stuff from my desk, I'm thinking, "You know, maybe that BioWare thing isn't so bad after all."

To think David Gaider didn't even want to be in the game industry but was forced to take the job because he got laid off from being a hotel manager...

 

[Ausdoerrt]

In before someone tries to explain (angrily but not very coherently) how BG1 was a deeply non-linear, exploration centric experience of the finest sort.

At that rate, someone could try to prove that Bethesda is the king of c&c, because you can choose to shoot or melee-attack any given monster, or to not shoot at all (I've actually seen that argument used, I kid you not).

Back to BG/BG2, when several dialogue choices lead to the same answer and only exist for flavor, heck yea I call that linear. Compare to Fallout, where being too much of a dick can mean being told to pike off or having your brains blown out.

 

[DraQ]

vs.

Spoiler

You know that anyone playing either TES or BG for their dialogue is a fucking dumbfuck, right?

At least the purpose of TES, or any topic based dialogue is mostly functional - the reason most NPCs in Morrowind have about as much personality as wikipedia page or GPS when spoken to is that most of the time when you choose to interact with a random stranger on the street, you want wikipedia- or GPS-like functionality.

And how do you call it when you think that something is a problem just because you feel (the need to be) offended by it personally even though everyone actually affected by it thinks it's ok?

 

[~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸-AIN'T]

You know that anyone playing either TES or BG for their dialogue is a fucking dumbfuck, right?

>Brings up how shitty BG is, using the dialogue as an example
>Gets shown that his favorite game's dialogues are even worse
>Anyone playing those games for their dialogues is stupid!
>Too lazy to find a mfw pic
>4chan memes

 

[DraQ]

>Completely misses the entire fucking point.
>r00fles!

MW dialogue, ugly or not, is functional and conforms to the keyword paradigm (dialogue primarily as way to obtain specific information), when it offers mutually exclusive options, they are usually meaningful enough to be needed. It works therefore it works.
BG dialogue is mostly content as dictated by dialogue tree paradigm but it's pretty poor content and features way too many fake choices (referred to as BW dialogue options for this very reason) and many bad ones (BW good and evil dialogue options).

 

[~*´¨¯¨`*·~-.¸-AIN'T]

I didn't miss the point. Saying "anyone playing either TES or BG for their dialogue is a fucking dumbfuck" while simultaneously talking about how terrible BG's dialogue is is retarded. It's commonly agreed that the dialogue is a weak point of both those games, so people who like them (at least on the dex) like them for other reasons. So why the fuck bring it up? It's not like BG fans are going to go "oh yeah, the dialogue is indeed bad. I guess it really is a bad game." It's like some going into a Morrowind thread, posting "lol game iz shit cuz wiki dialogs durrrr" and expecting to be taken seriously.

Also holy lol at Morrowind dialogue being "functional".

 

[DraQ]

I didn't miss the point.

You did:

Thread title says it all. BG1 and BG2 do not deserve to be lumped in with the Bioware's later shitty games. I suggest we have a forum for the "90's Classics", basically all BIS and Troika games, including games published by BIS. This will unfortunately include Lionheart, but what can you do.

But they are Bioware games through and through. Not as dumbed down (yet), but as soon as you see the dialogues, you *know*.

You mean this:

[good] I'll do it for free and suck your dick while we are at that.
[evil] I'll do it, but I demand payment for my time, expenses and, you know, risking my life and you won't get a free blowjob either.

?

This is the post over which meanwhileInPoland unexpectedly erupted with volcanic butthurt.

So yes,

Saying "anyone playing either TES or BG for their dialogue is a fucking dumbfuck"

is perfectly ok, even

while simultaneously talking about how terrible BG's dialogue is

.

It's commonly agreed that the dialogue is a weak point of both those games, so people who like them (at least on the dex) like them for other reasons.

Exactly. The difference is that Morrowind does provide such reasons.
You can bash BG for its shoddy dialogue because it doesn't, just like you can bash BG1 for shitty combat even though bashing PS:T for its even shittier one would completely miss the point.

So why the fuck bring it up?

Inducing oscillations in BHz range.

It works quite well.

Spoiler

And *I* haven't brought it up so I can't really answer this question, but the above works for me.

Also holy lol at Morrowind dialogue being "functional".

In what particular way is it not?

 

[meanwhileInPoland]

when you choose to interact with a random stranger on the street, you want wikipedia- or GPS-like functionality

yes, please tell us about great functionality of bland walking wikipedias instead of dialogues with style and substance even from a random stranger on the streets of hive....

 

[Ninjerk]

quote his av m8